1 Bitch Bred To 2 Males ... At The Same Time ?

[satiny]

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When surfing on the internet, and looking what is bred abroad, I came to a website mentionning :

""

As for a litter information on a dual sired litter, this will be our first and the way we will determine which puppies belong to what father is through DNA testing. We will be breeding her naturally to one dog and artificially inseminating her with the other on the same day and then the next breeding day we will switch the dogs and breed her naturally to the other dog and artificially inseminate her with the other. We can't wait to see what we get from this litter from two completely different boys!

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This is the first time I read something like this. I don't think this allowed in Europe, certainly not in Belgium.

What are your thoughts about this ? Pro's and contra's ...

 

[charlene]

This has been allowed in Finland since June 2005, and "dualmating" in my knowledge has been a approved procedure by FCI.

There has been a lot of discussion of it in Finland, and opinions vary as you can understand. Some say that when travelling long distance to breed a bitch, it could be wise to use two different males. The puppies always has to be DNA tested, so their breeding can be verified. I have not studied this a lot, but I do know that there has been born 1 dualmating whippet litter in 2006 in Finland.

 

[satiny]

I didn't know that it was autorised or that it already happened over here.

It seems so strange that one would bredd to two dogs at the same time.

Of course I can understand that it is difficut for travelling if it is far away.

Cerning the DNA test, there is a discussion at our country that after 1.1.09 it may be possible that the DNA test is required for the parents and puppy(ies) - am speaking here for 1 bitch to 1 male.

 

[seaspot_run]

Well, I know what website you are talking about. It's a USA breeder.

Anyhow, the reason that the AKC decided to allow DNA testing of double-covered or potentially double-covered matings by males of the same breed is to help out breeders who had accidental breedings but whose puppies are still purebred. In the past, no puppy from such a litter if there was ANY doubt as to the parentage of the puppies could have been registered. But with DNA, you can tell which of two or more possible sires of the same breed are the father of each puppy. So, I am glad AKC offers us this provision, especially since some of our male Whippets are the fastest cannons rolling around the gun decks and only need a moment's inattention to strike.

Now, as for doing it deliberately, I can only think of ONE possible situation where I would even consider doing such a thing--that would be if you were leasing a bitch and only got ONE shot with her, and the first choice stud dog was either very old or very young, and might not be very fertile. Then, a second choice stud dog might be bred right afterwards to insure you at least got a litter out of a bitch you might only have access to for a single breeding.

But as for when a bitch is young and owned by the breeder, and the breeder owns both males who are also young, and the double-covered mating is elected, I guess you ought to write them and ask them why they are doing this because they aren't members of this board and therefore cannot answer the question.

It's certainly within AKC rules as presently written, so the puppies can and will be registered to the proper sire(s), but it's not at all commonly done here. I would say this is a pretty unique situation. I do know of breeders who have bred a bitch to one of their dogs, and then felt that their kids or petsitter or spouse or whoever MIGHT have let the bitch get accidentally with another male of the household, and the DNA testing was very helpful in sorting it out and allowing that breeder to register their litter with a clear conscience.

Interestingly, in one of those cases, the CHOSEN sire proved to be the sire of NONE of the puppies, while the sire who MIGHT have gotten with the bitch (according to spouse/kids who screwed up) was the sire of ALL of them. :teehee:

Which speaks to SeaSpot's Corollary Of MisMating: All Mismates and Unintended Breedings are Productive.

Bank on it.

 

[Hebridean]

Call me old-fasioned, but I this seems so unnatural to me. It smacks of GM, and who knows where that will lead. What's wrong with just a plain 'mating' with chosen stock, and see what happens.

It's a bit sick to me. But then . . . . I don't understand the logic.

 

[satiny]

But as for when a bitch is young and owned by the breeder, and the breeder owns both males who are also young, and the double-covered mating is elected, I guess you ought to write them and ask them why they are doing this because they aren't members of this board and therefore cannot answer the question.

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This topic is not for pointing out fingers to this breeder. I am just asking an opinion on a dual mating, as I have never heard about it, and as I said already we probably need to do DNA tests starting next year.

 

[Boxing Helena]

When a double mating happens by accident - don't say it will never happen with me - I think it is a good thing to do the DNA tests.

If it was not allowed, I think some breeders just write a name on the papers, and who knows if that is the correct name.

I own a bitch, Vague à l'âme Du Chawia that comes from such a mating. Her mother was bred to the male what was planned and the next day, another male jumped over the fence.

Out of this litter came 5 pups of the planned combination and 2 bitches of the other male. So in this situation it is good they could do the test, because the puppies need their correct pedigree !!

As mentioned before, it is allowed by the FCI .

Re the DNA tests in Belgium, yes Rita we have to do it from next year, you can choose to test 1 pup or the complete litter.

 

[seaspot_run]

It's not pointing fingers, but they can't explain why they would do it here since they aren't posters here.

I guess I'm old-school on this one. I think you pick the dog that you think is the best one available for your particular bitch at that time you choose to breed, and then try to maximize the number of puppies that will be sired by the chosen stud. Then, if after you do your planned matings someone gets through the fence, it's good there is DNA to sort it out.

