Breeding To Keep.

[ROSIE MEADOWS]

Join our free community today.

Connect with other like-minded dog lovers!

Login or Register

I was browsing with interest some of the topics about breeding and about breeding pet dogs in particular. As I have all ready said, I'm hoping to have a puppy from a litter that should be due at the end of January. The breeder (as I said before) doesn't want any of the pups shown as she is not keen on the show scene.

What I do not understand is why some people are so against breeding not for the show ring! :unsure:

Surely to breed from a pair of beautiful, healthy and loved dogs cannot be wrong. To want the offspring from beloved pets is not so hard to understand. The suggestion that we (would be pet owners) should only buy the outcasts from a "show bred" litter appals me. Does that mean that we plebs should not have children but leave it to the aristocrats to populate the world? I am sure the health of the nation would suffer if nothing else.

Sorry to lead off but pet owners are not second class citizens and neither are pet dogs.

 

[Seraphina]

I prefer to sell to pet homes because if dog goes to a show home and does not do as well as the owner expected it is very likely the dog will be passed on. The pet home is more likely to be for-ever home.

In theory the dogs winning are the best of the best and therefore worth breeding from. I would not consider pet puppies from a breeder to be rejects, the difference between the one the breeder keeps and the "pet" pup from the same litter may be minuscule. Not to mention that dogs change as they grow and I have more than once seen the "reject" puppy to turn out really nicely, while the promising one quite ordinary.

As far as breeding by people who do not show goes; it is more the fact that there is already too many dogs around competing for too few homes, and many young healthy dogs are being put down. To breed a dogs that are good representatives of a breed you need to put lot of time in research and practical experience to be able to understand what are your dog's good points and what are her weaknesses, and how to mate her to improve on her. Most pet owners could not be bothered with that, they just mate their bitch to the first willing dog. They then pick their pick of the litter and have to place the 6 - 8 remaining pups, which may not be as easy as they thought. in any case if you buy a pup from such a person you also will get the pup they did not want = "reject".

 

[JAX]

I prefer to sell to pet homes because if dog goes to a show home and does not do as well as the owner expected it is very likely the dog will be passed on.  The pet home is more likely to be for-ever home.
In theory the dogs winning are the best of the best and therefore worth breeding from.  I would not consider pet puppies from a breeder to be rejects, the difference between the one the breeder keeps and the "pet" pup from the same litter may be minuscule.  Not to mention that dogs change as they grow and I have more than once seen the "reject" puppy to turn out really nicely, while the promising one quite ordinary. 

As far as breeding by people who do not show goes; it is more the fact that there is already too many dogs around competing for too few homes, and many young healthy dogs are being put down.  To breed a dogs that are good representatives of a breed you need to put lot of time in research and practical experience to be able to understand what are your dog's good points and what are her weaknesses, and how to mate her to improve on her.  Most pet owners could not be bothered with that, they just mate their bitch to the first willing dog.  They then pick their pick of the litter and have to place the 6 - 8 remaining pups, which may not be as easy as they thought.  in any case if you buy a pup from such a person you also will get the pup they did not want = "reject". 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

my thoughts too :cheers: 100% agree with you :huggles:

 

[ROSIE MEADOWS]

The litter I am talking about as regards my puppy will be from very well bred dogs (a Dumbriton sire and a Courthill bitch). My point was that as they are healthy and beautiful should breeders like this be slated just because they want to place all the pups in pet homes and keep some themselves. Surely the "show bred litter" is also at risk as regards being destroyed as they contribute as many if not more pups to the population. Perhaps fewer "show dogs" should be bred. I find it very selfish of people to assume that they have the "right" to breed "show" dogs and the riff raff should be grateful to them for "improving" the breed.

 

[jayp]

I would just say as a generalisation only, show breeders endeavor to breed to the whippet breed standard and some pet breeders have probably never read it.

 

[ROSIE MEADOWS]

I would just say as a generalisation only, show breeders endeavor to breed to the whippet breed standard and some pet breeders have probably never read it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I quite agree, some probably never have. But if you placed a good selection of winners together you may be excused for wondering which judges were correct in their placings. The breed standard sometimes doesn't appear to be very "standard". A very personal interpretation . I am not a show person but this much is obvious even to me. One mans meat!

