Breeding Practices

[starswift]

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i couldnt agree with you more patsy! i would never do back to back matings myself and there is no point talking about the kennel club as most of those doing this are accredited breaders whAT A LAUGH

 

[starswift]

yes i did let a bitch go to a home that have done a back to back with her wasnt happy but now endorsing everything i breed

 

[starswift]

Cheers Tracey for the link............I am shocked that in this day and age of bad press that the guidelines for breeding are not tighter or better worded. Better worded = no more than 6 litters............bitches not under a year.................not over 8 years old................even with my poor grasp of mathematics that makes for some breeding machine, so very shocking.

I do think there could be additional guidelines from the BC's and yes I agree it would only apply to members but surely we are all in this breed because we love it and want to do the best by it???????????

or I would like to hope so anyway...............................

6 litters three should be the max whatever the circs

 

[jayp]

But am I right in thinking that before the KC's new code of ethics HAD to be adopted by B.C's, each club had their own for their members and, if I remember correctly, some were quite abit more specific on breeding. Therefore there is a lost opportunity and IMO a backward step too.

And as this new code of ethics has been drawn up by the KC, and not the B.C's, surely the 'punishment' for breaking this code now rests with the KC?

So have the B.C's now lost some of their powers in maintaining standards (not breed standards!) within the Whippet community????

To be fair to the KC they did insist all clubs adopted their standard code.... this was so that things included in some breed codes ie the culling of Ridgeless ridgeback puppies was not seen to be approved by the KC as they do ratify the club codes and were most embarrassed when this was pointed ut to them publicly . So now they have started with a one code for all BUT any breed club can ask for the things that were in their original code of ethics to now be added to the basic KC code ( as long as killing healthy puppies isnt on it )

So all we have to do is ask and we can have the original code of ethics back

Jan

 

[bertha]

As breed clubs and the breed council, we can all have our own code of ethics, but there will always be people who think it doesn't apply to them. They see themselves as responsible.

Also none of it matters to puppy farmers.

The KC really had the opportunity when they brought in the Accredited Breeder membership, but it has no teeth, just having a certificate on the wall doesn't guarantee good quality, well reared and well bred puppies.

I think we need to be firm with our members who do not adhere to our code of ethics and refuse them membership and ban them from shows.

Now ducking for cover.

 

[liza]

As breed clubs and the breed council, we can all have our own code of ethics, but there will always be people who think it doesn't apply to them. They see themselves as responsible.Also none of it matters to puppy farmers.

The KC really had the opportunity when they brought in the Accredited Breeder membership, but it has no teeth, just having a certificate on the wall doesn't guarantee good quality, well reared and well bred puppies.

I think we need to be firm with our members who do not adhere to our code of ethics and refuse them membership and ban them from shows.

Now ducking for cover.

i totaly agree about the accredited breeder the rules need changing

 

[liza]

[i know this topic has digressed but worthy of discussion IMO.

i never breed a bitch under 2 years as she is not mature

we are talking about breeding we al have to breed to carry on our lines if we choose to have one or two litters some people want to have two litters in a year some people have one ther are people who do abuse our breed and they are not show people they just breed for profit which i am totaly against

i wont be having another litter for 2 may be 3 years i have two lovely bitch pups and a lovely dog pup that is more than enough to show along with bill and katie and rosie will be at home as a pet

the kennel club do need to change the breeding age and how many litters you can have from a bitch i do two but three should be the limit lets not pick on the hobby breeders look on pets4home s and epupz thats where you get your abusers people who cross whippets with othere breeds and people who are constantly breeding litters

 

[JAX]

As breed clubs and the breed council, we can all have our own code of ethics, but there will always be people who think it doesn't apply to them. They see themselves as responsible.Also none of it matters to puppy farmers.

The KC really had the opportunity when they brought in the Accredited Breeder membership, but it has no teeth, just having a certificate on the wall doesn't guarantee good quality, well reared and well bred puppies.

I think we need to be firm with our members who do not adhere to our code of ethics and refuse them membership and ban them from shows.

Now ducking for cover.

Unfortuanatley most of these folk dont belong to a whippet club OR show . Down at grass roots is where we need to go , Sort out the ABS for starters ., But Bill Lambart wont be told and is quite happy to have info on known puppy farmers and STILL NO NOWT ABOUT IT :rant:

 

[05whippet]

The Kennel Club have allowed a golden opportunity to slip by. When they introduced their code of conduct that they expect all breed clubs to adopt, why on earth did they not apply this to their own clubs registration department???? It would instantly stop these people from over breeding, breeders from having two litters at the same time or within a couple of weeks between breeding. They could have stated that anyone breeding more than one litter in any 12 months would not be allowed to register their litter.I know it's draconian, but how can we protect our breed from people who exploit them and breed purely for cash. After all, having to litters at the same time can only be for money.

I do not think that you can make a sweeping statement like that regarding people who may have two litters at the one time unless they are repeatedly doing it....as in some cases there may be certain extenuaiting circumstances that you know nothing about. We have recently just had two litters on the ground at once (they were three weeks apart & believe you me it was the one and only time that I would EVER contemplate doing it,it was utter chaos!) and I can honestly say hand on heart that we never made any amount of profit worth mentioning from either litter!! In fact I can tell you that IF raised correctly, you do not make a profit from any litter,so the people making money from breeding & using their dogs as a commodity & churning out litter after litter are not raising their litters correctly!!

We DO NOT as a rule normally even have 2 litters in the one year let alone at the same time but circumstances dictated different this time around & it was either to do the two matings then or never at all. I wont go into details on the forum about this,but people who know me know EXACTLY why it was done this time & also know that as most of our puppies from these litters have gone abroad and therefore we have had to hold onto them longer than most (in fact I still have two here,one goes on the 15th & the other 21st of this month) and the fact that we dont charge for keeping them until they can leave, the cost of the food bills etc has far outweighed any profit that might've been left. So I think it is totally unfair to "tar everyone with the one brush" if they happen to have two litters on the ground at the one time,as we don't all breed solely for profit,there are other reasons for breeding a litter.

I think as is mentioned in this thread,that you only need to read the BRS to find out who is breeding what & how often and I also think that some of you might be quite surprised or shocked even to realise that it is NOT only the "unknown's" that are repeatedly breeding litter after litter but some people a little "closer to home" too!

 

[posh totty]

quoted by 05whippets post

I think as is mentioned in this thread,that you only need to read the BRS to find out who is breeding what & how often and I also think that some of you might be quite surprised or shocked even to realise that it is NOT only the "unknown's" that are repeatedly breeding litter after litter but some people a little "closer to home" too!

here here!!!!!!!!!!

i for 1 am sick to the back teeth of the assumptions name calling petty playground games that appear on here from time to time!!!!!! people need to grown up and look a little closer to home before spouting off at others , ive seen people on here torn to shreds, over a pic, a question or merely an opinion , what ever happened to respect ?? not asking everyone to agree nor ignore bad breeding and neglect , we are all united in welfare i hope!!! many have been driven off the board whom could have learnt a hell of a lot from the more experienced of you on here !! kris and i never saw eye to eye but hell she had some damn good points!!! do you not realise that its only us to blame???? the whippets dont ask for all this crap!!! this board should be here to learn from , exchange views and enjoy the passion that unites us all , WHIPPETS!!!!

ive sat back and read this 3 times before posting and im sorry if i come across as aggressive but im sick of , 1 lady i told to join , took 1 look at it and said no thanks , too many bitches!!! what does that say to you??? now thats yet another novice been put off and very well now could end up at a puppy farm due to behaviour on here!!!

end of rant ! :b

 

[quintessence]

I have split this topic away from its' original title. Please remember to adhere to board rules when posting.

Jenny

 

[liza]

The Kennel Club have allowed a golden opportunity to slip by. When they introduced their code of conduct that they expect all breed clubs to adopt, why on earth did they not apply this to their own clubs registration department???? It would instantly stop these people from over breeding, breeders from having two litters at the same time or within a couple of weeks between breeding. They could have stated that anyone breeding more than one litter in any 12 months would not be allowed to register their litter.I know it's draconian, but how can we protect our breed from people who exploit them and breed purely for cash. After all, having to litters at the same time can only be for money.

I do not think that you can make a sweeping statement like that regarding people who may have two litters at the one time unless they are repeatedly doing it....as in some cases there may be certain extenuaiting circumstances that you know nothing about. We have recently just had two litters on the ground at once (they were three weeks apart & believe you me it was the one and only time that I would EVER contemplate doing it,it was utter chaos!) and I can honestly say hand on heart that we never made any amount of profit worth mentioning from either litter!! In fact I can tell you that IF raised correctly, you do not make a profit from any litter,so the people making money from breeding & using their dogs as a commodity & churning out litter after litter are not raising their litters correctly!!

We DO NOT as a rule normally even have 2 litters in the one year let alone at the same time but circumstances dictated different this time around & it was either to do the two matings then or never at all. I wont go into details on the forum about this,but people who know me know EXACTLY why it was done this time & also know that as most of our puppies from these litters have gone abroad and therefore we have had to hold onto them longer than most (in fact I still have two here,one goes on the 15th & the other 21st of this month) and the fact that we dont charge for keeping them until they can leave, the cost of the food bills etc has far outweighed any profit that might've been left. So I think it is totally unfair to "tar everyone with the one brush" if they happen to have two litters on the ground at the one time,as we don't all breed solely for profit,there are other reasons for breeding a litter.

I think as is mentioned in this thread,that you only need to read the BRS to find out who is breeding what & how often and I also think that some of you might be quite surprised or shocked even to realise that it is NOT only the "unknown's" that are repeatedly breeding litter after litter but some people a little "closer to home" too!

i totaly agree if you rear your puppies properly you make no profit

mine have the best of everything i found their favourite food is the frying steak rosie and katie still have it now bill and he's litter brothers loved the cooked chicens you get from the butchers by the time you get all the meats they like and the puppy complete you make nothing i just enjoy my babies and my dogs so they get the best i can give them if they could talk they would tell you themselfs

i must admiti am not finding it hard work yes it takes time to put them out play with them clean them out and put them back to bed mine live in the hose but go out in my kennel while i am sorting out their room thats katie's pups rosie has only got 6 and they are two weeks younger so they are still easy

no i wouldnt by choice have two litters

their are a lot of breeders who are breeding a lot not only in whippets but other breeds

 

[cairo]

The Kennel Club have allowed a golden opportunity to slip by. When they introduced their code of conduct that they expect all breed clubs to adopt, why on earth did they not apply this to their own clubs registration department???? It would instantly stop these people from over breeding, breeders from having two litters at the same time or within a couple of weeks between breeding. They could have stated that anyone breeding more than one litter in any 12 months would not be allowed to register their litter.I know it's draconian, but how can we protect our breed from people who exploit them and breed purely for cash. After all, having to litters at the same time can only be for money.

I do not think that you can make a sweeping statement like that regarding people who may have two litters at the one time unless they are repeatedly doing it....as in some cases there may be certain extenuaiting circumstances that you know nothing about. We have recently just had two litters on the ground at once (they were three weeks apart & believe you me it was the one and only time that I would EVER contemplate doing it,it was utter chaos!) and I can honestly say hand on heart that we never made any amount of profit worth mentioning from either litter!! In fact I can tell you that IF raised correctly, you do not make a profit from any litter,so the people making money from breeding & using their dogs as a commodity & churning out litter after litter are not raising their litters correctly!!

We DO NOT as a rule normally even have 2 litters in the one year let alone at the same time but circumstances dictated different this time around & it was either to do the two matings then or never at all. I wont go into details on the forum about this,but people who know me know EXACTLY why it was done this time & also know that as most of our puppies from these litters have gone abroad and therefore we have had to hold onto them longer than most (in fact I still have two here,one goes on the 15th & the other 21st of this month) and the fact that we dont charge for keeping them until they can leave, the cost of the food bills etc has far outweighed any profit that might've been left. So I think it is totally unfair to "tar everyone with the one brush" if they happen to have two litters on the ground at the one time,as we don't all breed solely for profit,there are other reasons for breeding a litter.

I think as is mentioned in this thread,that you only need to read the BRS to find out who is breeding what & how often and I also think that some of you might be quite surprised or shocked even to realise that it is NOT only the "unknown's" that are repeatedly breeding litter after litter but some people a little "closer to home" too!

i totaly agree if you rear your puppies properly you make no profit

mine have the best of everything i found their favourite food is the frying steak rosie and katie still have it now bill and he's litter brothers loved the cooked chicens you get from the butchers by the time you get all the meats they like and the puppy complete you make nothing i just enjoy my babies and my dogs so they get the best i can give them if they could talk they would tell you themselfs

i must admiti am not finding it hard work yes it takes time to put them out play with them clean them out and put them back to bed mine live in the hose but go out in my kennel while i am sorting out their room thats katie's pups rosie has only got 6 and they are two weeks younger so they are still easy

no i wouldnt by choice have two litters

their are a lot of breeders who are breeding a lot not only in whippets but other breeds

i wouldnt by choice have two litters "

I don`t usally comment on breeding practices as I am a complete novice and my whippet is purely a much loved pet...but even as a novice, I`m sure that you must have put both of your bitches to stud by choice.

"

 

[Lez]

Wasn't the original post about back to back matings and not how many litters you can have at one time, that surely depends on your personel surcumstances, if you had the resourses and the room you could have two or more ,not for me.

It may get bitchy sometimes but what do we live for.

 

[liza]

The Kennel Club have allowed a golden opportunity to slip by. When they introduced their code of conduct that they expect all breed clubs to adopt, why on earth did they not apply this to their own clubs registration department???? It would instantly stop these people from over breeding, breeders from having two litters at the same time or within a couple of weeks between breeding. They could have stated that anyone breeding more than one litter in any 12 months would not be allowed to register their litter.I know it's draconian, but how can we protect our breed from people who exploit them and breed purely for cash. After all, having to litters at the same time can only be for money.

I do not think that you can make a sweeping statement like that regarding people who may have two litters at the one time unless they are repeatedly doing it....as in some cases there may be certain extenuaiting circumstances that you know nothing about. We have recently just had two litters on the ground at once (they were three weeks apart & believe you me it was the one and only time that I would EVER contemplate doing it,it was utter chaos!) and I can honestly say hand on heart that we never made any amount of profit worth mentioning from either litter!! In fact I can tell you that IF raised correctly, you do not make a profit from any litter,so the people making money from breeding & using their dogs as a commodity & churning out litter after litter are not raising their litters correctly!!

We DO NOT as a rule normally even have 2 litters in the one year let alone at the same time but circumstances dictated different this time around & it was either to do the two matings then or never at all. I wont go into details on the forum about this,but people who know me know EXACTLY why it was done this time & also know that as most of our puppies from these litters have gone abroad and therefore we have had to hold onto them longer than most (in fact I still have two here,one goes on the 15th & the other 21st of this month) and the fact that we dont charge for keeping them until they can leave, the cost of the food bills etc has far outweighed any profit that might've been left. So I think it is totally unfair to "tar everyone with the one brush" if they happen to have two litters on the ground at the one time,as we don't all breed solely for profit,there are other reasons for breeding a litter.

I think as is mentioned in this thread,that you only need to read the BRS to find out who is breeding what & how often and I also think that some of you might be quite surprised or shocked even to realise that it is NOT only the "unknown's" that are repeatedly breeding litter after litter but some people a little "closer to home" too!

i totaly agree if you rear your puppies properly you make no profit

mine have the best of everything i found their favourite food is the frying steak rosie and katie still have it now bill and he's litter brothers loved the cooked chicens you get from the butchers by the time you get all the meats they like and the puppy complete you make nothing i just enjoy my babies and my dogs so they get the best i can give them if they could talk they would tell you themselfs

i must admiti am not finding it hard work yes it takes time to put them out play with them clean them out and put them back to bed mine live in the hose but go out in my kennel while i am sorting out their room thats katie's pups rosie has only got 6 and they are two weeks younger so they are still easy

no i wouldnt by choice have two litters

their are a lot of breeders who are breeding a lot not only in whippets but other breeds

i wouldnt by choice have two litters "

I don`t usally comment on breeding practices as I am a complete novice and my whippet is purely a much loved pet...but even as a novice, I`m sure that you must have put both of your bitches to stud by choice.

"

yes i did put my girls to the stud dog we didnt think katie would take so my mum said to mate rosie as she has been waitting for a puppy for over 3 years she didnt want a booy it had to be a girl i had decided not to mate both all by 3 are sold to realy good homes as i know most of the people that have bought them i wont be having another litter for 3 to 3 years as i think 3 plus my older ones re plenty to show

 

[Juley]

I spoke to the KC about the Accredited Breeders Scheme, they told me that if I am not an AB they can't "guarentee" my pups like they can an AB's pups as I am only a hobby breeder. I did point out that the AB down the road that they have never met, never checked etc could be a puppy farmer with the pups in appalling conditions and how on earth could they "guarentee" anything.

They have ONE home checker for the whole country. ONE. I am going to suggest that they send out a questionairre to any applicants previous puppy buyers. It can be annonymous, at least it would give them some feedback.

I am furious that the decent people who won't join the scheme because of its flaws are classed far below the ones that have rushed to join up, I am NOT saying that all AB are bad, JUST that they should be checked before being guaranteed by the KC.

 

[bertha]

I spoke to the KC about the Accredited Breeders Scheme, they told me that if I am not an AB they can't "guarentee" my pups like they can an AB's pups as I am only a hobby breeder. I did point out that the AB down the road that they have never met, never checked etc could be a puppy farmer with the pups in appalling conditions and how on earth could they "guarentee" anything.
They have ONE home checker for the whole country. ONE. I am going to suggest that they send out a questionairre to any applicants previous puppy buyers. It can be annonymous, at least it would give them some feedback.

I am furious that the decent people who won't join the scheme because of its flaws are classed far below the ones that have rushed to join up, I am NOT saying that all AB are bad, JUST that they should be checked before being guaranteed by the KC.

