Why might an owner not want his dog neutered

[Ari_RR]

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Maybe stick to Rhodies, huh?

Yes, agree, limited exposure here.. 1st hand with Rhodies and Himalayans.
I have to confess, we have a Himalayan girl too.

See, I am not against neutering. There are certainly situations where neutering makes sense.
I am just against blind, poorly informed neutering, looking to quickly simplify some (mostly social) aspects of dog ownership, without understanding the impact on the dog, or just not caring about the impact, and not willing to invest time into training and management.
My only advice and plea to those who consider neutering is - read, research, understand what it does and does not, weigh risks and benefits, then decide.

This research is hard - too many opinions out there on the internet, many of them "old school". From the same old school which taught housetraining by sticking puppy's face into his poop when he had an accident in the house.
Everything is hard - reading and figuring what's trustworthy and what's a pile of horse pucky is hard.
Walking at 5 am is hard.
Carrying puppy outside several times during a cold night when housetraining is hard. Sticking his face into his poop seems much easier and quicker - but please, good people, let's read and think before adopting this method. And let's read and think before scheduling the surgery too. That's all I am really advocating for, when it comes to neutering. We didn't commit to doing things the easy way when we picked up a puppy, we committed to doing them the right way.

To end on a light note - here is our little cute Himalayan. And, by the way - she is spayed! The breeder did not offer to spay her. We made a decision to do this, when she was a year old or so.

 

[Caro Perry]

My cats have always been neutered - it's the price they have to pay for being allowed their freedom to roam outside. (And yes I know, whether cats should be allowed to roam is a whole other topic!)

 

[JudyN]

Mine too, but not until they were 6 months. Having a look round the internet, it looks as if 4 months is now recommended, as some can hit puberty before 6 months.

 

[ThierryHassid]

Has the owner said why they don't want to neuter him? In your postion I would simply explain to them that you're not prepared to let him off lead because you can't be responsible for him attacking other dogs. Then it's down to the owner to decide if his dog would be happier without his gonads, but with his freedom.

However... being entire might not be the cause of the problem, and neutering him might not fix it. My neutered male, like many, doesn't like entire males and has been aggressive with them (though he's mellowed a lot over the years, this was a big problem when he was around 2-3). He has also been aggressive with an older, infirm dog - that one caught me right out of the blue - from experience I was sure he'd be fine with it, but there was something about that dog he really didn't like.

So even if this dog was neutered, it's not guaranteed that neutering will help.

WELL WELL ...

My name is Thierry Hassid and I have been walking packs of 6 to 12 dogs offleash for a while now.

Offleash means they are capable of doing what they feel like if not directed, but they are, that is my role.

Greeting other dogs, observing how it happens, will provide you with some kind of answer.

YES, male dogs that are not sterilized may act up.

Does it happen all the time, no. But does it happen? YES, ABSOLUTELY YES.

Now, mind me, by tell you that I go against every single of my professors in the Ethology program that I am enrolled in.

The keyword here is PACK. Or GROUP as ethologists would call it.

Sterilization DOES HELP in MALE DOG vs MALE DOG encounters.

Those are my very humble observations and 2 cents.

Be safe.

Thierry Hassid.

 

[JudyN]

Sterilization DOES HELP in MALE DOG vs MALE DOG encounters.

Sterilization CAN help in male x male encounters. But in a 6-year-old male who attacks a neutered elderly male who was minding his own business... I'd be a lot less confident that it would help than if, say, it was two entire 3-year-old males. Would it be worth trying? Possibly... but we shouldn't neuter as a knee-jerk reaction to an unwanted behaviour hoping it's going to 'fix' a problem without bothering with any training or management.

 

[leashedForLife]

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Claiming that “only unethical breeders” would do pediatric desex just won’t wash.

In the U-S, dog breeders placing a purebred pup with a serious heritable trait in a pet home, have been snipping those specific pups for decades, to prevent these pups of their breeding from passing on deleterious traits; while that’s not wholesale ped-desex of entire litters, it’s been going on for a long time, & it’s certainly an improvement over the old standard when i was a child, when such pups were unceremoniously killed, often by drowning them shortly after birth.
Nobody bothered, at that time, to take such damaged goods to the vet, & PAY to have them humanely euthanized. That was seen as a waste of time & money. // I’m glad times have changed, & attitudes changed with them.


In the UK, per the Cats Protection website, some 900 participating vet practices on their list, offer “early neuter” for kittens:

Cats Protection | Neutering | Find Vet


Many responsible & ethical purebred breeders have their litters desexed prior to change of ownership, so the kittens are at home with them, while they heal - it’s generally done around 8 to 10-WO, so sutures are removed or absorbed & any shaved hair grows back, before they depart for their buyers’ homes at 12-WO to 14-WO.

