Cheating?

[jthatton]

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I will probably get shunned for this posting by some but I feel I must see what other people think. KC regulations for the preparation of dogs for exhibition state:

"2a No substance which alters the natural colour, texture or body of the coat may be present in the dog's coat for any purpose at any time during the show"

"2b Any other substance (other than water) which may be used in the preparation of a dog for exhibition must not be allowed to remain in the coat or any other part of the dog at the time of exhibition".

"1a A dog found to be in breach of these regulations will automatically be disqualified from exhibition at the show and from any award gained there at."

The above regulations, in full, are printed in all the schedules I have seen.

As a person new to whippets I have been shocked to see the above rules been openly broken at Champ and Open shows. At a recent Championship Show (December) I saw two well know breeders whitening parts of their dogs with chalk and talc before entering the ring. This was done in full view of all present. In a critique one of these dogs was noted to have a striking colouring so had obviously caught the eye of the judge.

As well as showing I am an active sportsman and like to think "British fairplay" is important. I believe in any competitive event you gain the upper hand and win through skill and ability, not by breaking the rules. THIS IS CALLED CHEATING and puts those that follow the rules at a disadvantage at times.

Is this cheating widespread? Why is it overlooked? Is it because some of those doing it are long established breeders and judges and people are scared to confront them?

James

 

[maggie217]

"2a No substance which alters the natural colour, texture or body of the coat may be present in the dog's coat for any purpose at any time during the show""2b Any other substance (other than water) which may be used in the preparation of a dog for exhibition must not be allowed to remain in the coat or any other part of the dog at the time of exhibition".

I saw two well know breeders whitening parts of their dogs with chalk and talc before entering the ring.

James

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I believe it is okay to whiten the coat with chalk or talc in preparation for the show ring as long as all traces are brushed out again

Pauline

 

[dolly]

The Kennel CLub can at any given time do a coat test, if the coat has found to have illegal substances in it, any award that exhibit may be taken ofit.

I was at Midland Counties in 2006 at the KC did test several coats intop winning dogs, although i believe none of them were whippets

 

[jthatton]

"2a No substance which alters the natural colour, texture or body of the coat may be present in the dog's coat for any purpose at any time during the show"

"2b Any other substance (other than water) which may be used in the preparation of a dog for exhibition must not be allowed to remain in the coat or any other part of the dog at the time of exhibition".

I saw two well know breeders whitening parts of their dogs with chalk and talc before entering the ring.

James

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I believe it is okay to whiten the coat with chalk or talc in preparation for the show ring as long as all traces are brushed out again

Pauline

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Surely if all traces are brushed out then there's no point in doing it. I believe the chalk and talc is there to give the dog an illegal disadvantage ...ie to cheat

 

[Alayna Morland]

If you feel strongly at any show you see this you can put 35 pound down and complain to the Kennel Club, however this goes on in most breeds and I think most of the champ show judges on this forum will agree that they judge on confirmation and movement and not how white the dog is!

Alayna x

 

[maggie217]

"2a No substance which alters the natural colour, texture or body of the coat may be present in the dog's coat for any purpose at any time during the show"

"2b Any other substance (other than water) which may be used in the preparation of a dog for exhibition must not be allowed to remain in the coat or any other part of the dog at the time of exhibition".

I saw two well know breeders whitening parts of their dogs with chalk and talc before entering the ring.

James

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I believe it is okay to whiten the coat with chalk or talc in preparation for the show ring as long as all traces are brushed out again

Pauline

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Surely if all traces are brushed out then there's no point in doing it. I believe the chalk and talc is there to give the dog an illegal disadvantage ...ie to cheat

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The point in doing it is that dirt and grubby marks will come out with the chalk and talc when it is brushed out, leaving the coat looking cleaner

Pauline

 

[JAX]

IMO , if a dog is placed higher because its white bits are extra white I wouldnt think much about the judge ,

On the other hand , if a judge placed a dirty, grubby looking dog above a cleaner dog of similar quality , now thats different thing .

Chalking a whippets white bits do not alter the coat condition . just emphasise

Personally , I wouldnt say its cheating

 

[jthatton]

IMO , if a dog is placed higher because its white bits are extra white I wouldnt think much about the judge ,
On the other hand , if a judge placed a dirty, grubby looking dog above a cleaner dog of similar quality , now thats different thing .

Chalking a whippets white bits do not alter the coat condition . just emphasise

Personally , I wouldnt say its cheating

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I DISAGREE JAX. THE RULES STATE IF IT ALTERS THE COLOUR IT IS WRONG. USING WORDS SUCH AS "EMPHASISE" DOESN'T ALTER THE RULES.

