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Discussion in 'Dog Sports' started by Tony Taylor, Jan 27, 2001.

  1. Tony Taylor

    Tony Taylor New Member Registered

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    I`d like to welcome everyone to this forum and thank Nigel for allowing us onto the site .Thanks mate !

    We (thats me,Michelle and Sam ) have only been racing the last 7yrs but were pretty keen - you may know us through our dogs Soapy Joe and Hobgoblin (and hopefully soon True Faith ) Please feel free to post on any topic concerned with the non-pedigree scene , even if it is just to say hello .
     
  2. Guest

    Hi Tony,

    Just wanted to say that I love your dog's names - so does my husband, JOE!  Will watch your posts with interest.  Since I live in Canada and am somewhat in the dark about the racing scene in England, can you tell me the difference in your group, are the dogs lurchers?
     
  3. Tony Taylor

    Tony Taylor New Member Registered

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    Hi Samantha,

    Thanks for the post.

    In Britain there are 2 types of whippet; Kennel Club (K.C.) registered - pedigree whippets and unregistered - non-pedigree whippets.You probably are familiar with K.C. whippets but if you have any queries I`m sure the pedigree forums will be happy to help .

    Non-pedigree whippets are dogs not registered with the K.C. but are of whippet type , in that they follow the breed standard , although this is due to the nature of their function rather than a deliberate breeding ploy .They do have pedigrees - I can go back 10 generations with mine.

    Non-pedi`s have 2 main racing bodies; the British Whippet Racing Association (B.W.R.A,) and the National Whippet Racing Federation (N.W.R.F.) which run a calendar of races - both straight and bend (bends run on greyhound tracks ) , although various clubs also hold open races ( open to all  as opposed to just club members )

    The main difference between pedigree and non- pedi whippets is that most ( all ) non-pedi strains contain a fair amount of greyhound blood in their breeding and secondly racing is their main function (apart from being pets ) and hence speed is the main criteria in breeding , showing and hunting or coursing are not considered in breeding . As a result non- pedi whippets tend to be much faster than pedigree`s - 8.3 seconds for 150yrds is not uncommon for good top weight dogs .

    Lurchers are usually a greyhound cross or composite with collie or terrier in the mix . Confusingly a lurcher may be a sighthound - sighthound ( often called longdogs )cross so a whippet- greyhound may be classed as a lurcher and are used as such , but non-pedi`s are better classified as whippets .

    When I get the hang of computers I`ll try and put a picture up to show the difference.
     
  4. Judy

    Judy New Member Registered

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    Hi Tony

    Being a pedigree racer, there's a lot I don't know about the non-ped scene :confused: (although I glean what I can from Whippet News). Do you have a height/weight limit for your dogs? Also as regards the Top Ten, when does your season start and finish?
     
  5. Tony Taylor

    Tony Taylor New Member Registered

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    Hi Judy

    Re: Top ten , I believe it runs from the first top ten open ,usually in February , in the whippet news to the last top ten open, usually in December .

    Re:Height and weight limits , the height part is easy - there is no height limit with either the BWRA or the NWRF .

       Weight limits vary with the racing body ;

       BWRA runs handicap races upto 32lbs and separate scratch (all on level mark ) races for whippets upto 36lbs , upto 40lbs and No limit (ie no weight limit )

       NWRF runs handicap races upto 35lbs and separate scratch races for whippets 35-40lbs and for 40lbs +

       Hope this makes things a little clearer !

       Tony
     
  6. Guest

    Hi Tony,

    thank you so much for your reply to my questions regarding non-ped racing.  It would seem that the non-ped dogs are bred so that "form follows function".  I'm very interested in learning and hearing more of the non-ped racing info, especially as we have nothing similar here in Canada :(   I hope that you and others will post often to the board, and I apologize in advance for any foolish question I might ask, but I am very interested and look forward to the photos.   ;)
     
  7. Nigel

    Nigel New Member Registered

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    For this week I've put on the home page a picture of Whippet Club Racing Champion Flybynite and her sire WCRCh Time Flies.

    These are pedigree racing whippets probably fairly typical of the breed. Flybynite won the Top Ten competition 2 years running 1998 and 1999 and was runner up last year. Time Flies was top stud dog for 1999.

    If someone would like to email me some equivalent photos of non-pedigree racing dogs I'll put them on the front page next week as a comparison.
     
  8. Guest

    Hello

    Thank you Nigel for the photos of Flybynite and Time Flys (ped. whippets).  I'm very interested in seeing photos of the non-peds.  I have a question which may seem very stupid, forgive me as I'm new to the racing scene.  I see from the posted photos that both of these whippets are of rather straight rear angulation.  I've also heard from racing people here in Canada and in the States, that the best racers are straightly angled in the rear.  I'm sure we've all seen some "overly" angulated show whippets (meaning that the rear and front angulation do not match and the dog "outdrives" its forward motion).  Can you tell me about the angulation of racing whippets?  Is a straighter rear angulation desired and if so, how is the front angulation, still with well-laid back shoulders (45degree), is the upper arm even or longer than the shoulders.  Also, how low set are the hocks and are they true?  Also, I'm still trying to locate a copy of the U.K breed standard.  Does anyone have a copy or know where I can find it on the web?  Thanks for any response to this post. :confused:
     
  9. Nigel

    Nigel New Member Registered

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    I think the non-pedi's must be a bit camera shy :) no one has sent me any photo's - so come on I know there must some good examples somwhere.
    Racing dogs are certainly straighter in the rear leg - I'll try and get Judy to write a few words of wisdom about the subject - she's a lot more knowlegable than me.I'm sure we must have a copy of the breed standard somewhere - I'll see if I can find it, copy :shocked: it and email to you.
     
