Conflicting puppy raising philosophies

[leashedForLife]

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For anyone who would like more info on “dominance theory” as it is inaccurately used re training or rearing nonhumans, or about puppy socialization, or the use of punishment (applied aversives), there are very good explanations here:

American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior Statements – Humane Society of Boulder Valley Training and Behavior Center

In short, they urge early & happy socialization for all pups, dismiss ‘dominance theory’ as outdated poppycock, & condemn the use of punishment, whether verbal or physical, as counterproductive.
The Am. Vet Soc of Animal Behaviorists is the professional organization which enrolls Board-certified vet behaviorists as members, in the USA.

- terry

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[pongo111]

It's a tough one!

My little one gets on the sofa and goes to sleep on me and I love it!!!!

There is definitely too much information around these days.

We've not started training yet - hopefully in november - not sure how that will go.

I hope it all works out for you.

 

[leashedForLife]

QUOTE, "pongo111:

...
There is definitely too much information around, these days.
...
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Sorry, Pongo, but I must politely disagree with that statement.

When I began dog-training with my 1st pup, I was all of 10-YO, the Internet was 30-years in the future, & no information on dog behavior, dogs’ abilities to learn, humane training that built on their strengths, or other useful pertinent info, was to be had, outside of a few widely-scattered individuals, one of whom MIGHT be nearby, if U were lucky, & who MIGHT be willing to mentor U.

The only “dog training” book in America at that time was written by a man named Koehler, about whom the less said, the better; his methods were based on his recent stint in the U-S Army training volunteered dogs from civilian families for WW-2, when green dogs moved thru training from intake to being “ready” & fully “trained” in 6 to 8 weeks time, when they were shipped to the war zone.
Describing it as brisk & brutal is far too kind. I will note for the record that the U-S Army had a sixty percent failure rate, which was only affordable b/c the dogs were donated by a patriotic public, & would be totally unacceptable to anyone who did not have an inexhaustible supply of incoming dogs behind the wash-outs.
Koehler brought this knowledge back, & spread it to a gullible, ignorant public.


I was incredibly lucky; I lived on a family farm, 2 miles away from the village where our mail was delivered, on a dirt road. Of all the astronomically unlikely chances, one of those very few humane trainers lived within 30-mins of our farm, & even more unlikely, ran group classes for the public.
As a 4-H kid, I wanted to train my puppy - & Mrs Arnold became my instructor and then my mentor for 3 years. What are the odds? ... jaw-dropping.


The problem with the info flow now is not that there is TOO MUCH, but that so much of it is 2nd-hand, 3rd-hand, or created from whole cloth.
A person who has owned & trained one puppy feels sufficiently confident in their knowledge to publish articles on their blog, or even a training booklet as an e-book, telling other ppl how to raise, socialize, habituate, & train their puppies, who of course are not behavioral & emotional clones of the author’s pup.
Ppl get unvetted info from uncredentialed sources, & then complain about the results!


Having lived thru a long period when good reliable info on dogs & their husbandry, social behaviors, mental abilities, & more, was locked away in research journals or in the minds of a few individual persons, I am delighted that good, sound, humane training info, based on science & reward, is available to anyone with a smart phone.

I am sorry that too many ppl get their info without considering their source’s credentials -
but that is the fault of the consumer. // There really is no excuse for buying the modern day equivalent of snake-oil sold by a charlatan. We are no longer gullible hicks, living in scattered small towns & villages, most of us on family farms & self-employed, at the mercy of traveling con-men with a line of plausible patter.

Good reliable sources with credentials are everywhere available; anyone can learn from Sue Ailsby for free , how to train any dog to a solid foundation of fluent behaviors that make her or him a delightful pet, welcome virtually anywhere, & moreover capable of going on to be anything s/he is capable of doing, physically.
Anyone can take a lecture from Jean Donaldson via UTube on dog body language & social norms... at zero cost but their time.

If someone chooses instead to pay The DogFather or the Dog Lissener or use the confrontational tactics of the Dawg Whissperer, that is, essentially, their own choice - & their own fault.


- terry

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[JudyN]

I'm not sure I agree, @leashedForLife The idea that 'dogs are pack animals, and we have to show them that they are boss' and all it entails has been ingrained for many years. Before I got a dog I thought all I had to do was make sure I always ate first, and everything else would fall into place. There are plenty of intelligent people who think they should always go through doors before their dogs, and should tell their dogs off if they do something they 'shouldn't', or dare to growl at them. And most people have easygoing dogs with whom this seems to work, so they don't fee the need to look further afield.