 

[maggie217]

Chalk and talc and similar preparations are used when showing many kinds of livestock. The point isn't to make the coat look whiter by leaving the chalk etc in the coat, but to use it as a type of dry shampoo. It will bring dirt out of the coat when it is brushed out again. I do agree it should never be left in the coat, but that doesn't mean it is wrong to use it as a method of cleaning the coat.

Pauline

 

[Avalonia]

IMO , if a dog is placed higher because its white bits are extra white I wouldnt think much about the judge ,
On the other hand , if a judge placed a dirty, grubby looking dog above a cleaner dog of similar quality , now thats different thing .

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I'm with Jax on this one. If a judge is going to put up a dog based on the excellence of the whiteness in that part of its coat you would have to question who on earth gave that judge credentials to judge in the first place, and who would be stupid enough to show under them knowing their obsession with whiter than white! (w00t) .

Here in North America chalking is done with almost religious zeal by many exhibitors. We don't do it, never have, but we make sure our dogs are sparkling clean with a good bath on show day, and if they get a bit of dirt on their feet on the showground we will use a self-rinse to ensure the dirt is removed and they are clean for the judge before they are shown. There are some breeds where the standard suggested they be shown with their rough, ungroomed coat (Otterhounds, Irish Wolfhounds and PBGVs come to mind), but that didn't seem to last long over here as some exhibitors took dogs that looked like they had been exercised in a bog immediately prior to being show into the ring. Judging tables stocked handiwipes and paper towels for the hapless judges who had to inspect these specimens. Now everyone seems to clean their dogs.

What more concerns me over here, and I must say this is notably in the USA is the use of tattooing to enhance the eye rim 'mascara' and/or darken noses, and the doctoring of tail sets on breeds, including whippets. That is genuine alteration. Everyone knows dogs, breeders or handlers who have been done/or have this done on their dogs yet no one ever seems to be called to account for doing it.

Of course they may not take into account the fact that what has been altered for showing purposes may genetically reproduce itself when the dog is bred!

Lanny

 

[posh totty]

are we allowed to use chalk then? i have used it in past with the horses in show ring ? some people say yes it is allowed in the dog ring others say no it isnt? my whippet is all brindle so that wouldnt affect me but my ig lad has white legs and if the need ever arose to use chalk i would like to know if this was allowed or not? :thumbsup:

 

[jok]

I don't feel strongly on the subject either way, as others have said, you won't win on how white your dog is!

My predominantly white dog comes up absolutely sparkling after a bath. He wouldn't require any chalking.

However, i've seem the white on some look so grubby and yellow that i would be surprised if it ever came up clean whatever you did

 

[Shadow Dancer]

I will probably get shunned for this posting by some but I feel I must see what other people think.  KC regulations for the preparation of dogs for exhibition state:
"2a No substance which alters the natural colour, texture or body of the coat may be present in the dog's coat for any purpose at any time during the show"

"2b Any other substance (other than water) which may be used in the preparation of a dog for exhibition must not be allowed to remain in the coat or any other part of the dog at the time of exhibition".

"1a A dog found to be in breach of these regulations will automatically be disqualified from exhibition at the show and from any award gained there at."

The above regulations, in full, are printed in all the schedules I have seen.

As a person new to whippets I have been shocked to see the above rules been openly broken at Champ and Open shows. At a recent Championship Show (December) I saw two well know breeders whitening parts of their dogs with chalk and talc before entering the ring. This was done in full view of all present. In a critique one of these dogs was noted to have a striking colouring so had obviously caught the eye of the judge.

As well as showing I am an active sportsman and like to think "British fairplay" is important. I believe in any competitive event you gain the upper hand and win through skill and ability, not by breaking the rules. THIS IS CALLED CHEATING and puts those that follow the rules at a disadvantage at times.

Is this cheating widespread? Why is it overlooked? Is it because some of those doing it are long established breeders and judges and people are scared to confront them?

James

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Rules are rules at the end of the day! Like them or loathe them when we sign an entry form to show our dogs, we are bound by them.

When I have been judging (not whippets I hasten to add) it's appalling how many dirty dogs are brought into the ring by their handlers.

I have been taught over many years that you do all your winning at home - meaning that preparation at home is the key to success in the show ring (providing the dog is good enough of course). Clean and prepare your dogs at home the day before, ensure they are on clean bedding and kept out of mud on the day of the show and you won't need anything more to clean them up at the show.

Shire horse exhibitors use sawdust to dry mud out of their horses leg hair - as lots of dogs are bedded down on shavings I wonder what the KC would do if they tested a dogs coat and found a bit of sawdust in it????? JMHO :- "

Julie

 

[T Hoare]

I have not used Chalk or Talc on my dogs for around 15 years.