But it's a new era, and I suppose that there will be new ways of thinking about breeding.

 

[Scudder]

I can see doing it intentionally under special circumstances as Karen points out, maybe its an older bitch being used for the first (and last) time, maybe its a breeding to an older stud dog, yet you want a successful litter at that time.

This is neither a pro nor a con, but I wonder about the number of quality dogs from such a breeding. When I do a litter, I want to get a certain number of puppies so that I have depth of quality and variety to choose from for myself and any competitive homes that may have reservations.

A bitch can only produce a certain number of puppies in one litter. If you use 2 sires, are you limiting the number of puppies from which you can choose quality stock?

I would rather increase my odds with 7 puppies from the same sire, then 4 pups from one and 3 from another.

Kristen

 

[Seraphina]

A bitch can only produce a certain number of puppies in one litter. If you use 2 sires, are you limiting the number of puppies from which you can choose quality stock?
I would rather increase my odds with 7 puppies from the same sire, then 4 pups from one and 3 from another.

Kristen

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You have taken the words right out of my mouth! :lol:

As far as saying that registering litters from dual mating is in the realm of GM (w00t) , that is ridiculous! Multiple matings would have always occurred unless people intervened and confined the dogs, then mating to their chosen sire.

 

[T Hoare]

As far as I am aware this can happen if say a bitch was 'mismated' and the owner is not sure which male mated the bitch they can put an alternative sire. I don't know if it's happened in Whippets at all.

 

[beaker]

i remember a friend of mine mentioning of a dual sired mating (not this breed and not this country)

done apparently because the bitch had been concentrating on her show career and at 4 1/2 years old, was only going to be allowed one opportunity to have a litter, the breeders had whittled down their stud dog choice to 2, they had wanted pups from both and if the bitch had the time for 2 litters would have used both, so to maximise potential success (as they were using A.I) and hopefully have pups from both studs they opted for a dual mating and DNA testing.

it's scarey to think of massive costs that must have been involved :blink: :sweating:

 

[Hebridean]

As far as saying that registering litters from dual mating is in the realm of GM (w00t) , that is ridiculous! Multiple matings would have always occurred unless people intervened and confined the dogs, then mating to their chosen sire.

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It's not the dual mating that I find difficult, but the artificial insemination too. And that you would even want to do this.

 

[chelynnah]

I think the topic as a general topic is really interesting as long as we stay away from the individual case.

I belong to an email breeding list and I've heard many reasons for doing this. Some of which I go 'yeah I can understand that' and others where I just roll my eyes. I do think it's a very interesting topic as a general discussion topic.

I don't think it's something that I would ever personally consider, and the first time I heard of it there really was a bit of an 'ick' factor in my mind, but after listening to some discussion (I'm always open to hearing where others are coming from), I can see some valid reasons for it even if it's not something I could do.

As for GM, well I don't agree that it's GM. Isn't every mating we do a little bit of an experiment? Hasn't everything we've done from the creating the breed in the first place been to 'improve' or 'better' or 'refine', so from that perspective how different is this except that you are raising a single litter sired by two fathers at the same time rather than 2 litters sired by those same fathers (but indivudally) at separate times?

Not saying I'm for or against it - just putting that thought out there in response to the GM comment.

Wendy

 

[sdwhippets]

I have just joined and I am a new member here. Rita, who started this discussion emailed me as if you haven't figured it out already - the litter being discussed is ours She wanted to know herself what our reasons where for doing this and this is bascially the email I sent her, changed a bit for the list.

Alright, we have a few reason's for wanting to do this and I will explain them all. First I will let you know that the dam and both sires already have DNA on file with AKC and all the puppies will be DNA tested. In order for the DNA to stand on file, they do have to have permanent identification (tattoo or microchip) so they will be microchipped when their DNA is sent in so that their DNA is always on file with AKC.

#1 - We lay out our breeding plans a few years in advance, so with figuring in all that Dido (the dam) will probably not be bred again and if she is, it probably won't be until she is 7 years old. So with breeding her to both dogs, if she does have puppies by both, it will be like getting two litters out of her without having to breed her for two litters. This is her very first litter. If you know anything about our dogs and what we do, or our breedings - we have two seperate lines, the show dogs and the performance dogs. Of course, all our dogs do EVERYTHING, but we do have show and race bred dogs. This year is the year for our show litters and next year will be performance litters. The following year (2010) I have my girl Charlize and Dido's sister Lola I may possibly breed. As of right now, there is no plans to breed Dido again and if we do, she will be much older. We've never bred a bitch as old as 7 years so we don't know if we will ever breed Dido again.

#2 - We wanted to see how puppies out of the same bitch and sired by different dogs grow up and compare to one another, growing up at the same time, under the same conditions. It will help us better understand how this bitch (and our other bitches of the same line) produces with a particular dog and what the dogs strengths and weaknesses are in their puppies, being able to compare to them to one another out of the same dam. Puppies sired by one dog will be an out cross and puppies by the other dog will be line breeding. So it will help us understand our line better and how we should breed our dogs since we are still developing our own lines. By definition, we really have not attempted a real line breeding or a real out cross so this will help us figure out what our dogs produce better with.