 

[Seraphina]

The litter I am talking about as regards my puppy will be from very well bred dogs (a Dumbriton sire and a Courthill bitch).  My point was that as they are healthy and beautiful should breeders like this be slated just because they want to place all the pups in pet homes and keep some themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

. I am not talking about this particular case, I have no idea who these people are, how much they know or do not know about breeding. Did they bred this litter to keep a pup for showing and going on with their breeding program, or do they own 2 pet dogs from well known kennels and had a litter because they want another pet?

 

[Seraphina]

The litter I am talking about as regards my puppy will be from very well bred dogs (a Dumbriton sire and a Courthill bitch).  My point was that as they are healthy and beautiful

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

All pups are beautiful, even the ones that come from unplanned litters, and if both parents are well fed and cared for = wormed etc) they will also be healthy. But just because the parents are both well bred that does not mean that they suit each other. In general, unless people breed with some goal in mind I do not think they should breed.

 

[ROSIE MEADOWS]

The litter I am talking about as regards my puppy will be from very well bred dogs (a Dumbriton sire and a Courthill bitch).  My point was that as they are healthy and beautiful should breeders like this be slated just because they want to place all the pups in pet homes and keep some themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

. I am not talking about this particular case, I have no idea who these people are, how much they know or do not know about breeding. Did they bred this litter to keep a pup for showing and going on with their breeding program, or do they own 2 pet dogs from well known kennels and had a litter because they want another pet?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I used this case only as an example to prove that not all non showing litters are bred indiscriminately. This particular breeder wants to keep two from the litter for herself as she adores her pets. She has a waiting list for the other pups so I will be lucky (in my opinion) to get one. She has as far as I know (I cannot speak for her) no intention of showing them.

 

[saraquele]

i do not disagree with people breeding for pets only on a few conditions .

if the parents are good specimins , free of any health/temprament problems and the owners are not doing it for profit then i dont have a great problem.

i do not like it when people breed too often , either from the same bitch or diffrent bitches , people who do not have the pups / bitches best intrest at heart.

people like that are just puppy farmers , just in it for profit and will sell a pup to anyone who turns up with the cash :rant:

but if people do breed for pet only , as long as the bitch and the pups get well looked after and care is taken to find the right homes then i dont see a problem.

yes the market is overflowing with too many puppies of all breeds but it would be unfair , imho , to say only show people can breed .

i just wish that the real problem , the puppy farmers , not the few people who do wish to have one litter as pet only , should be cracked down on :rant:

there are a lot of people who have the odd litter but its the puppy farmers who flood the market mostly :rant:

 

[FeeFee]

http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/press_office/s...007/statistics/

The sad fact is that in this nation of animal lovers around 8,000 unwanted stray dogs are put to sleep in our council pounds every year. Many of these are young, healthy, pedigree dogs. The plain truth is that we breed more dogs than there will possibly ever be homes for.

From that perspective I feel people shouldn't be asking "why not breed", but should only be breeding if there is an overwhelming reason why they should, such as passing on outstanding bloodlines or improving the breed in some way.

 

[ROSIE MEADOWS]

I hear what people are saying but why breed so many show litters. The people that do so are hungry to win and just sometimes the best interest of the individual is not always paramount!

Besides as I said before, should ordinary people not have children. Should the world be populated by the aristocracy? Are your childred bred from a mate chosen to produce prize winning progeny

 

[Seraphina]

Allowing a litter to be born is a huge responsibility. I always feel responsible for wellbeing of the dogs I have brought into the world for their whole lives. I wonder how many of the people who "just wanted a baby from their beloved pets" are prepared to take one, two or more back down the track?

I do not know how these people got their orders, here I only sell my pups easily because I show my dogs. I have not sold any puppy by chance. I have also seen many people over the years who bred their bitches (various breeds and mixtures) against my advice. Their argument being they want one for themselves and they know "heaps of people who want a pup" and "everybody admires their bitch" etc. Then the whole litter, or most of it, is taken to RSPCA at 3 or 4 months of age, because they cannot find homes for them.

You are right, there are breeders who could learn more about genetics, anatomy and skeletal structure of dogs. I have read every book about dog breeding since I was 10 and still have lot to learn. I find it rather puzzling that people who do not even want to learn think they should have the right to bring pups into the world, just because they want one.

 

[Seraphina]

http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/press_office/s...007/statistics/
The sad fact is that in this nation of animal lovers around 8,000 unwanted stray dogs are put to sleep in our council pounds every year. Many of these are young, healthy, pedigree dogs. The plain truth is that we breed more dogs than there will possibly ever be homes for.

From that perspective I feel people shouldn't be asking "why not breed", but should only be breeding if there is an overwhelming reason why they should, such as passing on outstanding bloodlines or improving the breed in some way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

In OZ all dogs have to be microchipped so it is easier to know where they come from, and over the past few years RSPCA acknowledged that only very tiny fraction of animals that come through their kennels originated from registered breeders. In our park out of the 60 or so regular dogs, only 5, that I can think of, are registered purebreds. Rest are crosses or very poor representatives of their breed, for instance one "Whippet" is considerably smaller than my girls, but too big and heavy boned for pure Iggy. She was sold by the shelter as a pure Whippet. The thing is often people there do not have enough knowledge to know what is pure and what not.

 

[ROSIE MEADOWS]

Allowing a litter to be born is a huge responsibility.  I always feel responsible for wellbeing of the dogs I have brought into the world for their whole lives.  I wonder how many of the people who "just wanted a baby from their beloved pets" are prepared to take one, two or more back down the track?  I do not know how these people got their orders, here I only sell my pups easily because I show my dogs.  I have not sold any puppy by chance.  I have also seen many people over the years who bred their bitches (various breeds and mixtures) against my advice.  Their argument being they want one for themselves and they know "heaps of people who want a pup" and "everybody admires their bitch" etc.  Then the whole litter, or most of it, is taken to RSPCA at 3 or 4  months of age, because they cannot find homes for them.

You are right, there are breeders who could learn more about genetics, anatomy and skeletal structure of dogs.  I have read every book about dog breeding since I was 10 and still have lot to learn.  I find it rather puzzling that people who do not even want to learn think they should have the right to bring pups into the world, just because they want one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Yes it is a huge responsibility for any breeder. A showing person doesn't automatically become responsible because they show. This breeder told me that if I did have a puppy that it was to return to her if I had any problem whatsoever. I don't see showing as the be all and end all that it is being projected as. To me and many like me, (I perhaps know more purely pet owners than you do), a dog is for life (unlike many show animals) and companionship and loving. As for finding homes, it is a minority of the population that drag around the country showing. It is not a part of most peoples lives.

 

[Seraphina]

  A showing person doesn't automatically become responsible because they show.  I don't see showing as the be all and end all that it is being projected as.    As for finding homes, it is a minority of the population that drag around the country showing.  It is not a part of most peoples lives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

No showing does not make a person responsible, but to show successfully person has to learn bit about dogs and the breed.

And as I said in my 1st post i prefer to sell my pups to forever pet homes. But if somebody wants to breed they ought to put in the time learning about the breed and understanding what sort of mate their bitch needs, and that means watching lot of dogs, as well as doing lots of reading. The best way to gain practical experience is in the dog show. If people do not wish to gain that knowledge and experience why should they have the right to breed?

 

[ROSIE MEADOWS]

  A showing person doesn't automatically become responsible because they show.  I don't see showing as the be all and end all that it is being projected as.    As for finding homes, it is a minority of the population that drag around the country showing.  It is not a part of most peoples lives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

No showing does not make a person responsible, but to show successfully person has to learn bit about dogs and the breed.

And as I said in my 1st post i prefer to sell my pups to forever pet homes. But if somebody wants to breed they ought to put in the time learning about the breed and understanding what sort of mate their bitch needs, and that means watching lot of dogs, as well as doing lots of reading. The best way to gain practical experience is in the dog show. If people do not wish to gain that knowledge and experience why should they have the right to breed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

What gives anybody the right to say they can't? I really wish that people, knowlegable or not, would only breed with the dogs wellbeing in mind. The way of the world is that this will not happen but we cannot condem all people because of some. In the same way we cannot hold show breeders to be all good. There is good and bad in both. As long as an animal is sound in wind and limb (some inbreds aren't!) then that should be a priority. I may not be experienced in dog showing but I was brought up on a farm and taught good husbandry from the cradle. Experience is not all about showing!