Moggies given away via an ad, or who are sold cheap [possibly from a cardboard box in the boot of a car, to random passersby in a parking lot], are not neutered prior to sale - nor are they usually vaccinated, examined by a vet to ensure they’re healthy & anatomically normal, or otherwise given vet-care that would provide the adopter or buyer with some assurance that they are healthy, & hopefully have long lives ahead.
WYSIWYG - they have clear eyes or goopy, they have snotty nostrils or clean, they have diarrhea on their petticoats or they don’t, & if U know what an open palate looks like, U can check for one, Urself, prior to taking one home.
It’s all “caveat emptor”, & U’d better know what to look for.

Here are kittens from the current ads on PreLoved - an online classified listing for resale by owners. EVERY kitten is either already desexed, or will be, prior to sale / adoption - even the crossbred siblings, a blue F & a marmalade M.

neutered kittens - Cats & Kittens, Rehome Buy and Sell | Preloved


Purebred ads? - these are ads just for one breed, Bengals, in NewsNow classifieds.

Pedigree Bengal kittens for sale - NewsNow Classifieds


PearlDust Bengals, ad #2, advertises their kittens as neutered prior to sale -
As once the kittens sell, the ad becomes dormant, & only the photo/s & a snippet of copy remain viewable, I will here copy & paste the entire ad, so that it can be read in toto.

========. PASTED COPY starts here =============

I have a litter of six snow Bengals registered with GCCF, just two neutered beautiful male snows left, big cuddly boys. READY TO LEAVE FOR THEIR NEW HOME, NOW.

These are pure pedigree Bengals, father is a GCCF Grand champion and the dam is a very affectionate Seal Lynx. Registration documents will be supplied, along with kitten pack and 5 weeks free insurance. Kittens will be wormed, flea treated, vet checked, microchipped, & neutered, before going to their new homes.
Kittens are reared in the family home and used to household noises, such as vacuum cleaners & washing machines. They are litter trained, with plenty of toys and playthings.
Reservations now being taken.

I am a registered GCCF & TICA breeder, and a member of the GCCF Breeder Scheme.
I regularly show my cats to improve my breeding program. All the correct paperwork will be supplied with the kittens. Viewing very welcome - weekends or late evenings.

Parents tested negative for PK deficiency & Bengal PRA. Extensive Full genetic test carried out by MyCatDNA.

Inoculated against:
- Feline infectious rhinotracheitis
- calicivirus infection
- feline panleucopaenia

Parasite control
• Tapeworms
• Roundworm
• Hookworm
• Whipworm
• Heartworm
• Giardia
• Fleas
• Ear mites

Please research any breed of cat before buying a kitten.


______________________ END pasted copy __________________________
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@Ari_RR ,
does this sound like an “unethical, irresponsible” breeder to U? — it doesn’t, to me; they sound very knowledgeable, deeply invested in their cats’ & kittens’ welfare, & committed to keeping their chosen breed healthy.

Many of the ads below this one, as they were posted earlier, mostly in Dec & even Nov of 2018, have timed-out & cannot be seen in toto.


Here’s another, randomly chosen Bengal ad - emphasis added in bold:

___________ PASTED COPY below ___________________

We are TICA registered hobby breeders based in Leicestershire, and currently have a litter available of 6 kittens (2 girls and 4 boys) - my prices start at £850 for pets, please enquire for breeding price.
Mum is Coco, TICA-registered active & Pk/Def, PRA/b clear, HCM screened. Dad is Indy, TICA-registered active & Pk/Def, Pra/b clear. Both parents are available to view.

Girl 1 (Sahara) - Reserved for Saika.
Girl 2- (Siara) - available for breeding, or outstanding pet.
Boy 1 (Simba) - Reserved for Saika.
Boy 2 (Merlin) - Reserved for Joanne.
Boy 3 (Lancelot) - reserved for Simon and Margarita.
Boy 4 (Shadow) - available as pet.

My kittens are home reared and fully socialised - they will not leave until at least 14 weeks old for breeding, or 16-18 weeks as a pet, as all pets are neutered before they leave.

We screen all of our cats & take no risks with the health of your kitten, as we know this is your family member for life; we are not about a quick sale, unlike some other cheap breeders you may see, be sure whoever you buy from, do your research first, & ensure they are registered, & their cats are screened.
If the price looks too good to be true, the likehood is that it is.

