At my wits end about barking!

[arealhuman]

Join our free community today.

Connect with other like-minded dog lovers!

Login or Register

Hello everyone,

I'm new here and have a 6 year old, male, neutered, medium-sized, mixed breed rescue dog, which we picked up about 4 months ago. This is my first dog, and he lives with me and my wife. We have no other pets. We observed him interacting with about 5 or 6 other dogs at the rescue centre, and there was no cause for concern. In our house, he is an affectionate and well behaved dog. No toilet issues, no chewing, not possessive over food, nothing at all (with an exception regarding seagulls, as you'll see below). Indoors, he's a real delight to be around.

When out and about on the lead he can bark and lunge at other dogs when in close proximity, male or female, big or small. We've spent a small fortune on behavioral training - which trained both us as new owners and our dog - and to cut a long story short our dog wears a lead provided by the trainer which is similar to a Halti lead in that it goes over his snout and behind his head and clips on to his collar. The training we've received goes along the lines of giving the lead a yank when he starts to exhibit bad behaviour - i.e. it looks s though he's going to bark - accompanied by us making a loud "ah" sound. Initially, we also squirted a jet of water at him to interrupt his behaviour, but this now has no effect. This training has improved things, but he now barks at random dogs. So for example, if we're out in a field, he may bark at other dogs, or he may not. We can't detect any pattern or logic to it. When he does bark he tends to lunge and ends up spinning around on his lead, once we've past the other dog, he's fine again. He's never actually made any contact with another dog. Other times, if dogs approach him, 9 times out of 10 he will be fine and they'll sniff each other and it's all good. Anecdotally, it might be that others dogs not on a lead do not cause problems, whilst others on leads upset him, although this isn't a hard and fast observation. Whilst I appreciate that dogs bark, it's what they do, I would really like to do more to minimise this behaviour. I'd be very interested in any suggestions, although I don't really want to spend tons of money again if I can help it. Our trainer said it may well be some form of fear response and I should also mention that we do not let our dog off the lead in public spaces as he has zero recall.

He's also started barking at traffic, and I don't know why this has started. This happens mostly on walks when it's dark but can happen in the daytime too, and it happens lots when there's rain (perhaps the hissing noises of cars passing on wet roads makes things worse for him). We don not intentionally walk him close to the traffic. We also occasionally take him out in the car, and yesterday on a journey he barked at every car - moving and parked! You can imagine my stress levels after a drive with this going on for 30 minutes - I thought my heart was coming out of my chest!!! When he's in the car he wears a harness, and he's clipped in using a tether that goes into the seat-belt buckle clip. He has some movement, which can be adjusted by lengthening or shortening the tether.

All of this is causing me a lot of stress as we can't predict how he will behave when we're out and about. He is completely fine with people of all ages, including toddlers, and like I said, in the home he's the most adorable companion (apart from when he sees seagulls through the windows, then he'll kick off!). We know little about his history, other than he's a street dog from abroad and has been attacked by dog(s) in the past and has the scars to prove it, so this may have a bearing on his behaviour. I don't know how many previous homes he's had, if any, other than the rescue centre and a foster home. He's been to the vets several times for general check-ups and vaccinations and so on, and there's nothing that's been medically identified to cause him to bark at other dogs like he does.

I'm really sorry about the long post, but I'm trying to get down as many facts as I can before I ask - can anyone help at all with this problem? The only solution I can tell you that won't help is rehoming him again - we made a commitment to provide his forever home and in that we're unwavering as both me and my wife love him to bits.

Thank you so much for any advice.

 

[excuseme]

W

 

[JoanneF]

I am sorry you may not want to hear this but I suspect the advice you have been given by your trainer has probably contributed to this behaviour. There are two main schools of thought regarding training; it sounds like your trainer subscribes to the dominance theory which is old school and relies on punitive methods, and is now being shown to be less effective. We now know that reward based training is far more effective based on studies of canine behaviour in recent years. Gypsysmum is one of our behaviour and training experts and will probably have more to add. But when your trainer said this may be rooted in a fear response, in this at least he may well be correct. So - imagine yourself in the dog's position - you are afraid, your fight or flight response kicks in, you make a bit of noise to scare off the thing that is frightening you and your owner (who you really want to rely on to protect you) contributes to your stress even more by yanking you back and spraying water at you and punishes you for your fear. And fear is an emotion, not a behaviour, so it's not even a conscious choice in the first place. Your dog isn't being naughty, he is reacting to his feeling so it's not something we should punish. Can you see what I am saying here?

