Comforting puppy when fearful or ignoring the puppy?

[Sparkle123]

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This is my take on your prospective trainer's behaviour plus your puppy's.

Sometimes all of us make mistakes, and this is a comment not a criticism, and a generalisation not a specific.

The thing to do about mistakes is to acknowledge what we have learned from them and move on.

This trainer sounds unsuitable. Yes you have paid the fee, yes she has this and that qualification in an unregulated area - the qualifications are unregulated too.

If you enjoy the challenge, by all means carry on, being prepared to question everything and research from where these ideas originate. Plenty of people start with one idea - even the people who started out with dominance theory! and later realise they were mistaken and have the moral fibre to say so. But the theories remain out there and still peddled by others. Personally, I would cut my financial losses and move on to a more aware and less didactic trainer. Money can be replaced by other money, but each puppy is unique.

I also suggest you have a look at Emma Judson's site. She is personally known to me, and a few others here, and one of the most skilled empathetic trainers working today.

All the best with whatever you decide, and we are all here for you.

Thank you. Oh yes, we all make mistakes. Bound to happen and I knew it would. I don't beat myself up for the mistakes and the ones bound to come still.
But the trainer, I think we have to try with her. And I have extremely low expectations. Because straight away I can see a problem in that our pup is frightened of other dogs. This is just something I believe he will overcome in time, with exposure, but she will probably say don't comfort him and I will tell her to get stuffed, amongst other reasons. So will let you know if we are escorted from the building!
But finding another trainer is hard. Possible, but hard. I have agoraphobia so that is a bit of an issue. This one is very close by. I cope well with the agoraphobia incidentally (had it for over 20 years).
Will look at Emma Judson's site, thank you.

 

[JoanneF]

Is there a Dogs Trust near you? Their classes get a great reputation.

And Emma (who is indeed a superstar) is at

Home | thecanineconsultants

www.thecanineconsultants.co.uk

 

[Sparkle123]

Thank you. If all else fails, I think she does do online support.
The nearest Dogs Trust is over two hours away unfortunately.
Will let you know how the class does go

 

[JoanneF]

How did it go @sparkle4ever ? Did you get thrown out of the class for insubordination?

 

[Sparkle123]

Barley was basically the star of the class! (well I think so ). He started off incredibly shy, hiding under a seat and as time went on, he was the life and soul and responded to recall, trotting around, laughing at the other dogs, trying to play with them (in a reserved way) and his confidence grew and grew...in just an hour! Before that, he was frightened of people and dogs. He sat and looked cute while the other pups barked. I didn't say too much, I just let him steal the show .
The trainer was okay. She's been doing it forever. Think she was a little wary of me from our emails but I decided not to say too much (unless she'd started with that fear stuff, and no reassurance) and tried to enjoy it but think I was more tired than Barley at the end of it!
Thank you for asking Joanne

 

[JudyN]

You must have been so proud of him

My tuppence-worth on comforting... To me, there is a difference between comforting and reassuring. If there's a storm, we don't want to crawl under the table with them, hold them tight and convey 'I know, it's awful, isn't it, you poor dear.' You want more to convey 'Actually, it's OK really, but hey, how about you sit on the sofa by me and I'll stroke you and you'll be fine.'

Also, sometimes it's helpful to ignore the trigger. On one occasion, my dog heard a rumble of thunder, lifted his head and looked worriedly at me. On seeing that I wasn't reacting at all, he settled back down again. It would be a different matter if he had become really anxious, of course (this was the one time when he would ask to get on the sofa - he wasn't generally allowed on a sofa when we were on it as he had sofa-sharing issues, but he felt safe on the sofa, and he knew we would let him on when he needed it).

 

[Sparkle123]

You must have been so proud of him

My tuppence-worth on comforting... To me, there is a difference between comforting and reassuring. If there's a storm, we don't want to crawl under the table with them, hold them tight and convey 'I know, it's awful, isn't it, you poor dear.' You want more to convey 'Actually, it's OK really, but hey, how about you sit on the sofa by me and I'll stroke you and you'll be fine.'