All pets are sold
*health checked, *vaccinated at 9 and 12 weeks, *pets are neutered, * microchipped, * full vet, *worming treatment, *TICA registration, *five generation pedigree certificate, *four weeks free insurance, *kitten pack, *and on going lifetime support, once the kitten is in your home.

Available to reserve now for a non refundable 25% deposit, viewing is essential and encouraged (but please no time wasters), kittens will be ready for viewing beginning of March, and will not leave until at least 14 weeks age.

Most importantly, your kitten will have been fully socialised with both children and adults handling them and playing with them daily from the start, in a home environment where they have been loved and nurtured by honest caring breeders, whose primary concern is the welfare of all of our cats. We focus on homing our kittens with the right person, in a home where they will be loved and nurtured for life.

Any enquiries, please message me or call me.
I am currently experiencing some issues with my email, so if you make an enquiry and do not receive a reply within a couple of hours, please call or text.
Thank you.

***My prices are non negotiable, and reflective of the health and quality of your kitten -prices start at £850 upwards, dependant upon the kitten.
For breeding prices, please enquire. **


_______________________ END pasted copy ______________
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Again - does that sound like an irresponsible scumbag, only in it for the payoff?
Their cats, sires & dams, are diligently screened; all kittens are examined by a vet, vaxed & wormed, they neuter EVERY pet kitten, & only those purchased with the intention to breed, depart intact.

I’d be delighted to purchase a kitten from someone who was so “irresponsible” as to neuter every pet-quality kitten they produced, & moreover, every kitten bought by someone with no intention to breed.
I’d be equally delighted to buy a pup from a breeder who likewise desexed every pet-quality pup, & any pup who was not bought with the express intention to breed, in the future.

Pre-breeding screening is also critical - breeders who assure me, “our dogs / our cats are GREAT”, don’t impress me; they depress me.
In contrast, breeders who test every prospective dam or potential sire BEFORE any mating, who are willing to wait to grow their dogs out & see what they’ve got for breed type & good structure as 2-YOs vs mate them at 6-MO, those meticulous breeders get my vote.

The USA is flooded with surplus pets, who live briefly & die young. Anything that reduces the sheer volume of homeless pets is helpful, & pediatric desex is one of those tools.
The number of pet-owners who think they’d like to breed a litter is shocking, & the ignorance they bring to the task is terrifying. Pre-empting that option prevents a lot of misery, IME & IMO, as a trainer & a shelter volunteer.

- terry

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[Ari_RR]

I don't know if would call them unethical or irresponsible. I don't know anything about them, and a marketing ad is hardly a good enough reason to label anyone one way or the other. They may very well be putting the wellbeing of their kittens above all other things, in their minds.

What I said, I believe, was that I would not do business with breeders offering desex for 10-12 week old puppies. Their goals of preventing unwanted litters or having friendlier dogs may be noble, but IMO they are going about it the wrong way.

As an example - I have come across a handful of dog trainers who use shock collars. I wouldn't necessarily call them unethical either, or going after a quick buck only. The ones I met were truly trying to do good. But they are, IMO, misguided in their approach. And so, while not putting any labels on them, I wouldn't have them anywhere near training my dogs.

 

[JudyN]

It seems clear we're agreed that shelters have good reasons for neutering puppies at a very early age. As far as other dogs go - those destined for responsible homes - it all boils down to the fact that there is no clear consensus as to what extent early neutering can be detrimental to physical and psychological health, to what extent it can reduce (in the long term) unwanted behaviours, and to what extent those behaviours would be better reduced through training/management. Certainly in the UK, the majority of vets and animal organisations recommend neutering once the dog is more or less physically and mentally mature.

So many threads end up going down this particular rabbithole, maybe the forum needs ONE post/thread presenting some of the available research, which could be referred to whenever the topic of the pros and cons of early neutering comes up?

 

[Nanny71]

My granddaughter had her Bengal cross (with what?)neutered. My daughter has an unneutered Bengal and granddaughter kitten was the result.
Took Tiger Lily to be neutered, thinking she was female. She returned as a neutered Male. Now called Tiger

 

[Caro Perry]

Took Tiger Lily to be neutered, thinking she was female. She returned as a neutered Male. Now called Tiger

My current cat was called Lulu by it's former owners. He's now called Louis. I think it's not uncommon to get the sex of kittens wrong!