I suggest you identify what he stresses at, and as soon as you see him tense (like with another dog) instead of yanking, making a noise, spraying him or whatever, take him to a safe distance. He will have a sort of invisible radius of safe space, anything inside that zone is scary, and is stressing him. Outside that radius is far enough away to be ok. You have made a good start by recognising that some dogs make him stressed, others don't. Maybe some dogs remind him of a bad experience in his past. When he starts to relax because he feels far enough away to feel safe, ask him for a sit, or to keep eyes on you (my favourite with my own dog) and praise and reward. With nice treats. The aim is that he learns that other dogs are not a threat, and don't in fact make bad things happen. Gradually you can work on reducing the distance between him and the threat. But be aware that the distance can differ from day to day, depending on whether he already has some of the stress hormone in his bloodstream. It can take up to 48 hours to leave the system, think of it like a hose dripping into a bucket with a very small hole in the bottom, if it builds faster than it drains, the bucket overflows.

With the car, I suggest walking him at a distance from passing cars - really the same principal as above - and gradually reducing the distance. You may find that helps when he is in the car with you too, but I would hold of on that if you can because of the proximity of other vehicles.

You may need some professional help. I know what you said about spending more money and I do get that, but perhaps your insurance might cover this. But PLEASE if you do, find a trainer from an organisation such as COAPE or the APBC who use modern methods.

 

[gypsysmum2]

I agree with everything JoanneF has said.

In order to change his behaviour you have to change the emotion he is feeling. If you can replace fear with confidence you will crack his behaviour.

Where you cannot use distance to lessen the impact of the other dog then try the "bar open - bar closed" technique.

At first sight of another dog start feeding your dog fantastic treats. Keep up the feeding the whole time the dog is visible. (Bar Open) As soon as the other dog disappears stop the treats. (Bar Closed) Over time you should see your dog start to look at you when another dog appears. Reward this with fantastic praise and feed lots of treats one after the other. You are after changing his perception of other dogs from one of dread to one of anticipation of reward.

Headcollars are fine and give you more control. The Dogmatic and Dogalter are my personal favourites.

Where he does get on with other dogs do encourage him as it will build his confidence and ensure he doesn't widen his fear response to all other dogs. It is often the case that dogs off lead are absolutely fine because we do not interfere with their body language between each other. As soon as we start tightening the lead and moving the head around we ruin the conversation the two dogs are having. Left alone they would probably be fine.

One of the biggest barriers to overcome is our embarrassment at our dog's behaviour. This makes us think that we must "do something". The best thing that you can do is just call out your apologies to the other dog owner as you move him outside his critical distance or open the bar.

With the traffic fear you could try taking him to a car park and walking him around slow moving traffic while feeding lovely treats. Once comfortable there, move to a 20mph limit and do the same. Progress to a 30 limit etc. Try, if he reacts, to just let him move away from the traffic and wait until he relaxes again.

The car problem is very difficult unless you have help to try to distract him from his behaviour. He sees the behaviour as successful because he survived the journey while performing it. If someone could sit with him and distract him with food it might help.

Otherwise you will need a complete desensitisation period where you put him in a stationary car, reward him for good behaviour, repeat, repeat, repeat. Start the engine repeat, repeat, repeat. Move a foot or two repeat, repeat, repeat. Move a bit more etc. Only make progress when he is settled in the current stage.

As above, you may be insured for a qualified behaviourist from COAPE or APBC. Worth every penny if you have your dog for another ten years or more. In the meantime I recommend "Clever Dog" by Sarah Whitehead to help you understand more about dog behaviour.

 

[arealhuman]

Thank you so much JoanneF and Gypsysmum2 for taking the time to post comprehensive replies. They're both really helpful with some good suggestions to put into practice. I'll start by using treats as a reward for "good" behaviour and see how that goes, it'll be a complete opposite of what we've done so far so will be interesting to see how he responds. I'll back this by lots of "good boy" type talk and pats on the head and back, which he likes

The travelling in the car is an issue, but as a big as his barking behaviour. A dog-owning friend has suggested putting a crate in the boot and partially covering it with a blanket, on the basis that this becomes a secure place during travelling. Do either of you have any views on this?