#3 - We had tried a dual sired litter before with a bitch we leased, but she was shipped in season and didn't catch. So next time around we just played it safe and bred her to one dog. So after our first dual sired litter didn't catch, we wanted to try it again and with the circumstances, we had the right bitch and the right dogs to do it with.

#4 - The one sire, Brooks, will be neutered at the end of the year, he's 6 years old already and has had 3 litters for other breeders, but we had never had puppies by him of our own. The other bitches we were planning on breeding before neutering him were to closely related to him so this was my last chance to get puppies by him for myself BUT we also wanted to breed her to our import Quincy since we didn't have plans to breed him anytime soon ourselves and would also like puppies sired by him as we don't have any from him right now. So it was a chance to get puppies from both dogs, before the older one was neutered and since the other dog wasn't going to be involved in our breeding plans for the next few litters.

All have been health tested (ALL are OFA Cardiac Normal and CERF Normal and Brooks is also BAER Normal) - Brooks is 6 years old, Dido will be 4 in October & Quincy is 2 years old, just incase you are interested about that as well.

Dido is due to whelp the earliest on the 24th. She is quiet big so she should have quiet a few pups. As for the people that say, I rather have a litter of say 7 or 8 puppies sired by one dog to chose from then a litter that is split up between two dogs (I've gotten emails from several people that wanted to know our reasons for this and this is normally what they said) - we had no idea how many she would have. If we had just bred her to one of the dogs, maybe we would have only gotten 3 or 4, then what would the difference be if the litter was bigger and split between two stud dogs? She herself came from a litter of 3, her dam then had a litter of 9 for her second litter. So we had no idea how many she would have not having been bred before. I myself say it's no different to have 8 nice puppies to choose from then only 4. If they turn out to be nice, consistent puppies, to me it doesn't matter how many there are. If we had bred her before and knew what she produced, then we would have probably only gone with one stud dog. But we don't know what she will produce or if she will produce better with a line breeding or out cross - this will help us figure this out. We are still developing our OWN lines, this takes a while and sometime you have to take chances, and it's a learning experience the whole time.

I certainly don't mind answering questions about our dogs, our breeding plans, etc. So don't be afriad to ask

Krys

Shannon & Krystyl Lyons

Shannon Down Whipppets

www.shannondownwhippets.com

 

[satiny]

Thanks Krys for joing the forum and giving your explanation

Hope we will hear and see more about the litter

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Rita

 

[sdwhippets]

Thanks Rita, I will certainly post about the babies and how everything turns out with the dual sired litter.

Please guys, feel free to keep discussing this topic - everyone has their own opinions about different things.

Krys

 

[chelynnah]

Thanks Rita, I will certainly post about the babies and how everything turns out with the dual sired litter.
Please guys, feel free to keep discussing this topic - everyone has their own opinions about different things. 

Krys

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Thanks for joining and sharing your perspective

Wendy

 

[Sagoruna]

I am not a breeder but I would be hesitant of letting 2 males breed to the same bitch in the natural way because of the possibility of transmitting a disease from one male to the other and of course the chance for the bitch too to catch something. If I owned dog nr 2 so to speak I wouldn't allow him to mate the bitch. Since the bitches are in heat so seldom compared to other species they show diseases and get well from them before they are going to be used again for breeding, but when you use 2 or more males during the same heat-period this advantage gets lost. This is my opinion and I work proffessionally with healt care preventive strategies in dairy cows in which proffession we use a lot of AI and one reason is to not spread diseases. I would do one of the males naturally and one with AI preferable fresch semen IF I would mate with 2 males.

 

[Seraphina]

I am not a breeder but I would be hesitant of letting 2 males breed to the same bitch in the natural way because of the possibility of transmitting a disease from one male to the other and of course the chance for the bitch too to catch something. If I owned dog nr 2 so to speak I wouldn't allow him to mate the bitch. Since the bitches are in heat so seldom compared to other species they show diseases and get well from them before they are going to be used again for breeding, but when you use 2 or more males during the same heat-period this advantage gets lost. This is my opinion and I work proffessionally with healt care preventive strategies in dairy cows in which proffession we use a lot of AI and one reason is to not spread diseases. I would do one of the males naturally and one with AI preferable fresch semen  IF I would mate with 2 males.

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My bitch is swabbed and tested when she comes in season and so are the stud dogs I use. So I would not unduly worry about infections.

To give the 2 dogs equal chance siring pups, the matings would need to be done pretty much in the same time. I would prefer natural matings for both dogs. I have done AI with fresh semen of excellent quality, and got no pups, several times.

Using 2 dogs will not have any impact on number of pups, that is dependent on the number of ova the bitch produces.

Actually, more I think about dual mating more I like it. It is certainly way to increase genetic diversity in our lines, without increasing the number of pups we produce :thumbsup: