At my wits end about barking!

[arealhuman]

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I've made some progress with our dog, he's still pretty much the same but barks less at dogs he sees regularly. Mostly. I haven'y yet approached a COAPE/APBC registered trainer due to cost, but it is on my list to do (funnily enough just spoke to my wife about it).

 

[Eleanor Balloch]

Hello there,

Thanks for your support.

I have totally lost confidence when out with him. He has managed to escape from a half slip collar and various harnesses.

People have suggested I either get rid of him or have him put to sleep. He deserves better.

The behaviourist I used was frpm Pawsitive Solutions. I explained everything my dog had been through and his current behaviours.

I kept asking if Ruary (my dog) needed different treatment from other dogs because of his background and was told it was the training was the same.

I paid £330 for a course of training which was meant to help him. I honestly think it made him worse.

He brought his dogs to meet Ruary and he got on fine although the meeting only lasted a few minutes. A few days later I emailed him to say Ruary was still lunging and barking at other dogs. His reply was "that's strange, he was fine with my dogs." I don't think he could understand what I was going through. When he came to the house on the first visit he was afraid of Ruary because he was barking and growling. He thought he was being dominant.

To date I have spent well over £1,000 buying different aids, remedies, collars and harnesses etc. I'm living on a pension so money is tight, but if I knew for sure associations like COAPE or APBC would work I would certainly give it a go.

He walks well on the lead and doesn't pull but when he's in the "zone" he can escape from collar or harness. Then I'm petrified what might happen next. Is there any type you could suggest?

Sorry for rambling on, but I'm on the edge of despair.

 

[JoanneF]

I don't think it has been mentioned but pet insurance sometimes covers the cost of seeing a behaviourist. Also, I wanted to add that dog behaviour work is an unregulated industry. The bloke next door with zero experience or credentials could set himself up as a behaviourist. That's why we keep banging on about COAPE and the APBC. They set stringent standards for their accredited members so you know that you are buying a level of quality.

 

[spanielmad]

It's really sad to hear the problems your having Eleanor. Doesn't sound like the behaviourist you saw intially helped either yourself or your dog. As Joanne said, this field is largely unregulated - i started to do a 'human' counselling course once, and learnt that's pretty unregulated also, which made me think why am i bothering to spend a small fortune to gain qualifications when i could just set myself up in business unregulated? Think that's why it's really important as Joanne has said to check qualifications, particularly if you're looking for long term solutions. There's even some companies offering'boot camp Luke's dog training online, in a residential setting! I.e call us, tell us your dogs problems, we'll pick them up, train them a return you're now perfectly behaved dog back to you.. really? But i suppose that as long as there are people with money to spend on this type of 'rehabilitation' there will be people willing to pay for it, no doubt often in good faith

Sorry, the above should've said 'boot camp like dog training' Sincere apologies if there is a boot camp Luke dog training establishment out there.. purely a slip of the autocorrect lol

 

[arealhuman]

To date I have spent well over £1,000 buying different aids, remedies, collars and harnesses etc. I'm living on a pension so money is tight, but if I knew for sure associations like COAPE or APBC would work I would certainly give it a go.

He walks well on the lead and doesn't pull but when he's in the "zone" he can escape from collar or harness.

I haven't spent quite as much as you but am in the same position - if I knew COAPE or APBC would work, I'd dive straight in. Also, my dog walks well on the lead when there's nothing else around, but again, when he's in the zone there's nothing that can be done until he settles himself down. Oddly since our behaviourist visited, he's not like it with all dogs, just most :- | He hasn;t escaped his lead and I hope he doesn't.

I'm sorry I can't offer any other words of advice being a new dog owner myself, but I do hope you find a solution.

 

[JoanneF]

Eleanor, I just reread your post. I think if I had paid £330 for a meeting that only lasted a few minutes and failed to address the issues, I would be asking for my money back. I had a look at the Pawsitive website, they advertise as many visits as necessary over a two month period. I don't know if you want to go back to them but I certainly wouldn't be happy with one short visit for that money.

A good behaviourist works with the owner as much as with the dog, and trains you to support your dog. That simply can't be done in one short visit!

 

[Eleanor Balloch]

Hi Joanne,

Sorry if I misled you about the time the trainer spent with me. In all I had three sessions at home mainly to train me! I have had dogs all my life mostly rescued. I was given handouts, we met his dogs and he walked round the block with me and Ruary but there was no bad behaviour to observe. The time we spent outdoors observing Ruary was very short and limited.

I contacted him after the three months was up to tell him how much I was still struggling with Ruary. He said I must keep up the training! Which I was but it's very difficult to do much when your dog is hanging off the end of his lead barking and growling at whatever he finds a threat.

I found him very patronising and unhelpful. He felt he had done his job and the rest was up to me, which I accept, but to have no improvement left me bewildered.

Maybe I can't be trained lol.

I might do as you suggest and contact the site to see what I can do.

Thanks for your advice.

 

[JoanneF]

Sorry, I misunderstood.

I wonder what his advice was? Advice used to be based on 'make them face their fears' and when he brought his dogs along, I wonder if that was his approach? But now the widely accepted approach is to establish what your dog finds a 'safe' distance from the perceived threat. Let him sit outside that distance (a park bench is a great place as long as other dogs don't approach) and reward his calm behaviour. I noticed the website said not to use treats, I really think they are losing a valuable resource there! Sit for a half hour if you can, provided nobody sets your dog off. Gradually - over weeks and months, work on reducing the safe distance. Also bear in mind the stress hormone can take up to 48 hours to leave your dog's body. So if yesterday was a bad day he is still "trigger stacked" today and he will react more quickly than he might otherwise do. In fact when you have a stressful episode, I would avoid any further stressors for a couple of days even if that means a day at home. It takes a long long time and your dog may never like other dogs. That's ok if you can teach avoidance and tolerance.