Thanks again. I'll report back with my progress just in case you'd like to know how things go on

 

[JoanneF]

Of course we want updates!

The car issue is really down to why cars are stressing him; many people do find that a blanket helps so go for it and see how he gets on.

 

[gypsysmum2]

Yes, a crate is worth a try. If he is barking in excitement it may calm him. Do try, when you arrive at your destination, not to let him out until he is quiet. Always reward the good behaviour (quiet dog) and ignore the bad behaviour. Dogs hate to be ignored and it is a very powerful tool.

Don't let his barking in the car carry on for too long. The more they "practice" a behaviour the harder it is to deal with.

 

[Lion Dog Love]

I think you've received some amazing advice and I agree with what everyone has suggested. If it's a fear response as the trainer suggested - correcting through punishment will only increase the association with the feared stimulus and fear. Id also be careful about managing your own emotions, if you're anxious your pup will pick up on it and also be anxious - but I know managing our own emotions is easier said than done.

I thought it may be useful to provide some videos that I found useful when training our pup:

He's got loads of videos and we have found them really useful. Hopefully, they will be of use!

 

[arealhuman]

Thank you for the new replies. Today was a disaster when walking him, culminating in an event that's really testing my ability to keep to the last paragraph in my original post Thanks for the videos, I'll watch them when I get a moment!

 

[JoanneF]

Hang in there. Things often get worse before they get better, honestly. We are here with virtual support when we can ....

 

[arealhuman]

Hang in there. Things often get worse before they get better, honestly. We are here with virtual support when we can ....

Thanks - I'm going to need all the help I can get!

 

[Biker John]

I have not had a problem with barking, but I know a woman that had a GSD that barked a lot, she eventually decided to train it to bark. I know it sounds wrong, but getting it to bark on command also involved teaching it to stop. Obviously training was done away from any distractions. Eventually the dog got good at it, bark on command and stop on command being given a treat of course. And after this when they were out if the dog started barking she commanded it to stop and it did, eventually the barking reduced to a point it wasn't a problem. No idea if this was a one off or not.

 

[gypsysmum2]

Not a one off, Biker John, it is often used to teach dogs that bark, out of excitement, boredom etc, to stop when told. It would not work, in my opinion, on a dog that is consumed with conflicting emotions. The emotions need to be tackled so that the dog's brain is in "neutral" when it can learn not to feel fear or frustration or any of the other emotions that might be causing the behaviour.

With the dog in question, he does it when on lead and in close proximity to other dogs. This is a classic behaviour for a dog that is fearful of the other dog and wants to flee but is unable to do so because he feels trapped on his lead. It becomes a rewarded behaviour, too, because the other dog goes away. This makes our dog feel a huge sense of relief which is highly rewarding. Next time he feels fear he does the same as he did last time to gain that same sense of relief.

 

[arealhuman]

Hi again, thanks to everyone for the continued replies Long post alert...

So, the incident I referred to above, my dog actually attacked another, smaller dog. No warning, nothing. The other dog was off the lead and my dog made his usual whining noises which we take to mean "I want to go and say hello and I'll behave". If he doesn't make this whining sound, it's a lot of barking and straining on the lead, so we usually know the whining means he's going to be OK. Mostly. Anyway, the two dogs met, sniffed, and without warning my dog grabbed the other in his mouth and went mad. I jumped in and managed to separate the pair, made a lot of apologies to the other owner, I asked if his dog was OK and he said he thought so (I've since bumped in to him again and he also said his dog was OK, but it was a bit of an embarrassing encounter). I can't tell you how depressed I felt after this, hence my earlier post. I still feel low about it and now it will always be in the back of my mind as to if he's going to react like this. Anyway, I tried the treat process and when my dog is in the zone, i.e. fixated on another dog, he is not interested at all in treats. He won't look at them or acknowledge them whether they're in my hand or on the ground, which I guess isn't altogether surprising. I'm now wondering if in his previous life abroad, he was either used as a fighting dog or life on the streets was that tough he had to fight for food/shelter. As I said, we were told he'd been attacked as he had scars in an "armpit", so perhaps either of these theories might be correct. That said, he's obviously had some form of training as he's house trained and so far, hasn't made a mess in the house or exhibited any destructive chewing behaviour. He's also great around people too, although following the earlier incident with another dog, I have nagging doubts about this now.