Nickel Coin was nearly all white, she turned 13 years in september, and never had whitener of any kind, rarely had a bath and I always had comments of how clean & white she looked.

I also havn't used spray on their coats, of any kind for many years(too many things to remember to do at shows as it is).

 

[dragonfly]

I thought the chalk rule was brought in with the aim of preventing the "TEXTURE" change it confers in the coats of some terrier breeds. Although against the rules chalking in whippets is highly unlikely to affect placings. I don't think you need to worry about cheating and gaining advantage by that method.

I was quite excited by your Topic headline, I thought someone was going to address a much more controversial issue!

Cathie

 

[jthatton]

Thank you for the interesting replies. IMO it is still breaking the rules and is cheating, but whether it gains an advantage or not is debatable.

 

But it still seems wrong to me. And exhibitors who are also judges and write books on the subject should be setting a better example.

 

Now then cathie what's the juicier cheating you are alluding to? Don't be a tease.

 

[ladyp]

I'VE SEEN POODLES WITH TOP KNOTS HELD INTO PLACE WITH HAIRSPRAY,IS THIS ALSO CHEATING? :- " :- " :- "

 

[wilfred]

I'VE SEEN POODLES WITH TOP KNOTS HELD INTO  PLACE WITH HAIRSPRAY,IS THIS ALSO CHEATING? :- "  :- "  :- "

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Yes! I've seen poodles being gone over whose topknots are stiff with hairspray - the hair wouldn't move!

And I've seen a handler spraying and spraying and SPRAYING hairspray on a poodle just before it went in the BIS ring, in open view :- " (w00t)

 

[Seraphina]

Thank you for the interesting replies. IMO it is still breaking the rules and is cheating, but whether it gains an advantage or not is debatable.

 

I would not call it cheating, but it is definitely breaking the rules. I do not believe that all the powder is brushed out, but I do not feel in disadvantage competing against chalked dogs with my clean not chalked up one. But I object to people chalking their dogs such a way that there are clouds of that stuff floating around in the air. I just do not wish to have breath it and it makes my dogs sneeze.

Saying that i have to admit i have just, for the first time in my life purchased a chalk block. That is because Claudia managed to get herself all dusty just before we were leaving for the show. I rubbed her legs with towel, tried to brush the dust out and in the end had to chalk her :b , and that made her sparling white. I am sure some of the chalk stayed in, even that it did not look like it. Just like the gray dust stayed in making her socks look dirty.

 

[seaspot_run]

I will probably get shunned for this posting by some but I feel I must see what other people think.  KC regulations for the preparation of dogs for exhibition state:
"2a No substance which alters the natural colour, texture or body of the coat may be present in the dog's coat for any purpose at any time during the show"

"2b Any other substance (other than water) which may be used in the preparation of a dog for exhibition must not be allowed to remain in the coat or any other part of the dog at the time of exhibition".

"1a A dog found to be in breach of these regulations will automatically be disqualified from exhibition at the show and from any award gained there at."

The above regulations, in full, are printed in all the schedules I have seen.

As a person new to whippets I have been shocked to see the above rules been openly broken at Champ and Open shows. At a recent Championship Show (December) I saw two well know breeders whitening parts of their dogs with chalk and talc before entering the ring. This was done in full view of all present. In a critique one of these dogs was noted to have a striking colouring so had obviously caught the eye of the judge.

As well as showing I am an active sportsman and like to think "British fairplay" is important. I believe in any competitive event you gain the upper hand and win through skill and ability, not by breaking the rules. THIS IS CALLED CHEATING and puts those that follow the rules at a disadvantage at times.

Is this cheating widespread? Why is it overlooked? Is it because some of those doing it are long established breeders and judges and people are scared to confront them?

James

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You would die if you came to the US and saw what goes on in the grooming areas.

Whippets are the LEAST of it. You have shelties with their ear tips loaded with lead filings so the ears tip and just TRY to get your fingers into the topknot of a poodle, so caked as it is with hair fixative. Noses are blackened, missing pigment is filled in via tattoo and all manner of foreign substances are to be found in coats. And yet, the best-selling "chalks" are ENGLISH chalks.

It was really a treat for me to come and do last March's assignment in England and not have a ring full of dogs who were overgroomed.

I think that over here in the states, despite what our regulations (which are much like yours) state, the emphasis is on cosmetics or alterations that HIDE a FAULT. So, if you simply make an already white area look whiter and more sparkley, then that's ok. If you add a bit of coat sheen, or blacken a black area to make it even blacker, a blind eye is turned. But it is frowned upon to improve pigment where pigment is faulty, to dye a coat a color that hides a color fault, or to do any other thing that makes a fault look like a virtue.

But I assure you, however bad it looks in the UK, it is 200% worse over here.