Also, sometimes it's helpful to ignore the trigger. On one occasion, my dog heard a rumble of thunder, lifted his head and looked worriedly at me. On seeing that I wasn't reacting at all, he settled back down again. It would be a different matter if he had become really anxious, of course (this was the one time when he would ask to get on the sofa - he wasn't generally allowed on a sofa when we were on it as he had sofa-sharing issues, but he felt safe on the sofa, and he knew we would let him on when he needed it).

Yes, I totally agree. It is the context of the situation. But I don't think the trainer is a (ahem) complex thinking person...more generalisations. Just ignore frightened pup (in most part), the end. Lol.

 

[JessH]

I have been informed that when your puppy shows fear during say the socialisation process, getting familiar and used to new sights and sounds, people, other dogs, etc, that if you comfort him, that is the wrong thing to do and will show him/reinforce he has something to fear. Instead it is suggested that you basically ignore the fear he displays and don't comfort him at all.
Does that sound right to you? I am curious as I admit to always comforting.

Having read through your worry and all the answers, I will give you my own recent and past experiences in case it helps? I have a 16 week old puppy, who arrived at 9 weeks. With previous dogs of my own (pre partner) I have always gone for the "ignore the scary object", and carry on as if it wasn't anything to worry about, while my partner has always comforted his previous dogs. We both use our own ways with this joint puppy, if out individually (very smart puppy gets the difference). I can now walk her along our main road, into town, past lorries, buses, motor bikes and other noisy vehicles, with barely a twitch from pup as she trots alongside. My partner struggles to get her a few hundred yards along our main road, and comes back telling me she's terrified. He's a comforter. He tells me she just wants to run back to the car if they're on the Common, while if I, or we, go together, she wants to sniff, listen and run about all over the place. His previous dogs were scared of thunderstorms and fireworks, mine not. When a particularly enormous firework went off close by my house (pre partner), my last dog, flat out asleep on the floor, reared her head up at the far too loud bang, and looked at me. I studiously ignored her, and continued to watch tv, she watched me for a little while, then flopped back down and went back to sleep. She was reassured that I knew it was safe, and that meant she was safe. I had to take her to London once, she'd never been on a train (8yrs old) or a tube, or a bus come to that, as I have a car. (This pup has already been on a bus with me, as OH said she was scared of them, when one went past him and her. She's now fine with buses). When both the train and tube train pulled in noisily with my previous dog, she pulled back one step, I just marched forward, and she followed me on and lay down as if she'd been doing it for years. I had to carry her down the escalator, all 45lbs of her, and I faced upwards, so if she struggled and I dropped her (I'm 8.5 stone) she'd fall onto the stairs. She could see over my shoulder, and sensibly decided it was a good idea not to move, so we landed intact at the bottom. I'm not saying any one approach is right, but me ignoring scary things has always worked for me and my dogs, while my comforting partner has always had issues with his dogs. The one instance that is an exception, due to puppy being attacked by another dog recently, when she was rightly terrified, but luckily not injured as the owners reacted swiftly, is that if another dog barks or growls nearby, she will ask to be picked up, and I do, partly because I don't actually know if the barking dog is safe either? I don't say anything though, I just get her out of the way for a while until she relaxes again, then I put her back down and we carry on. Hope this is useful for you?