 

[gypsysmum2]

The very fact that your behaviourist used the word "dominant" would rule him out in my book. This theory has long been discredited and, if he were in touch with the behaviour world he would know this. A good behaviourist would know that a dog should not "practice" the undesired behaviour and so would not bring their dogs along to trigger the behaviour. He should, on this occasion, have listened to you and given you a programme of remedial work to carry out. Each step would have been monitored and assessed by your behaviourist. If the technique was not working then a new one would have been looked into and discussed.

The APBC and COAPE associations are manned by people who have backgrounds in dogs and then embark upon a degree level course to study the emotional make up of dogs. It is all done very scientifically and not just from the "university of life" perspective. Many of them are vets and vet nurses or have worked for years in dog rescue before looking for the answers in a more scientific way. They start with looking at each dog's background, its diet. its normal emotional state, its problem, the owner's background and experience etc.

 

[arealhuman]

Minor update for my situation - I emailed one COAPE and one APBC trainer last night, both local to me. No response as yet. Although I hate to say it, cost will be a factor. We took Jimmy to the beach last night and he was mostly mental in the presence of other dogs I'm at a loss as when we visited him at the rescue centre, he was fine with the dogs there.

 

[JoanneF]

Did you check your insurance to see if it covers this? Or the rescue may have support?

 

[arealhuman]

Did you check your insurance to see if it covers this? Or the rescue may have support?

We've only just taken out the insurance, will check and see. Rescue support is via telephone. So, one trainer replied, seems quite helpful, the other is not taking on any new clients. We'll see how this pans out...

 

[JoanneF]

Would the rescue contribute to the cost? Some do.

 

[arealhuman]

Would the rescue contribute to the cost? Some do.

Might be worth looking in to, thanks

 

[arealhuman]

By way of an update, in case anyone's interested, we're seeing a COAPE trainer in a couple of weeks. Will report back after that! Sod's law being what it is though, our dog has been OK in the presence of other dogs over the last few days. Now it's just seagulls, trains, buses, and cats to work on :lol:

 

[JoanneF]

Great news, I am sure you won't be disappointed.

 

[gypsysmum2]

Do please try to make a note of the situation when your dog is ok with other dogs and when not. It seems very weird that he is suddenly ok with other dogs when he was so bad before. Try to ascertain any variable factors as this will help the behaviourist enormously.

 

[arealhuman]

Do please try to make a note of the situation when your dog is ok with other dogs and when not. It seems very weird that he is suddenly ok with other dogs when he was so bad before. Try to ascertain any variable factors as this will help the behaviourist enormously.

We've tried! I think it depends on what mood he's in and whether there are any red or blue cars being driven anywhere in the UK (yes, it appears that random!).

 

[arealhuman]

OK, so first session done.  We've been told we need to work on our dog's focus on us, so we're starting some clicker/treat-based training which he seems reasonably receptive to although we haven't started this regime in anger yet (waiting for trainer's supporting notes).  Once he gets better at that, we're going to look at how he reacts to other dogs.  I'll post more updates as things progress  

 

[leashedForLife]

...
I'll start by using treats as a reward for "good" behaviour & see how that goes...

It's not a reward for performance, there's no contingency [ -If- U do this, -then- U get that...] - it's pure association: "I see or hear a dog? -- Goodies are coming, oh, joy!..."  :cheers:

the idea is to DS / CC the dog's previous emotional response; DeSensitization helps the dog lose the habit of hyperalert surveying for other dogs, & Counter-Conditioning is to literally 'counter' the bad memories [or excitement, or fright, or anger, or ______]  that the dog currently connects to the trigger.
Bar Open/ Bar Closed is pure classical conditioning, right out of the B F Skinner playbook.  It's association - this happens, then that [predictive], or WHILE this happens, so does ____ . Associations can be happy, scary, exciting, etc.  When we create a new association to a familiar or a novel stimulus / event, that's classical conditioning. [Pavlov, Skinner, etc.] In this case, since we're using CC / open-bar + closed-bar  to change an existing emotional response to a known trigger, we call it counter-conditioning.

the original experiments that puffed meat-powder into the mouths of Pavlov's dogs after they heard a bell chime, were also classical conditioning - Pair a neutral stimulus with an unconditioned valuable event [food - nobody needs to "learn to like" food, hence it's unconditioned]. // The BELL is the conditioned stimulus, in that once it's strongly associated, the dogs will drool & swallow at the sound of the chime, even when no food is present.

We're trying to detach the conditioned stimuli [sight or sound of an approaching dog] & ditch the bad memories, while MAKING new memories that connect the sight or sound of another dog to Good Things. //  The dog can bark, growl, lunge, etc - THEY STILL GET THE GOODY, as long as the other dog is visible or audible. Hopefully U're at a distance where Ur dog is not reactive / is under threshold,  but if not, back up while offering goodies from a lowered palm, in a trickle to the dog's mouth or the ground, for snuffling up.
Or just get outta Dodge - cue a fluent well-rehearsed Emergency U-Turn, & jog cheerfully away from the unexpected dog/s.
Then, once under threshold [not at a reactive distance], start feed, feed, feeding...
  - terry

Terry Pride, member Truly Dog-Friendly
'dogs R dogs, wolves R wolves, & primates R us.' -- (™ 2007)