Cesar Millan

[dabroad]

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We should do what we feel is best for our dogs! after all it is about them not us! My opinions are my opinions and they work for me but not everybodies the same and i respect that! As long as we all get a healthy happy dog at the end of it i don't think it really matters what way we do it! And cesar works for me! :thumbsup:

 

[~Annie~]

Genuine question (I'm not trying to stir) ... but when you say Cesar works for you which of his methods do you apply in which situations. I'm just wondering how much of what you are doing is peculiar to his approach, and how much is what other trainers also offer versions of in their books etc.

 

[beaker]

well you see now, i just don't view Cesar Millan as a dog trainer at all, i view him as a dog and pack psychologist,

so as such i can't compare him to any of the canine trainers or their training techniques,

if you use canine psychology (Cesar Millans way or not) to make your dog an accepted and relaxed pack/family member then use reward based methods to "train" your dog, i don't think you can go too wrong,

the main problems and misuses of his methods come from people who are either natural bullies who solely employ his more firm techniques regardless of the situation, or people who are unable to read their dogs body language and react in the wrong way.

 

[dabroad]

I use the clicking of the fingers and the loud (spary) noise. Also bite hand gestures on the neck applied lightly to snap them out of them doing something they shouldn't be! I don't kick my dogs or push them to the floor neither do i hold them down. They stay there until i feel they calmed down. They end up sometimes falling asleep where they become so relaxed they cant be bothered to get back up and start doing the naughty again! For example pickle was running around loose with lui today and started chasing him at full speed then bit him hard on the but till he yelped. So i pointed my finger to the floor near me and she came straight me and layed on her side. She stays like it till i move away from her but she's not got her tail between her legs or whites of her eyes showing just exepts me dominating her and i tend to use it as a method not just of dominance but to calm her state. I sometimes rub her belly wen she's really relaxed. It works! Not evrything cesar does i use i mix a bit of him with my own thinking and it works for me!

 

[~Annie~]

I use the clicking of the fingers and the loud (spary) noise. Also bite hand gestures on the neck applied lightly to snap them out of them doing something they shouldn't be! I don't kick my dogs or push them to the floor neither do i hold them down. They stay there until i feel they calmed down. They end up sometimes falling asleep where they become so relaxed they cant be bothered to get back up and start doing the naughty again! For example pickle was running around loose with lui today and started chasing him at full speed then bit him hard on the but till he yelped. So i pointed my finger to the floor near me and she came straight me and layed on her side. She stays like it till i move away from her but she's not got her tail between her legs or whites of her eyes showing just exepts me dominating her and i tend to use it as a method not just of dominance but to calm her state. I sometimes rub her belly wen she's really relaxed. It works! Not evrything cesar does i use i mix a bit of him with my own thinking and it works for me!

Thank you ... and interesting :thumbsup: I take Beakers point above but I do think some of what you describe is common to other trainers who use canine psychology to inform their reward based training

 

[FeeFee]

I pin mine down when mine are out of line and it works.

Pinning a dog down by it's neck does not harm a dog.

I don't kick my dogs or push them to the floor neither do i hold them down.

So do you pin your dogs down or don't you? :unsure:

I absolutely agree that it's good to use a range of training methods and go with what works for a particular dog, I have five very different personalities here and I vary what I do with them to suit the dog. I've read pretty widely about different training methods over the years and I've also been lucky enough to work with some excellent trainers all of whom do things in slightly different ways. It's always fascinating to see how someone else approaches things and learn from that. The exception is that I don't EVER use methods that involve manhandling my dogs in any way.

 

[Lal]

I absolutely agree that it's good to use a range of training methods and go with what works for a particular dog, I have five very different personalities here and I vary what I do with them to suit the dog. I've read pretty widely about different training methods over the years and I've also been lucky enough to work with some excellent trainers all of whom do things in slightly different ways. It's always fascinating to see how someone else approaches things and learn from that. The exception is that I don't EVER use methods that involve manhandling my dogs in any way.

:thumbsup: ^ This^ :thumbsup:

:- Mind you, perhaps if I'd manhandled my son a bit more I'd have more control............he's now 15 and 6'4"!!

 

[TTT]

Speaking of the 'spray' noise - I have always used this as a way to wind my dogs up, to let them know to be alert, ready to do something exciting like catch a rat, run fast, mad play/ragging.

 

[dabroad]

I have done the biting technique on there neck and have pinned them down before but i tend not to anymore as i don't need to usually! All i do is point and they do as there told! :thumbsup:

 

[Lal]

A little off topic but, still on the lines of TV Dog Training, today I watched an old episode of 'Dog Borstal'. Not a programme I'd ever watched but I was quite shocked at how physical some of the training methods were. Ok, one of the cases was a dog who had repeatedly bitten his owners, but to see him hung from his collar did not make comfortable viewing, particularly when it was obvious his owners were a bit clueless, the dog had been given 'mixed messages' from being a pup and was nervous and thus aggressive. This was far worse than anything I have ever seen from the Cesar Millan programmes I have seen. The dog did not 'graduate' from Dog Borstal and, on the programme was said to be 'on probation'. My money is on the dog having been PTS shortly afterwards.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that the 'quick fix' does not exist, and any TV programme that portrays it as such is creating problems. Training any dog requires commitment and understanding, with a 'problem' dog even more so. We live in a 'quick fix' society, person gets pup, pup presents a problem, quick fix as shown on TV doesn't work, dog ends up in rehoming shelter (if it is lucky!) or PTS or just chucked out!