  10. dawn

    dawn New Member Registered

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    Samantha

    I posted you an address of teh UK standard BUT missed off one (or two:wink:)important point.

    Male animals should have two apparaently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum.

    If you need more please get in touch :biggrin:

    Dawn
     
  11. Guest

    Thank you for the breed standard, which I've now received.  I'm looking forward to any photos of the non-peds that someone will send :confused:, and also to Judy's post.  This board is wonderful for discussions - thanks Nigel!
     
  12. Judy

    Judy New Member Registered

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    Hi Samantha

    Re angulation - Nigel has embarrassed me as I am not so much knowledgeable :sad: as just interested.

    Whilst I agree that, on the whole, racing dogs often have less angulation all round than is liked in the show ring (is this thread in the wrong forum?) I have always noticed straight front angulation rather than rear angulation. The books on the subject say that steep shoulders goes with sprinting speed whilst more laid back shoulders increases endurance (probably better for coursing don't you think?). Certainly sighthounds have more upright shoulders than most other "non-running" breeds. They also say that well bent stifles, in any animal, actually increase speed because they increase reach. This might not fit with what you say the racing people tell you but maybe whereas some racing dogs have straighter stifles than show whippets (to match their straighter fronts ?) the point is that they are still more bent than many breeds not bred for speed. Upper arms are always longer than shoulder blades in a long legged dog (unlike horses) and even very short legged dogs have upper arms about equal in length to their shoulder blades.

    I have looked an looked at racing dogs to try and see why some are faster than others but I just can't tell. I think it's because, when it comes to racing, their character and will to win are just as important.

    :confused:
     
  13. Guest

    Hi Judy - thanks for your reply, don't you just love it when a husband puts you on the spot?  Mine does it to me all the time, he even went so far as to volunteer me to give a talk at a school - how nice of him.  Of course the reasoning is that he has "confidence in my abilities" :)  Perhaps this should be in the forum on racing, however I'd love to hear others opinions on this and perhaps Tony might have something to add.  I do agree with you regarding angulation being overall straighter in both front and rear then in some show stock. And I'm also in agreement as to length of upper arm being slightly longer than shoulder blade, allowing for free movement and a long reach.  A straight shoulder blade would not allow for this reach, but I've always thought that since the rear is the "driving force", that an angulated rear would give better "thrust" and hence more speed then a straight rear and angled front?  What's others opinions on this?

    Inquirying minds want to know :)
     
  14. Nigel

    Nigel New Member Registered

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    :biggrin:
     
  15. Guest

    To Nigel and Judy:   For all the things that husbands can do to make you crazy, there are also the many things they do to make life wonderful - like babysitting whippets when your at a show, or buying that "special" dog just because you want it, or trying to understand what you're talking about when you relate things from this board!  All in all, a happy whippet couple is a joy to behold and a joy to know!
     
  16. Judy

    Judy New Member Registered

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    Hi Samantha

    That's us all allright "a joy to behold" ;) There ought be an emoticon for throwing up! :biggrin:

    We seem to be in agreement about angulation. A more laid back shoulder might increase forward reach but to what end ? Forward thrust is only provided by the front leg when the paw is on the ground behind the centre of gravity. Surely rearward reach by the front (and hind for that matter) leg would be more important. On the other hand (there's always one of those :smile: ) more forward reach gives more time for the paw to accelerate before it hits the ground. I suppose there has to be an optimum compromise. Am I just ramblig incomprehesibly ? :cheesy: I've always found it a fascinating subject though and have read quite a lot but the more I read the more confused I get. Maybe that's age catching up. NOTE NIGEL, I DIDN'T SAY OLD AGE!

    I'd love to hear what others have to say. Not about my age though!
     
  17. Tony Taylor

    Tony Taylor New Member Registered

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    Re: stifle angulation

    To be honest I have never really looked at my dogs, or others , from this point of view ! Being only intrested in racing the different show points are somewhat lost on me I`m afraid.

    I have compared my own against photo`s of pedigree racing dogs and show and it seems if some of the show stock is somewhat exagerated - although the show stance may acount for this.
     
  18. June Jonigk

    June Jonigk Active Member Registered

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    Now come on you lot - my brain's in a spin :confused:

    I am completely lost with all the angulation, forward thrust (I thought that was rockets!) centre of gravity etc.

    Only joking, although I do find it a bit difficult to follow exactly what you all mean.  I think I need to see the comparison in real life to understand.  

    Now I can vouch for Judy and Nigel being a happy whippet couple, and also that Judy is not suffering from old age - how could she be? She's the same age as me? :biggrin:

    I can also tell you that Judy is very knowlegeable, she's just very modest. ;)

    (Edited by June Jonigk at 12:52 am on Feb. 9, 2001)
     
  19. Guest

    Hi All,

    Sorry to go on so - sometimes I get carried away.  Just curious about the angulation not from a show prespective, but it interest me in that "form follows function".  As a running breed does the standard best describe a dog who can be a racer/rabbit hunter,  but more interestingly, does the standard differ from actual whippets who perform outstandingly in doing what a whippet should be able to do?

    (there I go again - apologies :eek:  )
     
  20. Judy

    Judy New Member Registered

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    Thanks June - I'll pay you later!

    Samantha - Good question. According to the old books, thw whippets that were first shown in this country, toward the end of the 19th century, were taken off the race tracks but I would imagine that whippets were originally used for coursing, wouldn't you?  Perhaps the questin should be - how well do the very best coursing dogs do in the show ring? I suppose interpretation of the standard comes into it aswell.
     

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