 

[Sparkle123]

Having read through your worry and all the answers, I will give you my own recent and past experiences in case it helps? I have a 16 week old puppy, who arrived at 9 weeks. With previous dogs of my own (pre partner) I have always gone for the "ignore the scary object", and carry on as if it wasn't anything to worry about, while my partner has always comforted his previous dogs. We both use our own ways with this joint puppy, if out individually (very smart puppy gets the difference). I can now walk her along our main road, into town, past lorries, buses, motor bikes and other noisy vehicles, with barely a twitch from pup as she trots alongside. My partner struggles to get her a few hundred yards along our main road, and comes back telling me she's terrified. He's a comforter. He tells me she just wants to run back to the car if they're on the Common, while if I, or we, go together, she wants to sniff, listen and run about all over the place. His previous dogs were scared of thunderstorms and fireworks, mine not. When a particularly enormous firework went off close by my house (pre partner), my last dog, flat out asleep on the floor, reared her head up at the far too loud bang, and looked at me. I studiously ignored her, and continued to watch tv, she watched me for a little while, then flopped back down and went back to sleep. She was reassured that I knew it was safe, and that meant she was safe. I had to take her to London once, she'd never been on a train (8yrs old) or a tube, or a bus come to that, as I have a car. (This pup has already been on a bus with me, as OH said she was scared of them, when one went past him and her. She's now fine with buses). When both the train and tube train pulled in noisily with my previous dog, she pulled back one step, I just marched forward, and she followed me on and lay down as if she'd been doing it for years. I had to carry her down the escalator, all 45lbs of her, and I faced upwards, so if she struggled and I dropped her (I'm 8.5 stone) she'd fall onto the stairs. She could see over my shoulder, and sensibly decided it was a good idea not to move, so we landed intact at the bottom. I'm not saying any one approach is right, but me ignoring scary things has always worked for me and my dogs, while my comforting partner has always had issues with his dogs. The one instance that is an exception, due to puppy being attacked by another dog recently, when she was rightly terrified, but luckily not injured as the owners reacted swiftly, is that if another dog barks or growls nearby, she will ask to be picked up, and I do, partly because I don't actually know if the barking dog is safe either? I don't say anything though, I just get her out of the way for a while until she relaxes again, then I put her back down and we carry on. Hope this is useful for you?

Hi Jess

Yes I think it just depends on the dog really. If you can just ignore the trigger and that works for the dog, that is great. But if you have a quivering little pup, then I think it is okay to reassure them too but not to the extent that they feel there is a threat, so it is more about building confidence and showing them there is no threat. I think it all depends on the dog's reaction from the very start to know how to respond. Im not sure how that has worked with your partner though! It seems as if she has associated fear when bein with him rather than objects or places. That must be difficult.

 

[JudyN]

How is it going, @sparkle4ever ? I'm hoping things are heading in the right direction.

 

[Sparkle123]

How is it going, @sparkle4ever ? I'm hoping things are heading in the right direction.

Hi Judy.

It is hard. And exhausting. I am getting by on about 5 hours sleep a night, and try and nap in the day but can't really.
Barley is good as gold with the OH. When OH is working in the office away, my day consists of trying to play with Barley, some training, toileting, feeding and then regularly saying 'No', 'Ouch' and 'Stop'. Don't get me wrong, of course there is the reward of good stuff...but sometimes you get so tired. And so hard to do anything else. Hard to work or to focus. It has all gone out the window.
Then when OH is home, he takes over some of the responsibility and suddenly Barley is much better.
And today when OH worked from home, able to put Barley upstairs with him in a pen where there is room for one there. And of course, good as gold and calm. OH could do his work. I had my own things to do, and needed to see my daughter, so no real rest.
Then Barley comes down to be with me so OH can go and do some shopping and before you know it, what little is left in the front room that he can get to is all over the floor, he is trying to rip the mats and carpet and then finally my skirt which now has two tears in it. So no choice but to crate him again. Till OH comes home in half an hour.
Earlier I just sat and cried and Barley came on my lap and gazed up at me.
I have a friend abroad who really understands because I suffer from anxiety disorders and trauma and cope with that every day and she knows what this is like. And with a dog too. She had one that she could do nothing with, he would even leap high barbed wire. She tried rehoming three times but no one would take him, so they stayed together for 15 years, and she misses him now that he has gone. But she really understands how hard this is. Suggested rehoming, to put my health first. But I just know I can't do that.
I just hope and pray it gets better. At some point relatively soon.
Thank you for asking

 

[Sparkle123]

It is odd too, the breeder was always in contact, even more so because he has the Mum and kept one pup, Barley's brother. But since we have had Barley, I haven't heard a peep from him in the two weeks we have had him.

