Wainwrights

[Noise]

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I know that they don't NEED veg or pasta or rice per se, but I know it doesn't harm them and they love a meal like that once in a while (and it's not even once a week). as treats they get dried tripe, or dried fish, even, shock horror, dog treat biscuits.


- Read the clinical evidence in the post, you keep saying " i know it doesn't harm them" maybe you should trying eating raw meat and bone for a couple of meals each week?? by the way as a human you have a sacculated colon so all that lovely health raw meat and bone will sit and digest and will not cause you any problems :x

what is the measure by which you can tell a dog has been harmed by its diet?

 

[whippetmad]

I,ve never tried Wainwrights.............but we do feed our dogs on raw,like Jinnyfizz.We buy it from our local butcher.They have it with Greyhound biscuits and love it!! They look well and happy on this diet.We also give them veg from our roast and like Berta if we do too much pasta or rice,they have that as well and the odd sardine too. We had a nice comment yesterday saying how fit Peter looks,which is down to good excercise and a good balanced diet,he came third in his Veteran class out of a good strong class(he has'nt been shown for two years)

 

[bertha]

They get fat, or their coat looks dreadful!!!! I don't know. They are carnivores the same as us, only we have a different digestive system. Cutting down on eating meat to help reduce your carbon foot prints is ridiculous. The way things are going right now, so many scientists are no doubting the data on global warming. The glaciers on the Himalayers are not melting after all!!!!!!!

We can go round and round on dog food, nobody is going to agree, we all have our ideas on what is right. There are too many food manufacturers around and it is a mine field.

 

[Hula]

Humans are not carnivores and neither are dogs .

The only true carnivore is the cat .

 

[~Annie~]

I have questions :thumbsup: (and no axe to grind, although I might have my own ideas as to the answers ) )

Why do those who feed mostly raw/cooked meat add biscuit?

Why do the dog food manufacturers include grain in their complete foods?

Do dogs not need the micronutrients that come from vegetables, e.g. carotenoids?

Do domestic dogs live longer than primitive/wild dogs because their diets can be (I'm not saying they will always be) an improvement on the all meat diet they would eat in the wild?

Don't wild dogs eat wild fruits?

Should add I'm not disputing for one moment Masta's description of a dogs digestive system. Just one look in a dogs mouth makes clear what it's natural diet is ... all those teeth for ripping and tearing and crushing and none for actually chewing

Annie

 

[oakmoorehill]

I changed my dogs from being fed on greyhound food with pasta and veggies mixed in to raw minced chicken in the summer. Since then many people have commented on the improvement in their condition and their coats are shinning.. The greyhounds and setter also get raw marrow bones every week curtesy of a friend who tells her butcher she has 2 small dogs and 2 big dogs. The whippets also occassionally get raw meaty lamb bones if she has more than enough for her own dogs. They still love their veggies and William will kill for a bowl of pasta.

Oh and last weekend Owen was happily chewing on his meaty lamb bone when OH came in and dropped a piece of raw carrot on the floor. Owen left his bone and ate the carrot. OH then went and fetched him a whole carrot and gave him that again he left his bone for the carrot. He also loves cauliflower especially the big thick stem at the bottom and the leaves of the cauli also cabbage all raw.

 

[~Annie~]

Mine love raw veg too, and apples, and Finn takes himself off bilberrying and then blackberrying on our autumn walks I always assume that they enjoy both the crunch and the sweetness of these things

 

[masta]

Having done a quick google, there are one or two manufacturers that produce vegetarian dog feed (Wafcol for one), and there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest you can feed your dog a vegetarian diet.
I'm really not advocating or arguing that dogs should be fed a veggie diet (honest), as already stated they are carnivores, but couldn't see the harm in feeding a diet where one or two meals are purely veggie. I was just musing out loud (and I should know better on a public dog forum (w00t) ). I don't have the book to hand at the mo' but I seem to remember reading in, 'Give a Dog a Bone', that dogs can skip the odd meat meal with a veggie one in the week.

If I had a PAH near me I'd probably give the Wainright food a try too...but it's Nature Diet for my two, which they love, with an idea to swap one meal a week with a veggie.

but why would you need or want to do that? why does your dog need to "skip a meat meal" you say you "carn't see the harm" below is the clinical evidence-

Dogs and cats have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested (among other things). People know this; this is why they tell you that vegetables and grains have to be preprocessed for your dog to get anything out of them. But even then, feeding vegetables and grains to a carnivorous animal is a questionable practice.

Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. Thus, feeding dogs as though they were omnivores taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food instead of just producing normal amounts of the enzymes needed to digest proteins and fats (which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through chewing and tearing and their enzymes are released).

Nor do dogs have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant matter—even preprocessed plant matter—are unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 40-60% of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 40-60% (ideally!) of the vitamins and minerals it needs. To compensate for this, the manufacturer must add a higher concentration of vitamins and minerals than the dog actually needs.

Quoting Dr Ian Billinghurst in, 'Give a Dog a Bone', "Because dogs are omnivores, vegetables, particularly green leafy vegetables should form a substantial part of their diet." He goes on to explain that vegetables supply main nutrients and help to prevent diseases of the digestory tract and degenerative diseases.

There are obviously conflicting thoughts on this view, having read your information above. However, Ian Billinghurst does concede vegetables need to be fed raw and crushed, which does point towards the theories you've quoted above.

I think the most important thing he says (im my opinion only) is that a balanced diet consists of not every meal being balanced , so long as there is a balance of nutrients over 3 - 7 days. I read in that, that one meal can be a veggie one if need be, (best served raw and pulped)

Why would I want to do this you ask? Fair question...I just want to help reduce the impact feeding my dogs has on the environment. With a growing human and dog population, I want to find a way that I can personally reduce my

carbon footprint and reduce the number of animals that go to slaughter to feed me and my dogs. I recognise I need to reduce my meat intake as well, which is currently what I'm doing. It's just something I feel strongly about....but I don't want to force my views on others :b ...everyone has to make their own choice. I just can't help commenting on things occasionally,...which is how this all started and we went off topic. :-

Thanks for your reply, i think there are maybe easier ways of reducing your "Carbon Footprint" ie getting rid of your car,solar heating etc than trying to make a carnivour eat a meal that they are not able to digest correctly. why do you own a dog if you feel strongly re slaughter of animals to feed them, not knocking your beliefs just find it hard to understand if you hold those views why force them on the dog?

Ah..now..that's a bit unkind..and I don't want to get drawn into a long winded debate. I love dogs...and I'm not againt the farming and slaughter of animals (I'm not a veggie!!), I'm just concerned about reducing my own impact in a small way (and not just via the dogs...I do try and reduce my carbon foortprint in other ways too!).

Anyway...I apologise folks...this really has gone off topic.

I'm sorry if took my post as being unkind it was not my intention, you have every right to your views and practices, but you aired them on a forum so opening them to debate

 

[masta]

I know that they don't NEED veg or pasta or rice per se, but I know it doesn't harm them and they love a meal like that once in a while (and it's not even once a week). as treats they get dried tripe, or dried fish, even, shock horror, dog treat biscuits.


- Read the clinical evidence in the post, you keep saying " i know it doesn't harm them" maybe you should trying eating raw meat and bone for a couple of meals each week?? by the way as a human you have a sacculated colon so all that lovely health raw meat and bone will sit and digest and will not cause you any problems :x

what is the measure by which you can tell a dog has been harmed by its diet?

It was you that said "i know it doesn't harm them" my measure is anatomically dogs are not supposed to eat vegatable matter so why do it? i have a diesel car but i never fill it with petrol

 

[Noise]

I know that they don't NEED veg or pasta or rice per se, but I know it doesn't harm them and they love a meal like that once in a while (and it's not even once a week). as treats they get dried tripe, or dried fish, even, shock horror, dog treat biscuits.


- Read the clinical evidence in the post, you keep saying " i know it doesn't harm them" maybe you should trying eating raw meat and bone for a couple of meals each week?? by the way as a human you have a sacculated colon so all that lovely health raw meat and bone will sit and digest and will not cause you any problems :x

what is the measure by which you can tell a dog has been harmed by its diet?

It was you that said "i know it doesn't harm them" my measure is anatomically dogs are not supposed to eat vegatable matter so why do it? i have a diesel car but i never fill it with petrol

from what I can see it doesn't!!! their coats are shiny and soft, they are well muscled and fit, they're not hyperactive or lethargic, they have beautiful poos and are in good health.

I feed them a dry complete. and they get raw tripe and raw mince every now and then too. that is their main diet.

 

[bertha]

I know that they don't NEED veg or pasta or rice per se, but I know it doesn't harm them and they love a meal like that once in a while (and it's not even once a week). as treats they get dried tripe, or dried fish, even, shock horror, dog treat biscuits.