Good post and so very true. I know AB,s who breed none stop, litter after litter and charge top prices for what are basically pet bred pups. Another thing that really annoys me is well know people allowing these ABs to use their stud dogs!!!!!!!!!!! You just have to look at the BRS to see what I mean.

In an ideal world, [ha ha] breeding would only take place when the bitches owner wants a puppy to continue their line and bring on a pup to show. After all, most litters, show, race or what ever will be sold on after the owners choice is made, as pets, pets only! It would cut down the numbers of ill thought out litters, the people who have a litter just because they think it would be fun.

Things were so much better about 15 to 18 years ago, at least breeders thought about what they were doing. Another thought, why cant' the KC appoint home checkers from the whippet clubs and the Breed Council, that way the wrong doers would be ousted, [bit strong] :'(

.

I'd better stop now before I get shot :lol:

 

[nina]

Personally i would NEVER have 2 litters at the same time & i dont care what the circumstances are but thats me.

I have been around too long & heard ALL the excuses under the sun but still i would not personally choose to do this, i dont care what any one says but 2 litters of pups are not going to get the same amount of attention, time & devotion as one even if you are superman/woman, also its a lot of homes to find for the pups & yes anyone can find homes BUT not always necessary the right homes & then pups are returned at a later date all very unsettling for all concerned. I know many do it in many different breeds not just whippets & they have a multitude of excuses, you cant stop them as its a free country but you dont have to agree with it.

Regarding back to back matings, i can not stress strongly enough how absolutely hideous i think this is & i dont care if the bitch had a singleton pup in the first litter i still think any bitch should be allowed a rest & a season in between.

Again personally i think 3 litters is more than enough for any bitch, to me 1 or 2 litters is ok, but why keep mating the same bitch over & over if its not for the money??

Just my opinion.

 

[jayp]

I spoke to the KC about the Accredited Breeders Scheme, they told me that if I am not an AB they can't "guarentee" my pups like they can an AB's pups as I am only a hobby breeder. I did point out that the AB down the road that they have never met, never checked etc could be a puppy farmer with the pups in appalling conditions and how on earth could they "guarentee" anything.
They have ONE home checker for the whole country. ONE. I am going to suggest that they send out a questionairre to any applicants previous puppy buyers. It can be annonymous, at least it would give them some feedback.

I am furious that the decent people who won't join the scheme because of its flaws are classed far below the ones that have rushed to join up, I am NOT saying that all AB are bad, JUST that they should be checked before being guaranteed by the KC.

Good post and so very true. I know AB,s who breed none stop, litter after litter and charge top prices for what are basically pet bred pups. Another thing that really annoys me is well know people allowing these ABs to use their stud dogs!!!!!!!!!!! You just have to look at the BRS to see what I mean.

In an ideal world, [ha ha] breeding would only take place when the bitches owner wants a puppy to continue their line and bring on a pup to show. After all, most litters, show, race or what ever will be sold on after the owners choice is made, as pets, pets only! It would cut down the numbers of ill thought out litters, the people who have a litter just because they think it would be fun.

Things were so much better about 15 to 18 years ago, at least breeders thought about what they were doing. Another thought, why cant' the KC appoint home checkers from the whippet clubs and the Breed Council, that way the wrong doers would be ousted, [bit strong] :'( .

I'd better stop now before I get shot :lol:

Well it would be a bit of a bugger if the person chosen to check you was someone who could not give an unbiased opinion, for whatever reason

 

[~Annie~]

The Kennel Club have allowed a golden opportunity to slip by. When they introduced their code of conduct that they expect all breed clubs to adopt, why on earth did they not apply this to their own clubs registration department???? It would instantly stop these people from over breeding, breeders from having two litters at the same time or within a couple of weeks between breeding. They could have stated that anyone breeding more than one litter in any 12 months would not be allowed to register their litter.I know it's draconian, but how can we protect our breed from people who exploit them and breed purely for cash. After all, having to litters at the same time can only be for money.

I can see why you might be concerned about breeders with multiple litters on the ground but I'm struggling to see what's wrong with breeding 2 litters from different bitches in a 12 mth period. I have a friend who this year chose to breed a second litter from her bitch and to breed from her keeper from that bitches first litter. She wasn't breeding for money and has, as intended, kept a pup from each litter. She won't be breeding at all next year, didn't last year, and has only bred these 3 litters in total, so why would her 2 litters this year be reason to disallow registration. She could have chosen to breed once from each bitch in consecutive years and would have bred the same number of puppies in total. Surely it's not how many litters in any given year (within reason) that's the problem, but how many pups overall. Personally I think bitches should be limited to 3 litters max, with at least a year between litters, but that's just my opinion.