At my wits end about barking!

[arealhuman]

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Well. we're sorta doing that, but the thing I've been told to be careful about is giving treats when he barks at other dogs, as he might associate his barking at other dogs with getting rewards!  I think we're making progress, albeit slowly, but our usual tactic is avoid other dogs if at all possible - doing u-turns included!

 

[gypsysmum2]

Yes, timing of the treat is critical. You are looking for a cessation in the barking with just enough of a pause for him to realise that the treat was for his mouth being shut. As time goes on gradually ask for a second or two's more pause in the barking before rewarding.

Try to anticipate the start of barking and get focus on you so that you can reward his correct choice of not barking even though there is a dog in view. Each time he makes the correct choice he should get a fabulous reward.

Not sure if we have mentioned lead tightening? It, as I am sure the behaviourist has said, is like lighting the blue touch paper. The dog thinks that you have tensed up at the sight of another dog and so becomes defensive. It is socially unacceptable to be seen to "do nothing" to control a barking dog but it really can make a difference to how your dog perceives the world. If you need to keep a distance then turn your body round and move away from the other dog rather than tightening the lead.

You will have good days and bad days, good weeks and bad weeks and even good months and bad months. Stay strong and work with the behaviourist.

 

[leashedForLife]

... I've been told to be careful about ...giving treats when he barks at other dogs -- as he might associate his barking at other dogs with getting rewards!  
...

Umm.  :b   The point of DS/CC is to make "other dogs" reliably predict Good Things.  
U are not "rewarding barks" - U are making Other Dogs a sign that really good stuff is about to happen.

I can't explain it any more clearly - this is not CONTINGENT training; the dog isn't required to 'do' anything [EDIT - or for that matter, "not do" anything, LOL.]
This is B-Mod: we are altering the dog's emotional response to what is now a trigger [see / hear / smell another dog, I bark], & making the trigger a happy event, instead of a stressful one.  To do that, we pair food - in pea-sized or half-pea sized tidbits, but good quality - with the presence of other dogs.

Hopefully, we are under threshold - the dog is aware of, but not reacting to, the other dog/s.  If we're over threshold, give her / him more distance.   So long as the other dog is visible or audible, the tidbits keep coming in a thin steady stream; when the other dog cannot be seen or heard, CLOSE THE BAR [no more food].  It's that simple.

 

[arealhuman]

I can but try!

 

[leashedForLife]

Do U have any big-box pet supply stores nearby?
Those are great locations for DS/CC of a reactive dog - it's nice to have a car along as a retreat, if the dog gets overaroused & can't stop barking / hackles are up, etc, put the dog in the car ON THE FLOOR so s/he can no longer see the passing throng.  [Ideally of course, we stay at a distance that is under the dog's threshold, but life happens, if someone parks nearby & proceeds to get THEIR dog out of THEIR car, Ur dog is going to lose the plot, & U need a plan to get back into stride.]

Park where Ur dog can see & / or hear the other dogs, but where U know s/he won't be unable to concentrate - it's a sweet spot between being blissfully ignorant, & being obsessed & upset.   Have a load of treats on hand, & for the sake of reducing calories, here's a training trick:
 - the night before, measure ONE of Ur dog's meals into a ziplock bag, minus one-third to one-half its usual volume or weight.
IOW, if Ur male dog eats 1 cup of food per meal, make it 2/3 cup or even 1/2 cup [or 6-oz wt instead of 9-oz, or even 4.5-oz].
Replace that volume or weight with food tidbits: 1/4-inch diced Mozzarella, freeze-dried lamb lung, cubed chicken-breast, ______.
Seal the bag, & stick it in the refrigerator overnight. // Next day, every bit of food - kibble or raw, canned, whatever - smells yummier.
Dogs rate food on its aroma - plain old kibble is miraculously improved when it smells of diced roast-beef, LOL.

2nd trick -  silence Ur dog's tags:
wrap a wide rubber-band around the stacked tags, or masking-tape; buy a tag-bag such as Quiet-Spot, & bag 'em. // When YOUR dog's tags jingle, that sound alerts other dogs to her or his presence, & they start scanning - usually well-ahead of Ur arrival, they are primed. When they react, YOUR DOG REACTS to their reaction - it's a chain. // Silencing Ur own dog's tags can break that chain; only visual contact will let other dogs know U're around,  & Ur own dog becomes less agitated, when the other dogs are calmer.