- Read the clinical evidence in the post, you keep saying " i know it doesn't harm them" maybe you should trying eating raw meat and bone for a couple of meals each week?? by the way as a human you have a sacculated colon so all that lovely health raw meat and bone will sit and digest and will not cause you any problems :x

what is the measure by which you can tell a dog has been harmed by its diet?

It was you that said "i know it doesn't harm them" my measure is anatomically dogs are not supposed to eat vegatable matter so why do it? i have a diesel car but i never fill it with petrol

from what I can see it doesn't!!! their coats are shiny and soft, they are well muscled and fit, they're not hyperactive or lethargic, they have beautiful poos and are in good health.

I feed them a dry complete. and they get raw tripe and raw mince every now and then too. that is their main diet.

What worries me about complete is how much it swells up if you soak it, quite alarming.

 

[Jan Doherty]

Getting back to Wainwrights>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I normally feed Arden Grange to my lot and they do well on it.

When rearing a litter I used to use Berties and Natures menu. This time round I opted to get wainwrights and Natures Menu because it was easily available for new owners as there seems to be a Pets at home on every street corner. It appears to very palatable and coats and poos are good.

It appears to be good value.

 

[moonglow]

Word of warning re giving dogs whole veggies,one of my dogs stole a raw carrot & swallowed a largish chunk.As he obviously couldn't digest it,a few hours later he was in a lot of pain.Fortunately a trip to the vets & a muscle relaxant solved the problem,but the outcome could have been a lot worse!!!

This is why raw veggies should always be pulverised.

 

[pippywhippet]

I know that they don't NEED veg or pasta or rice per se, but I know it doesn't harm them and they love a meal like that once in a while (and it's not even once a week). as treats they get dried tripe, or dried fish, even, shock horror, dog treat biscuits.


- Read the clinical evidence in the post, you keep saying " i know it doesn't harm them" maybe you should trying eating raw meat and bone for a couple of meals each week?? by the way as a human you have a sacculated colon so all that lovely health raw meat and bone will sit and digest and will not cause you any problems :x

what is the measure by which you can tell a dog has been harmed by its diet?

It was you that said "i know it doesn't harm them" my measure is anatomically dogs are not supposed to eat vegatable matter so why do it? i have a diesel car but i never fill it with petrol

from what I can see it doesn't!!! their coats are shiny and soft, they are well muscled and fit, they're not hyperactive or lethargic, they have beautiful poos and are in good health.

I feed them a dry complete. and they get raw tripe and raw mince every now and then too. that is their main diet.

What worries me about complete is how much it swells up if you soak it, quite alarming.

Complete dry foods which swell up are the brands with lots of added bulking agents

I feed orijen, which is grain free, and 70% meat, no fillers. It doesnt swell

 

[Snap Dog]

Us dogs eatind only this food http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_re...=1730&cat=8

its better then Orijen.

 

[pippywhippet]

Us dogs eatind only this food http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_re...=1730&cat=8its better then Orijen.

They are given the same rating!! Both are head and shoulders above most dry foods available in the UK, just a shame that many of the brands available in the UK are not rated to give a comparison.

 

[Jan Doherty]

I have heard that Origen is very good but it gets back to where do you buy it form and does it have to be delivered?

 

[Snap Dog]

Us dogs eatind only this food http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_re...=1730&cat=8its better then Orijen.

They are given the same rating!! Both are head and shoulders above most dry foods available in the UK, just a shame that many of the brands available in the UK are not rated to give a comparison.

Yes, its same rating, but to my dogs, Artemis is better then Orijen. My dogs have eaten Orijeni a number of occasions, but it caused a younger dog allergies. Too high a protein.

Estonia does not have many dog foods available, so the choice is very limited. In order to give your dog the best to be found to seller, who would like to see high-quality food landed hard.

 

[Noise]

Us dogs eatind only this food http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_re...=1730&cat=8its better then Orijen.

They are given the same rating!! Both are head and shoulders above most dry foods available in the UK, just a shame that many of the brands available in the UK are not rated to give a comparison.

Yes, its same rating, but to my dogs, Artemis is better then Orijen. My dogs have eaten Orijeni a number of occasions, but it caused a younger dog allergies. Too high a protein.

Estonia does not have many dog foods available, so the choice is very limited. In order to give your dog the best to be found to seller, who would like to see high-quality food landed hard.

you might be able to get hold of Canidae, and the new premium Acana is supposed to be very similar to orijen.

 

[pippywhippet]

Both orijen and acana grasslands are available online from zooplus- they have always provided a very good service, and free postage on a large bag