Wcra 2nd Champs Results

[Strike Whippets]

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Well , what are the times for the 20lb winners over 150 nowdays ? I would love to know. Thanks . Scotty.

Depends on which track they are running on, weather, quality of the surface etc...........which you obviously know, but then after that .......

These times are from 3 of the Champs and the times vary from 9.73 sec's to 10.31 sec's (but we had torrental rain that day).........Judy will know doubt know the average 20 lbs time though

 

[Smiffy@VeronnaV]

So let me get this right - from the thread so far I gather that you think it's OK for people to knowingly race at pedigree whippet races a dog which has BESAPs in its line, even though that particular line was deemed to be non-pedigree and any offspring from that line was banned from racing in pedigree whippet racing? And that the rationale behind this is because the non-ped blood line will make it faster and then you have a better chance of winning? And that the WCRA is living in the past and should re-evaluate its standards to accommodate this line of thinking. Oh, and let us not forget that it will enhance the gene pool whilst we are about it, and we all know how important that is! But it's supposed to be OK because you can show one of these dogs but not race them at pedigree whippet races.

Well, as the poor sod who is the end user I say thank God for the WCRA who have the courage to uphold the standard of pedigree whippets. When I buy a pedigree, I expect it to be just that. Peds cost serious money, so why would I want to part with the same amount of money for a dud? Oh I forgot, it's going to be faster, so that's OK then. But I want to know that the dog is going to fit within the standards for that particular breed, with all its associated chacteristics - not something which might have something in its back line which makes it something else. I have grandchildren, so character is very important indeed. If people like them so much, and think they are so great, then buy them and go to the non-ped track and wipe the board and leave the peds to run with peds. But to say it should be acceptable to use these dogs is obscene. IF they are not pedigrees - even unto the 12th generation, they should not run on the ped circuit. And I don't care if the pure bred whippet is not as fast, and will never be as fast, because the pedigree whippet is more that just a racing machine.

The point of having a standard is to maintain the integrity of the breed, so I say well done WCRA for having the guts to stand up and be counted. Who knows, perhaps one day the Whippet Club and KC will find the backbone to do the same.

In case you have forgotten, the WCRA hold the right, as does every affiliated club, to refuse to admit or accept any dog or bitch whom they deem to have an unacceptable pedigree. How else are they to prevent non-peds from entering the chain? As they clearly can't rely upon the KC to do the job for them!

One more comment, I would have thought that observation alone was not only insufficient, but unacceptable in determining whether or not any whippet was either pedigree or non-pedigree. I understand that one couple on the racing scene had dreadful problems due to just such an 'expert' putting the rumour into the rumour mill that they didn't 'look like pedigrees, nor run like pedigrees'. Our brothers and sisters on the show scene have 'chunky' looking whippets but no-one says they are non-peds!

If people want to improve the gene pool then let them do it, with integrity, not by cheating. Blood lines don't fall off the end, the genes are still in the line so it would be unacceptable to me to think that known non-ped blood is in any line which races under the aegis of pedigree. When we want to win, and that is the only end-game, then we should buy a non-ped and race it on that circuit. But until then, a pedigree whippet should be just that, a pedigree. :luck:

 

[BeeJay]

Firstly we must remember that we are talking about KC (in their country of origin)registered whippets. And furthermore whippets who would be accepted into the UK's stud book with no problems ie they are pedigree whippets.

What I was taking about was the inclusion in a pedigree of 1 non-pedigree whippet. If there is only one of them AND if it's several generations back ie over 5 generations back then the non-pedigree blood is so diluted as to make it meaningless in any terms be it appearance or performance.

>IF they are not pedigrees - even unto the 12th generation, they should not run on the ped circuit.

Because I keep a pedigree whippet database I know how often what is deemed to be a KC registered pedigree whippet does not have a full 10 generation pedigree. Dogs with known non-pedigree parentage were still being accepted as KC registered whippets in the early 1970's. eg Wishy Was.

I've had a quick look at one of your dogs and I've noticed that Tarbuck of Heatherpard is on the 5th line his pedigree is below. You've also got Woodside Beauty (parents unknown) on both sides - not just in Tarbuck of Heatherpard. Please don't think that I'm saying that this particular dog of yours isn't a pedigree or that shouldn't have been given a passport I'm certainly not. Merely just pointing out that for every whippet to have a 10 gen ped let alone a 12 gen ped it isn't possible and that because they don't it doesn't make them anything other than a KC registered pedigree whippet. It's a much more complicated issue than just having a full 10 gen pedigree.

 

[Mark Roberts]

Have to say I agree with Carmel on this 1.

but I will say if you go far enough back you can questions the pedigrees of most breeds as they all had to start somware.