Next day, don't feed whichever meal would usually precede the training session - depending on when U go to the shop's car-park & what time U usually feed, that might be breakfast or dinner.
When U arrive, park [or stand] where U think Ur dog can see but not go nutz over dogs headed to the pet-supply. When U see or hear a dog, start feeding a string of tidbits as fast  as s/he swallows the one before - when U can't see or hear the dog, stop feeding.
If Ur dog cannot focus on the food long-enuf to eat it, move back further. When U find a distance that allows the dog to eat WHILE seeing distant dogs, note the time.  Stay there for at least 5-mins or 3 dogs, whichever comes 1st.   [That's 5-mins of continuous feeding As Long As A Dog Can Be Seen - now U know why U need more than 10 training treats, LOL, this is a meal fed in pea-sized bits.]

If U can handle 10-mins of "feed so long as any other dog is visible", go for it - but then STOP.  Take a break to let the dog relax, & think about what just happened. Half an hour is good - an hour, spent quietly at home, with the dog asleep for at least 20 to 30-mins, is well-nigh perfect.
Overnight is just fine, but if U can go back for another short session in the same day, i'd try it.

 

[leashedForLife]

The reason for the break is that learning occurs after the event, as well as during it - & SLEEP is extremely important to learning.

New memories are only stored properly, so that they can be found & retrieved, during sleep - & REM sleep is when this happens. R.E.M. or 'rapid eye-movement' is the stage in sleep when we dream; it's also when the day's events are sorted, catalogued, connected to related topics, & finally stored so the brain can find them. This process of incorporating new memories into already-recorded memories is critical to learning.

That's the reason why students who attempt to cram half the semester's teaching in one course into their heads in a single night before the mid-term exam do not do well, while those who study the material in digestible chunks & literally sleep on that chunk before starting the next, absorb it much better.  AND...  they retain that learning for longer periods, even without practicing it or using it.
Cramming is anathema to learning - to learn easily & well, have brief repeated sessions over a period of time, advancing only as the student masters each step, & sleeping uninterrupted at night. // Naps after study or training are a Good Idea - they consolidate learning.

Whenever an animal seems completely lost on some recent behavior that i THOUGHT they'd grasped, i quickly ask for something very-basic & well rehearsed  [like 'Sit'], praise them when they [of course] do it, & i don't ask for that supposedly-learned new behavior for the rest of that day - maybe even 2 days. I let them "sleep on it".
Then the following day or even the day after, in the midst of other training, i try to elicit that behavior - lure it, or cue it, or set up the antecedent... & 99 times of every 100, the dog does it immediately, & never forgets it again.
S/he just needed to do some passive learning, & re-sort those memory files. //   OTOH, a few dogs even after their 24 to 48-hour break, when i lure / set-up / cue the supposedly-learned action, look at me as if i'm spouting Swahili.  THEY NEVER LEARNED IT AT ALL - i was mistaken; & we start all over again, from step-1.  // Luckily, training goes amazingly quickly the 2nd time around.
"11th hour idiocy" is often cured by simply giving the dog [or other learner] a break, so they can sleep on it.

 

[arealhuman]

Well, I'm still at my wits end with all this.  He will still bark and go into a kind of spinning/jumping motion which is very embarrassing for us.  If we're in a field, and a dog is in the distance, he will generally be OK and a treat will distract him and he will generally pay attention.  If he goes into one of his "episodes", there's nothing we can do distract him at all until we either drag him out of the vicinity of the other dog, or the other dog moves on.  On top of this, humans have two hands which isn't enough to control a dog, find and hand out a treat, and use a clicker, all in an instant whilst all of this goes on.  You can't plan ahead when a dog suddenly appears from someones driveway or a side road.  It's all very disheartening (not to mention it gets me angry too!), and I think that we're just going to have to accept that our little fella will be like this for the rest of his days.  I'm tempted to have another session with our current trainer, but we have spent hundreds of pounds and sadly in my case, my bank account is not a bottomless pit.  Both types of training we've had have recommended different bits of kit too, so all this adds to the expense.

 

[leashedForLife]

Q - 
did U try training in or beside the car, with line of sight view of a pet-supply, groomer's salon, vet's office, or other 'destination' for dogs on leash?
U need a goodly distance so he's not over threshold / won't be barking... which U will slowly reduce.

Inside the car, there's no need for a leash UNLESS he becomes so intensely aroused that he needs to get onto the floor, below window level, to de-stress.
That gives U both hands for doling out tidbits in Open-Bar / Closed-Bar fashion.

The CLICKER would only be used later, when he has improved & can see a distant dog without barking / lunging / spinning, etc. For now, the food association is the primary tool; no need for a marker.

 

[arealhuman]

This is one of my issues with dog training - each trainer has a different view on what to do!  No disrespect meant at all, but I get conflicting advice from professionals.  At the moment, we're trying to follow the steps given to us by out latest trainer.