 

[urchin]

Firstly, I aknowledge that there ares some hugely responsible show breeders out there - but on the whole I do not believe that the show standards set by various awarding bodies actually do dogs many favours.

For example, years of show breeding has turned the English Bulldog from a pretty sensible breed to one with breathing difficulties which relies on surgery to give birth!.....and they really aren't the only breed to be riddled with health problems due to what some society has decreed is the 'ideal specimen'

So I guess it comes down to - who decides what constitutes improvement of the breed?

Different people have different 'jobs' for their dogs to do; for some it's compete in the ring, for others it's to race, or to work, or simply to provide companionship............I find it an arrogant assumption that only one of these groups (with thier set of priorities), is breeding responsibly.

 

[Seraphina]

For example, years of show breeding has turned the English Bulldog from a pretty sensible breed to one with breathing difficulties which relies on surgery to give birth!.....and they really aren't the only breed to be riddled with health problems due to what some society has decreed is the 'ideal specimen'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

The question is; was it the standard or was it the people who misunderstood the standard and bred dogs ever more exaggerated, as well as judges who put up the most exaggerated specimen. And another question is, would the breed if left to backyard breeders, with no knowledge at all, look any better?

I always say to people who are starting out - when the standard says long that does not mean the longer the better, or wide or heavy etc. I have been arguing for years that something along these lines should be included in every standard.



By the way, I wonder what would the breeders of this sire and dam have to say if they knew that the dogs they sold as pets are being used for breeding?

I actually do not have too much problem with people breeding one litter if they want to keep some - there certainly are worse and more important things happening in the dog world. However, in principle people should not be breeding for pet market only, because there is plenty of dogs already.

 

[Ridgesetter]

Experience is not all about showing!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I'm not really sure what your concern is, but I have to say that although I grew up with many animals and have attainted various certificates on animal husbandry, hold a CGC instructors certificate, worked in various animal industry jobs, showing dogs has taught me heaps and more importantly, taught me that I don't know everything. It's a constant learning curve.

Yes, showing dogs is competitive but it's no different to many other sports. There are good and bad people but that's not confined to dog exhibitors. In the long run, quality dogs win consistently and success breeds success.

Buyers determine the market and the trends of breeds. In Australia, we have a huge number of designer breeds - you name it, we've got it - and they sell for more than most purebred, pedigreed dogs. Many of these dogs have poor temperaments and there are very few breeders who are carrying out any genetic tests (PRA, cardiac, hips, elbows, etc.) and the veterinary profession has spoken out about the problems they are seeing. Will that stop the indiscrimate breeding? No, because people are ignorant and haven't researched Poodles, Lagottas, Bichons. Do they know there are 3 sizes in poodles and do they query which size poodle is behind their designer breed? Generally not. Do they consider that crossing a Pug with a Shih Tzu is a terrible thing? No, because they want to be the first to own that designer breed. I sincerely and honestly don't believe that the majority of these designer breeders understand how to assess temperament of a litter and nor do they follow up after the sale. Breeding designer dogs is a ticket to make money. No-one controls the breeders. Around the world, at least registered purebred breeders have to abide by certain ethics from the canine controlling bodies.

Just because one isn't a professional tennis player, doesn't mean you can't play the game socially. Just because you don't show dogs doesn't mean you can't breed (as we see very much in Oz). However, if for example, I wanted to learn tennis (or any other sport), I would go to a successful professional player. The same applies to purchasing a dog. If I wanted a good natured, healthy pet, I believe I would be more likely to get that from a successful exhibitor / breeder. :thumbsup:

Please forgive the length of my post but as you will understand, I'm passionate about supporting purebred registered dog breeders. We seem to be blamed for every stray and unwanted dog.

You've put a lot of research into choosing your puppy and I'm sure you'll have many wonderful years ahead with your new puppy. :cheers: Good luck.

Toni