Too much information can be as useless as no information - I know when I hit problems it took a LOT of sifting through the internet, and trying different things with my dog, to decide whether I needed to be 100% positive or 'be more alpha'. And there's still times I wonder if he's just taking the proverbial...

 

[leashedForLife]

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Sorry, @JudyN , but the “Alpha wolf” & “pack theory” junk science that claimed wolves fought for supremacy in a bitter constant struggle for “dominance” over other pack-members, was disproven many years ago, by the very same researcher who had originally published it.

Dr L David Mech has repeatedly begged & even demanded that publishers take the old outdated books out of print, but they refuse to do it; having bought the rights, they own the material, & they fully intend to continue publishing it for as long as the public will buy it —- which apparently is forever, or at least, for the foreseeable future.

They continue to churn out fallacies at a profit - but the information that pack theory is wrong, & all the complex nonsense of eat 1st, enter or exit 1st, eating over the dog’s bowl before delivering a meal to them, & all the rest of that tripe, is hogwash, is also widely disseminated.

That ppl take scuttlebutt they learned from childhood as Gospel truth on into their adulthood is a choice; the facts are everywhere, in web articles, blogs, books, free handouts, magazines, newsprint, every imaginable format, hardcopy or electronic, plus in the voices of trainers, vets, groomers, & many other pet pros, from sitters to walkers... it’s very well distributed.

Of course, giving the likes of the Dawg Wrassler a bully pulpit on nationally broadcast cable TV was a severe blow, & he came along when reward based training was just going mainstream, blast his pearly caps. That put the Natl Geographic Society stamp of approval on a self-named “dog psychologist” who had no more credentials than any fortune teller with a Tarot deck.
But again, many highly regarded & unquestionably qualified persons immediately raised the alarm & condemned his methods roundly; that the “man on the street” found them emotionally appealing & immediately rewarding is unfortunate, but it’s not as if no one pointed out that this particular televised emperor of dog-knowledge was strutting about, scepter in hand, stark nude & spouting gibberish.

Popularity does not make a belief credible; as Twain once observed, a good lie can circle the globe before the truth has its boots on. Appealing fallacies, such as “spare the rod & spoil the child”, have been around for centuries. Sheer stubborn persistence does not make them any more true. That they persist at all is due to active resistance on the parts of individuals, organizations, & vested interests.

Children today no longer get sexual info primarily from their peers, in whispered furtive conversations, but I would hope that parents try to ensure that they get facts from reliable sources, not nonsense from ninnies. If they don’t want to have the dreaded convo about the birds & bees & STDs, they had dam*ed well better provide a vetted website, with accurate info from actual experts. // Similarly, pet owners have a plethora of sources to choose from, some credentialed, many not. It’s up to the consumer to winnow their sources, if they do not want to swallow a lot of chaff.

- terry

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[JudyN]

Sorry, @JudyN , but the “Alpha wolf” & “pack theory” junk science that claimed wolves fought for supremacy in a bitter constant struggle for “dominance” over other pack-members, was disproven many years ago, by the very same researcher who had originally published it.

Yes, I know, but there are all sorts of things that we think we know because we haven't had any need to look elsewhere - the way water spirals when it goes down the plughole, whether 'Ten items or less' is bad English (it isn't), whether you can split an infinitive (you can), and goodness knows how many medical remedies. Look at the faith people used to put into blood letting, or the effort taken to convince people that the earth was spherical. If you think you know how to train a dog because you watched Barbara Woodhouse as a kid, and you once shouted at your dog because she was eating your teddy and her 'leave' was perfect ever after, you're not going to be looking for something different unless you hit problems. And if you watched Victoria Stillwell before she came over from the dark(er) side or, heaven forbid, watched Cesar Milan, then you're going to believe yourself relatively well informed.

And then there's things like 'If your puppy bites, yelp loudly', which works for some, so they will suggest it to other people... but it doesn't work for others. It takes a long time to dig down through all the available info, and you're not going to do it if what you remember from your childhood, and what your mate said worked for her dog, seems to work.

 

[Biker John]

Must admit I still work off what my Dad told me must be 60 yrs ago. Dogs want to please so when it does something you like make sure it knows, if it does something you dont like ignore it.