 

[leashedForLife]

Well, I'm still at my wits end with all this.  
He... still [barks & spins /jumps] which is very embarrassing...   in a field, with a dog in the distance, he'll generally be OK & a treat will distract him & he will generally pay attention.  
If he goes into one of his "episodes", there's nothing we can do to distract him at all until we either drag him out of the vicinity of the other dog, or the other dog moves on. 

[Also], humans have 2 hands ...not enough to control a dog, find & give a treat, & use a clicker, all in an instant whilst all of this goes on.
You can't plan ahead when a dog suddenly appears from someone's driveway or a side road. 

It's all very disheartening (not to mention makes me angry too!), & I think that we'll... have to accept that our little fella will be like this for the rest of his days.  I'm tempted to have another session with our current trainer, but we've spent 100s of pounds & sadly... my bank account is not a bottomless pit.
Both [trainers] recommended different bits of kit, too, so all this adds to the expense.

Taking each in turn -
when he's OK, what's the need to "distract" him?  - Logically, that's when U reward & praise him, yes?
And once he's over threshold, barks, spins / lunges / ________ , U leave immediately, if not sooner. There's no point offering goodies when he's insane with arousal.
Either get him to a non-reactive distance, or just go home.

re sudden appearances -
that's the moment for that well-trained, fluent, rehearsed, HAPPY emergency U-Turn that U taught him at home, away from any dogs, gulls, cats, _____ .
  A bright cheerful, "Let's go!..." & U turn & trot or jog away, briskly.

Q - 
did U try training in or beside the car, with line of sight view of a pet-supply, groomer's salon, vet's office, or other 'destination' for dogs on leash?
U need a goodly distance so he's not over threshold / won't be barking... which U will slowly reduce.

Inside the car, there's no need for a leash UNLESS he becomes so intensely aroused that he needs to get onto the floor, below window level, to de-stress.
That gives U both hands for doling out tidbits in Open-Bar / Closed-Bar fashion.

The CLICKER would only be used later, when he has improved & can see a distant dog without barking / lunging / spinning, etc. For now, the food association is the primary tool; no need for a marker.

This is one of my issues with dog training - each trainer has a different view on what to do!  
No disrespect meant at all, but I get conflicting advice from professionals.  At the moment, we're trying to follow the steps given to us by out latest trainer.

U just said U're about to resign Urselves to fate - he's gonna be like this for life.
Also, U said U can't manage the clicker with everything else [leash, food, accurate timing...] - so why not try it clicker-free, in the car? 

I don't see any conflict between what i suggested, & their plan - other than "put off the clicker till he's improved a bit", which is not a massive contradiction, & was to accommodate Ur trouble with too few hands & too many things.

 -- terry

 

[gypsysmum2]

This is one of my issues with dog training - each trainer has a different view on what to do!  No disrespect meant at all, but I get conflicting advice from professionals.  At the moment, we're trying to follow the steps given to us by out latest trainer.

There is absolutely no substitute for a well qualified trainer or behaviourist that is seeing the actual dog. We can only give general advice on here because we don't know you or your dog. As long as your trainer or behaviourist is using modern motivational methods (as will members of APDT for dog trainers or COAPE/APBC for behaviourists) then you will be fine. Discuss what you have read elsewhere with them to see what their opinion is.

 

[leashedForLife]

I scrolled back & saw  a Zak George video linked on Pg-1  -- i didn't watch it, possibly [tho i kinda doubt it] he's changed his methods & uses less intimidating body language re the dogs, but i wouldn't put money on that.  :b

Here's a series of Pos-R clips from the ever-helpful KikoPup -
"barking at noises", Ep 1

.
.
and for good measure, all - 14 - of her REACTIVE DOGS & "Nuisance Barking" clips in one place, including the 5-part series, above  -

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXtcKXk-QWojGYcl1NCg5UA5geEnmpx4a

Note that she includes wanted behaviors that U can teach a dog to do, such as "rest their chin" rather than freak out - it's not "don't" training, as no-one can teach a non-behavior. // There is a famous dictum in training, called the Dead-Dog Rule: Anything a dead dog can do, cannot be trained.  Ergo, that long list of "Don'ts" that novice dog owners always want their dogs "to do" - Don't bark, Don't jump, Don't void indoors, Don't beg, __________ - those are all dead-dog behaviors, & not 'trainable'.

U need to translate the Dead-dog behavior into something a live dog can learn to do... I-e, instead of jump to greet, sit. Instead of bark at the door, bring a toy to be thrown by the arriving person. Instead of beg, when we sit at the table, automatically go to Ur bed, & U will periodically be rewarded for patiently lying there.
THOSE are teachable.

  - terry