 

[BeeJay]

Sigh. Okay let's try this again. I've just tried posting this ped several times I've obviously lost the knack. :b

In this case Miss Mouse does have registered parents. It maybe that she was never registered herself or that her original registered name was lost.

The last line traces back to a bitch called Blue Lady she most likely features in every racing bred whippet's ped running today.

 

[BeeJay]

>Have to say I agree with Carmel on this 1.

Just going off to check on your dogs peds Mark. :lol: :thumbsup:

Actually one of mine can't be traced back to 10 gens fully and he's very well bred. He just simply goes back a long way very quickly.

What people forget is that during the 2nd WW paperwork. Dogs names slightly changed, not everyone was literate, the KC couldn't always find the paperwork on dogs parents or maybe the breeders just didn't know the registered names. Also of course the gene pool shrank and had to be rebuilt using non KC registered dogs.

Sorry I can't remember when the stud book closed but I'm sure that Judy and Terry can. I am guessing that it must have been as late as the early 70's. To many of you that will mean before you were born but it's in my life time.

Like I said earlier it's a very complicated issue and I'm very glad that I'm not having to make the decisions about it.

 

[Mark Roberts]

Were at a point now when introducing anything suspect would only cause problems within racing.

if you read my post again i've said if you go far enough back you can discredit any KC but that doesn't mean you should delibratly introduce any lines that might be suspect. (or even proven to be suspect)

 

[Strike Whippets]

Carmel, i think your reply was rather pointed and personal in places !!.........

If you can take a show bred Whippet (no offense), and after only 2 or 3 generations of breeding the line to a racing line, the line can easily produce open class Whippets,(they become faster :b ) ........why is it not reversed with a non ped thats generations back in a pedigree line ?? , this in my eyes will dilute down the non peds "characteristics" as it's input would be minuscule .......please correct me if i'm wrong !!!

 

[tlewis]

The point of having a standard is to maintain the integrity of the breed, so I say well done WCRA for having the guts to stand up and be counted.  Who knows, perhaps one day the Whippet Club and KC will find the backbone to do the same.

One more comment, I would have thought that observation alone was not only insufficient, but unacceptable in determining whether or not any whippet was either pedigree or non-pedigree.  I understand that one couple on the racing scene had dreadful problems due to just such an 'expert' putting the rumour into the rumour mill that they didn't 'look like pedigrees, nor run like pedigrees'.  Our brothers and sisters on the show scene have 'chunky' looking whippets but no-one says they are non-peds!

Good post and I see your point of view.

I wonder exactly why the KC, The Whippet Club and the WCRA came to different conclusions regarding the Besaps dogs so long ago? That is surely the crux of the problem to-day. If all had agreed they were non-peds twenty five years ago it wouldn't be a topic of conversation now.

How did this happen?

You say and rightly so,

"I would have thought that observation alone was not only insufficient, but unacceptable in determining whether or not any whippet was either pedigree or non-pedigree."

Isn't that what was used in determining the authenticity of the Besaps dogs or is there some other hard evidence? DNA tests or even simple blood typing that was surely available back then for instance.

 

[Judy]

Nicely put Terry. I asked Carmel about this seeming contradiction in her post last night. "you can't have it both ways" said I. "Yes I can" said she. - Well that stumped me

She did buy me a drink though :cheers:

Actually she had a point - she meant that you can't change decisions retrospectively but that now we can DNA test - that should be the decider - At least I think thats what you meant, didn't you Carmel ? :thumbsup:

 

[BeeJay]

Nicely put Terry? Enquiring minds need to know. Did you mean Terry?

 

[Mark Roberts]

She might have even meant Tony? (tlewis)

 

[Judy]

Oops - Yes I meant Tony. Another senior moment :b

 

[Mark Roberts]

just been up to the Northern, The ground after the rain is looking/feeling spot on ready for Sunday.

1 word of warning drive to the speed limit around the area of the track the Police are having a crack down on speeders. :angry: (and before anyone asks no they didn't get me! for once)

 

[BeeJay]

Glad to hear that the ground is good And how are YOU feeling Mark?

 

[Mark Roberts]

A lot better today thank you.

 

[Strike Whippets]

Glad the grounds good :thumbsup: .....and i'm so pleased your feeling better :huggles:

 

[Mark Roberts]

The ground was realy dry but due to the heavy rain this week the ground today looked & felt spot on plenty of give but not muddy.

are you Camping Hannah!

 

[Strike Whippets]

Yes we are camping in our new tent :thumbsup: .......so watch out as the air is bound to be blue when we are trying to put it up .......We are coming up Saturday afternoon as my nice boss is now working Saturday afternoon for me .......blimy just realised it's TOMORROW (w00t) :wacko: .......well i've had alot on this week :b

 

[Mark Roberts]

See you tommorow Hannah.