 

[JoanneF]

Have you thought of keeping a diary? Sometimes, when we look back, we see that there have actually been little wins that we haven't noticed, and that's quite encouraging.

 

[Sparkle123]

Have you thought of keeping a diary? Sometimes, when we look back, we see that there have actually been little wins that we haven't noticed, and that's quite encouraging.

Diary, when do I have time for that? There are wins, they are just smallish ones. But they do exist.

 

[JudyN]

I can't remember how old he is, but you should be able to take him out for walks soon?

It's best to try to avoid saying 'no', 'stop' and 'ouch', as they mean nothing to him. Ideally, you'd give him a short timeout - even just 5 seconds - and put him there without saying anything. Then let him out, and the moment he puts his teeth on something he shouldn't, he goes back in again. But I think you said that there's no room for a pen, and you don't want his crate to feel like a punishment - have a think if there's anything you could do along these lines.

Another thing worth doing is to read back over all the advice we've given so far. It's easy to forget it, or not take it in, when you're already feeling overwhelmed by the pup - you might find something that didn't register, or didn't seem like it would work, the first time you read it, and now it makes sense.

 

[Sparkle123]

We have been able to take him out for walks from the start. But he can only walk for 15 minutes a day because he is just over three months.
I think if we did that idea of short timeout, it would be too much of in, out, in, out, in, out.
So I do put him in the crate for longer periods because there isn't another way.
But yes, will read over the advice in the other conversation. See if any of it might help now.
Thank you.

 

[JudyN]

The rule of 5 minutes per walk really only means, in effect, frogmarching your dog. If you, say, take him to the park and let him romp around (either on-or off lead), then sniff slowly round a grass verge, investigate an interesting stick, and sit for a bit watching the world go round, that's absolutely fine. After all, if he was at home for that time he'd still be tearing round the place and bouncing off the walls. And it'll be much more stimulating (and therefore tiring) than being in the same four walls.

Yes, short timeouts really do mean that he will be in, out, in, out, for half the evening at the start - it's exhausting, and I know you already feel exhausted. But it is the fastest way to make him realise that when he chews what he shouldn't, the fun stops. Leave him in timeout for a few minutes, and he'll have completely forgotten what he did before he got put there, so it doesn't help - particularly if he then gets stressed, as a dog, like humans, can't learn well when stressed. You do have to be really consistent, though. There's more about puppy biting here: Puppy biting

 

[Sparkle123]

I can certainly see that idea about being in the park but he can't be off the lead yet.
He doesn't get stressed in the crate now. I'm afraid it is the only way. To leave him in there so that we can either relax a bit, make something to eat, go to the toilet. It would literally be impossible to cope otherwise.

 

[JoanneF]

I can certainly see that idea about being in the park but he can't be off the lead yet.
He doesn't get stressed in the crate now. I'm afraid it is the only way. To leave him in there so that we can either relax a bit, make something to eat, go to the toilet. It would literally be impossible to cope otherwise.

Crates are lifesavers for times like that. I know I wouldn't be able to relax enough to pee if I thought I had a puppy approaching en electric cable with **that** look in his eyes!

 

[JudyN]

If he's not stressed in the crate, that's really good

Is it lack of recall that means he can't be off lead? He can still have a lot of fun sniffing the verges and watching the world go by, and watching dogs, people, traffic, whatever will help with his socialisation (and work his brain). You could maybe put him on a long lead (safer on a harness than a collar) and get some recall practice and other training in.