I've watched the two videos above which Lion Dog Love kindly posted and they're very informative (he's an enthusiastic bloke isn't he? ). The trouble I have is that most of the dogs featured in those videos are trained to respond to their owners. Ours is not. Of the dogs featured, ours in most like Charlie who interestingly is also a rescue dog. There's a clip in each video where he lunges at others dogs, and barks too I think, which is typical of our dog. However, the owner in the video can get her dog back under control, we cannot. Ours just goes into some kind of mental focus of barking and gets so worked up, he ends up spinning around on his hind legs! Embarrassing for us and probably not too much fun for the dogs either So, perhaps it's time to go back to basics with some simple training and go from there. Our dog hardly ever responds to commands, but will sit if food is involved when we're indoors and we hold it up above his head and tap his bum. Most other commands have no effect, maybe because he's only been in the UK for just over a year, he's used to hearing them in another language, I don't know.

Anyway, that's enough from me for now, I think I will look into the training mentioned above (COAPE/APBC) and see if there's anyone local to me. Cost will be a huge factor though if I'm honest, we've spent hundreds on this so far. :'( A strange thing that occurred to me whilst recently watching an episode of Paul O'Grady's For The Love of Dogs - there was a lady trainer on there who was dealing with similar problems in a Chihuahua with great success (I think she used a kind of clicker device), if only we could visit her!

Thanks again for keeping interested.

 

[arealhuman]

Following up my own post, I've located these trainers near me (Devon):

COAPE

APBC

Word of mouth recommendation always seems best, so can anyone recommend a trainer from the list please? I've looked at a couple of the individual trainer's websites, and their processes seem very similar to what I've already experienced, which also means its going to be eye-wateringly expensive!

 

[JoanneF]

I am sorry you are having problems, a good behaviourist would be an investment though. Meantime I suggest keeping more distance between him and other dogs, and it's absolutely fine to use food to reward for responding. Have some of his normal food for ordinary good behaviour and something more special like chicken for a more demanding request.

Check your insurance, some policies cover behaviourist.

 

[gypsysmum2]

The reason you had the latest problem was that the other dog was far too close. Your dog cannot cope with other dogs in close proximity.

Do, please, consider muzzling your dog. A Baskerville muzzle allows a dog to drink and pant. If you introduce it like a fantastic new toy and spread it with cream cheese he will soon accept it.

Once he is muzzled, you will find that you relax! Once you relax you may find that your dog's behaviour improves. An added bonus is that most people will keep their dog a good distance away and that will give you a window of opportunity to gain your dog's attention.

At the moment it sounds as if you have no real relationship with him. You need to work on that whenever he is relaxed enough to learn.

An anxious dog cannot learn.

An individual consultation with a behaviourist from one or other of the organisations mentioned will give you a huge amount of confidence that you are handling and training your dog in the right way.

 

[arealhuman]

Thanks for the replies - I'll continue to work on this and update you all.

 

[Eleanor Balloch]

Hello there

I'm at my wits end with my dog I rescued from Romania just over a year ago.

I thought I had the only dog in the world with this behaviour. I don't need to describe it because you have already have! Everything you have mentioned is exactly what my dog does. He can even escape from a half choke collar.

Like you I have tried behaviourists, bought calming aids but nothing works. When the "red mist" comes down that's it.

I wondered how things were going?

I feel like the talk of my neighbourhood. The lady with the mad/bad dog.

It's no fun

 

[gypsysmum2]

No, Eleanor, it is no fun.

I think what most people struggle with is the public perception of you and your dog. If you can put that to one side and just concentrate on being your dog's advocate you might make more progress. While moving your dog to a "comfortable" distance, for him, just call out an apology of some sort and stay strong. Your neighbours will just be thinking that they are glad it is you with your dog and not them.

Which behaviourist did not work? The ones from the associations mentioned should be able to help you solve your problems. They are fairly common ones. If the behaviourist did not take a detailed history and delve into all the different behaviours your dog is displaying then you need to find one that does. They will give you a comprehensive schedule of things to try and then work with you to tweak them as you work. It may take months and months of daily hard work but you should get there in the end.