 

[leashedForLife]

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Hey, if folks want to train their dog or housetrain their pup via the received wisdom from their parents, grandkin, or the guy 2 doors up the street with the goofy Lab, @JudyN , far be it from me to try to dissuade them - but THEY, & their dogs, will have to live with the results, warts & all.

There are still ppl who muleheadedly “housetrain” by rubbing the poor puppy’s nose in pee & poop, or simply smack the pup & throw them bodily outside whenever they catch the baby voiding indoors...
& others who attempt “socialization” by immersing their poor pup in noisy chaotic crowds, then wonder why the puppy isn’t enthused about meeting friendly strangers, but hangs back or even tries to hide.

Socialization is brief repeated HAPPY experiences, not random immersions among masses of strangers, just as habituation is brief repeated HAPPY exposures to nonliving stimuli: contexts, settings, sounds, sights, motions, scents, etc.
Plunking a puppy down amid a crowd of passing strangers for the 3 or 4 hour duration of a Bark in the Park event is exhausting & overwhelming; fallout is very likely. But puppy owners do it, anyway. :shrug:

If they just wanna do what their folks or their neighbors or the local grapevine suggests, they cannot blame the dogs for the results - whether good, bad, or mediocre.

If OTOH they are aware that we have actually learned more about dogs, their social patterns, their mental abilities, their learning potential, over the past 60 years than we had learned in the six centuries prior to this period, they really should look for more modern, force-free, reward-based methods.
Their current dog & any future dogs will all benefit from their new knowledge; reward training is equally applicable to children, spouses, cats, & others who are generally perceived to be “difficult to train”.

- terry

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[leashedForLife]

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@Biker John , for 60 years ago, I think yer dad was a very progressive trainer.

I hope U don’t mind my asking, but I have noticed the two often are found together -
Was he as forward-looking in his child rearing, as in his dog rearing practices?

My own sire, BTW, was a strong advocate of the “spare the rod, spoil the child” policy, & died unmourned by his four adult children; we were simply relieved he was finally gone.

He was a heavy-handed, quick tempered disciplinarian, in short, a bully in his own home, & was just as impatient, demanding, & unforgiving with nonhuman animals, as he was with human animals, including his nearest-&-supposedly-dearest blood relations.

- terry

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[Shanti Lall]

Thanks for the link to the AVSA link, @leashedforlife

This discussion is all very interesting, and very germane to the problems we're having - our (21 week old) puppy's growling and 'conflict aggression' is getting worse.

Dog expert friends and trainers have told us that same stuff, that we shouldn't let her go through a door before us, that we should control everything, be fierce, etc. We've been trying to schedule a 1:2:1 session with a behaviourist but she may well take this line.

The only thing we've actually had success with is building trust around the food bowl by throwing in extra titbits, and using treats to get her off the sofa or to trade for objects she's 'stolen'. Then again, tipping the sofa also works, if we're brave enough to face up to her when she's curling her lip and growling. Some people have advised that we shouldn't pay attention to her or that she should have to earn our attention, but this doesn't feel right. And the one time I was 'fierce' (because I lost my temper), she was cowed at the time but still growled at me again later the same day.

New aggressive behaviours keep cropping up, though. E.g. after a lovely afternoon on the heath, when we got home, she sat in the hall and 'guarded' my husband's bag (or the hall itself - we're not sure which) if we went past. She also growls at times if we try to put on her lead or take it off! I gave her a new blanket, and she growled and snapped at me when I touched it to arrange it on her bed.

Our vet recommends that we see a behaviourist - she says the problems won't go away. I think we'll have to try and find one who doesn't espouse dominance theory. What positive things could/should we be doing to address our puppy's aggression in the meantime?

 

[Shanti Lall]

It's a tough one!

My little one gets on the sofa and goes to sleep on me and I love it!!!!

There is definitely too much information around these days.

We've not started training yet - hopefully in november - not sure how that will go.

I hope it all works out for you.

We like it too, but we've been told she shouldn't climb or jump on anything higher than her elbows. Plus she started to 'resource guard' the sofa, not the mention try to dig it up!

 

[JudyN]

I need to post and run, but has she had a full vet check to look for any physical cause? This should include bloods, including a thyroid test.

Also, if you were happy to say what area you live in, we might be able to find a good, up-to-date trainer/behaviourist. The ones you've seen so far are very out of date.