 

[merlina]

I would totally agree JudyN if people made decisions for good scientific and ethical reasons- but sadly not so. It was exactly the same with tail-docking, people lining up to trash the evidence, diss the statistics because they basically liked to see a dog with a docked tail and would turn themselves inside out to prove it was 'for their own good.' AND they'd always had dogs and knew better than everyone else, Professors of Biology and Nobel Prize winners, whatever...people can get satisfaction from their control of animals. The Jewish writer Isaac Basevis Singer said 'when it comes to animals, all men are fascists.' (Women too I guess.)

 

[leashedForLife]

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Tail-docking & ear-cropping are purely for appearance’ sake. They are also obvious.
A Dobe with their tail, or a Dane with natural ears, can be readily distinguished from a distance.
I’m glad to see dogs with natural ears are getting their BIS recognition, altho there is still bias among U-S judges.

Since dock & crop surgeries are primarily cosmetic, it’s difficult to justify them as “for the good of the animal”, despite the long reach of the argument claiming that dogs *should* be docked “to prevent tail injuries”.
Dogs with happy tail are not that common, & if such a dog with a compulsive wag gets a tail injury, there’s time to discuss whether amputation is actually necessary, or if bandaging is step 1. If bandaging fails, or re-injury occurs, maybe shortening that tail will truly be needed.


S/N is not done for looks.
It may be done for more than one reason - but “appearance” isn’t on the list.

There are also those who don’t like the look of a castrated M, so Neuticles are a real thing: buy a fake set, & replace the actual testes.

This HAS caused problems, since the original Neuticles were pebble-like & easily distinguished from living tissue, while the later models are near-perfect realistic mimics.

I’ve read articles on TWO cases, when dogs in the breed ring, one in Europe, one in the U-S, had not one nor two, but THREE testes in their scrotums. // Each had one testis undescended, the breeder or owner replaced the missing one, & he went on to have his show career interrupted when the real thing finally came down the inguinal canal, at long last.
Those instances were over 10-years ago; i’m sure there have been others, since, & will be more in the future. // Personally, i think Neuticles ought to have a distinguishing feature that’s palpable, to readily differentiate real from fake.


I have personally dealt with many owners who didn’t want to neuter their aggressive M dogs; more than 9 in 10 of these reluctant owners were men. Do i think they take the prospect of castration a bit too personally? - yes.
Do i think that in some cases, they got a definite thrill from owning or handling a demonstrably “bad”, aggressive dog? - absolutely, yes.

There have also been owners who didn’t want their oversexed M dog neutered. [Again, overwhelmingly male owners.]
Do i think that some of them got secondhand satisfaction from seeing their dog molest other dogs? - definitely. Their dogs were their proxies, acting on impulses they would like to, but feel they can’t get away with.
There were others who just thought it was funny - a randy joke, brought to life.

Lots of reasons to desex; lots of reasons to keep entire. It all depends on who U ask.

- terry

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[Ari_RR]

Artificial testes? Male owners getting satisfaction from their dogs mollesting other dogs?

I am sure, if one looks hard enough - he will find all kinds of fringe nut cases out there. Big world, plenty of weirdness.

None of these looney examples can be a base for any generalizations, though.

So, agree with the final point. There are pros and cons, which heavily depend on the environment and owners’ abilities, and the more thinking and research is put into decision making - the better.

 

[Flobo]

As a one to one dog walker, imo, I just tailor the walk to suit the dog and to what I am happy with, I walk an entire male who I won't let off in the main park as he has 2 things on his mind 'wooing' the ladies or neutered males, he is not fussy, or stepping up to any other entire male in the park and there are a few. I let him off in a fenced in area and we play, if another dog comes in I put him on the lead if not recognised or we play avoiding, or we leave. In a town/city environment sometimes your choices are limited and you have to work with what you have got. I would never feel it is my place to suggest neutering or not, although my personal opinion is one of neutering unless you intend to breed...but that is me..

 

[PWDmum]

The reason most people here in the UK have cats / kittens neutered is down to the fact most cats here are free to roam, we very rarely keep cats in, they are allowed to go and come as they please, as with pedigree cat breeders, they do not neuter before they sell the kittens, they usually put in contract “ papers will be sent on “once cat has been neutered at appropriate age.....as with cat rescues, they will neuter, before they sell, for the reasons I have given....

To the original poster, I think if I was the owner of this dog I would not appreciate my dog walker telling me to castrate my dog,it’s there choice whether they keep their dog entire or not, but it is also your choice on whether you are prepared to walk an entire dog....if you are hPpy with this boy in all else, then maybe inform them you feel safer keeping him on a lead.... there is no guarantee castration will calm his behaviour. And it could even make it worse, I guess you have two choices, stop walking him, or apply rules to how you walk him