If I sound a little passionate about this topic it is through recent personal experience with a neighbour - cute puppy, totally unsuitable environment, lack of exercise, basic training, socialisation etc = problem puppy! Puppy is no longer 'cute' therefore they are going to get rid of it (because it is a problem) and get another :rant: Although this same little dog got into my garden, attacked my dog (had hold of him by the throat and would not let go, vets bill etc later!), I still feel desperately sorry for him because his behaviour is not his own fault, it is the product of ignorant people being allowed to own dogs. When this little dog escaped recently (never walked so makes a bid for freedom!) it was my son and I that walked for miles and found him. There are people who should never own dogs, this family would be perfect for a TV programme where the problems would be portrayed as being 'dog' problems - it's not the dog it's the stupid owners!!!

Sorry friends :rant: :rant: :rant: rant over!!

 

[beaker]

A little off topic but, still on the lines of TV Dog Training, today I watched an old episode of 'Dog Borstal'. Not a programme I'd ever watched but I was quite shocked at how physical some of the training methods were. Ok, one of the cases was a dog who had repeatedly bitten his owners, but to see him hung from his collar did not make comfortable viewing, particularly when it was obvious his owners were a bit clueless, the dog had been given 'mixed messages' from being a pup and was nervous and thus aggressive. This was far worse than anything I have ever seen from the Cesar Millan programmes I have seen. The dog did not 'graduate' from Dog Borstal and, on the programme was said to be 'on probation'. My money is on the dog having been PTS shortly afterwards.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that the 'quick fix' does not exist, and any TV programme that portrays it as such is creating problems. Training any dog requires commitment and understanding, with a 'problem' dog even more so. We live in a 'quick fix' society, person gets pup, pup presents a problem, quick fix as shown on TV doesn't work, dog ends up in rehoming shelter (if it is lucky!) or PTS or just chucked out!

If I sound a little passionate about this topic it is through recent personal experience with a neighbour - cute puppy, totally unsuitable environment, lack of exercise, basic training, socialisation etc = problem puppy! Puppy is no longer 'cute' therefore they are going to get rid of it (because it is a problem) and get another :rant: Although this same little dog got into my garden, attacked my dog (had hold of him by the throat and would not let go, vets bill etc later!), I still feel desperately sorry for him because his behaviour is not his own fault, it is the product of ignorant people being allowed to own dogs. When this little dog escaped recently (never walked so makes a bid for freedom!) it was my son and I that walked for miles and found him. There are people who should never own dogs, this family would be perfect for a TV programme where the problems would be portrayed as being 'dog' problems - it's not the dog it's the stupid owners!!!

Sorry friends :rant: :rant: :rant: rant over!!

that wasn't the Kelpie was it? i remember that one :blink:

 

[Lal]

that wasn't the Kelpie was it? i remember that one :blink:

Yes it was, I had to switch it off at one point because I couldn't bear to hear the dog screaming and panicking, and the owner yelling at the dog.

 

[wild whippies]

Must admit I haven't watched any episodes about this guy but then having 22 dogs to look after, we're obviously busy doing other things! :lol:

One thing that did stand out to me was Fee Fee's link with the comment:

many pets will benefit from consistency, firm boundaries and increased exercise

the only thing I'd add to the above is rewards because this usually motivates our dogs as well (saying that though, it's the consistency of receiving a reward that instills the motivation anyway)

There's a lot to be said about the owner, folk can read Cesar Milan, Roger Mugford, Barbara Woodhouse - whichever ''top dog trainer'' is the latest guru but if they're a complete numpty then their dogs are going to have issues regardless.

I think Beaker nailed it here:

if you use canine psychology (Cesar Millans way or not) to make your dog an accepted and relaxed pack/family member then use reward based methods to "train" your dog, i don't think you can go too wrong,the main problems and misuses of his methods come from people who are either natural bullies who solely employ his more firm techniques regardless of the situation, or people who are unable to read their dogs body language and react in the wrong way.

Let's face it, some people have ''dog sense'' and some just don't.

 

[gypsysmum]

I watched an episode where his "cure" for a food aggressive Bernese Mountain Dog was to put it in a cart and get it to pull it!!! Now how is the dog supposed to make the connection?? The poor dog, incidentally, was terrified.

If you listened carefully to the history of this dog he had been the runt of the litter. Now you are all there with me aren't you? He had to fight for his food in the litter and so learned to guard it before his owners even got him.

Cesar Milan's techniques of "showing him who's boss" were totally misguided with this poor dog.

All he needed was to be taught that no one was going to steal his food!

As others have said we have much better people over here. People like Peter Neville, Sarah Whitehead who, I know, have been approached to do tv work and refused because they could not have editorial control. They knew that all the important stuff would end up on the cutting room floor.

 

[jinnyfizz]

They knew that all the important stuff would end up on the cutting room floor.

Oh, how true!!!!

And this is the key to the whole thing .......... it's all about ratings and getting people watching the tv and the ads during the breaks :angry:

Reality doesn't really come into it .............. money, money, money

 

[FeeFee]

A little off topic but, still on the lines of TV Dog Training, today I watched an old episode of 'Dog Borstal'. Not a programme I'd ever watched but I was quite shocked at how physical some of the training methods were.

I'm not a fan of Dog Borstal either, I saw that episode with the Sheltie and it was really distressing

Come to think of it I'm probably just a grumpy git who shouldn't watch TV dog training :b

The problem is that training a dog is (or should be imo) a gradual, gentle process without any big confrontations or drama which may be good for the dog and the owner but would make very boring TV :lol:

 

[Lal]

A little off topic but, still on the lines of TV Dog Training, today I watched an old episode of 'Dog Borstal'. Not a programme I'd ever watched but I was quite shocked at how physical some of the training methods were.

I'm not a fan of Dog Borstal either, I saw that episode with the Sheltie and it was really distressing

Come to think of it I'm probably just a grumpy git who shouldn't watch TV dog training :b

The problem is that training a dog is (or should be imo) a gradual, gentle process without any big confrontations or drama which may be good for the dog and the owner but would make very boring TV :lol:

Couldn't agree more (not to the grumpy git bit, but come to think of it I'm probably a bit the same lol!!) :thumbsup:

 

[wilfred]

As others have said we have much better people over here. People like Peter Neville, Sarah Whitehead who, I know, have been approached to do tv work and refused because they could not have editorial control. They knew that all the important stuff would end up on the cutting room floor.

Precisely. People who avidly watch so many of the TV "dog training" programmes don't always realise the timescales involved and the careful editing which goes on. There are no quick fixes in effective dog training; it's a life-long process. Perhaps it's the case that, because people such as Cesar Millan seem compelling personalities on the TV screen, desperate people who don't know that there are effective alternatives to bullying, grasp CM's methods as being the answer to the problem they are experiencing with their dog; this is a shame for them and their companion animal.

And speaking of Peter Neville, Sarah Whitehead et al, add to the list of responsible trainers people such as Jean Donaldson, Karen Pryor, Dr Ian Dunbar (who I know's been mentioned earlier in this thread); people who understand that to train dogs (and other animals) effectively, pain and fear DO NOT have to be part of that process.

Here's an interesting link on the subject:

http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/jean-donaldson.html

 

[wilfred]

and I think this article is worth quoting, as well. At the end I've put the link to it by way of referencing it.

QUOTE:

"Those who are defending Cesar are using the same tired and debunked arguments that have been thrown at critics for years.

1. “You’ve obviously never watched the show.” Many of the professionals who have spoken out against the methods on the show have watched and can site multiple episodes.

2. “You’re just jealous of his success.” If that were the case, wouldn’t we just call ourselves ‘dog whisperers’ like so many so-called trainers who are attempting to profit from the success of the show?

3. “You would just have those dogs rehomed or euthanized.” Considering the vast library of continuing education seminars, books and DVD’s by professional trainers outlining specific techniques to modify aggressive behavior without the use of pain, fear or force, this claim is also untrue.

4. “It worked great on my dog.” In research, this is called n=1, meaning the research is based on the reaction of one subject. If a medication didn’t cause a serious problem for 1/100 people, would you trust it?

5. “He works with dogs other trainers won’t/you don’t have experience working with ‘red zone’ dogs”. False and false. Aggression is not a mystery – because of the research done both in labs and in the field, we understand the most common causes of aggression. Aggressive behavior is normal, not ‘red zone’ and it is rarely the result of dominance (some old veterinary texts say otherwise, but those were published before the resarch of the last decade).

Yes, we watch the show. Yes, we work with serious aggression cases. No, we don’t immediately recommend euthanasia because a dog is aggressive. No, we’re not jealous or promoting our own agenda (also known as scientifically proven methods).

What many of the posters on this thread fail to realize is that the vast majority of trainers speaking out against Cesar’s methods have extensive experience using those methods 10, 20 or even 30 years ago and have seen first-hand the problems they can create.

There is a whole world of canine behavior available to those who want to learn more than the over-simplified explanations of dominance and submission. If you are willing to put aside your beliefs as I was 10 years ago and be open to learning more, think of the good you can do for your dog and others."

END QUOTE

http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/to-tho...-defend-cm.html

 

[~Annie~]

@ Wilfred