 

[merlina]

There is a single underlying cause to a great deal of dog aggression that is easy to identify and treat- it's fear. Anxious dogs react aggressively. They fear being hurt or killed. They often try to establish a safe space and guard it. Resource guarding may well have it's origins in this type of fear also. There is really no percentage for a dog to get into a fight so when it shows its teeth, growls or bites it is misreading the signs and feels threatened. Please don't think I'm criticising you or your family. I grew up in a dog-loving household where children 'cuddled' dogs or joined them in their beds. I was found asleep in a basket with our puppy I believe. We had noisy games and the dogs became frantic. But the dogs will have hated it. Look up all the signals for dog aggression on Google- growling, whites of eyes etc. Learn to speak dog. Ignore your dog as much as you can in the house - don't look, don't speak to, don't pat I tell visitors (we have a dog I took from Death Row!) Constant attention can fray a dog's nerves. Forget about who's the boss and work toward a calm, peaceful environment for your dog. They really do want a quiet life.

 

[JudyN]

Tipping her off the sofa will make her tense whenever you approach it when she's on it, and tension leads to defensiveness leads to aggression. If she's getting off for treats then it's a non-problem. If she gets growly when you go near the sofa and she's on it, then (when you don't need her to get off) walk up to a distance at which she's comfortable, throw her a treat, and walk away. Build up to being able to give her a treat while she's on the sofa, but don't push it if she's not happy.

When she growled when you rearraged her blanket, was she on it at the time? Many dogs dislike being approached when they're on their bed, so just leave her be - and maybe do the 'walk up, throw a treat, walk away' thing so she's not worried about your approach.

Be careful with your body language when putting her lead on and taking it off - could it be that you're looming over her, or holding onto her collar when putting it on?

It's really hard when they're so young because just when you think you're getting a handle on some of the behaviour, a new one pops up as they develop. Well done for sticking with her.

 

[Shanti Lall]

Hi Judy,

Yes, she's been vet checked. I don't think it included a thyroid test, though.

My main source of (informal) advice is a friend who's had many dogs, and whose current dog is perfectly behaved and has been to Crufts. She's also recommended the training school we go to, Alpha Dogs in Finsbury Park, North London (where we live) and the behaviourist we've contacted, Penaran Higgs.

Penaran does reward-based training as do Alpha Dogs, but when we had a 1:2:1 training sessions with one of the Alpha Dogs people she did say all that stuff about us not letting our puppy go through a doorway before us, or even enter a room without permission from us. She said that since our puppy is a resource guarder (which she put down to her being one of a litter of ten, all fed from one food bowl), we should 'control everything'.

 

[leashedForLife]

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Sorry, but the very name of the business is a red flag: Alpha Dogs? — sheesh.


Learn about marker training AKA clicker training - teach the behaviors U want, in the contexts where U want them, & reward compliance heartily.

If the sofa is a trigger, install a tether in the lounge so that she cannot possibly get on it, & put her on the tether every time, when she is in that room with U. // When U are not in that room, close the door - no door? ... put up a tall gate, or sections of ex-pen as a lightweight movable barrier; secure the ex-pen sections to the door frame or the wall, on either side.
Drop-pin ex-pen sections are especially handy, as any section can be opened by lifting the pin out, there is no dedicated “gate”.

The UTube videos from KikoPup AKA Emily Larlham are all safe, clear, & reliable - she will never suggest any confrontational tactics, threatening actions, or punishing tools / methods.

If U would like, @Shanti Lall , send me a PM & I can send a copy of a beginner’s guide to clicker training.
IIRC, there are 7 lessons total, each on a single page; it includes homework.

- terry

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[JudyN]

Sorry, but the very name of the business is a red flag: Alpha Dogs? — sheesh.

My thoughts entirely - their website doesn't seem to say anything about their training methods either. Penaran Higgs, however, looks like a much better bet - the Puppy School ethos seems to be very positive.

There's nothing wrong with a few house rules, such as asking for a sit (but not a long wait - that's just stressful) or for the dog to let you go through a door first, and it's good to get the dog into the habit of doing what you ask, but it's not about status. A good leader doesn't have to impose their will - others follow (metaphorically) a good leader because they accept their leadership as a good thing and in their own interests. Sofas aren't about status - they are about 'I was here first, I'm really comfy, it smells of you which I like and no thanks, I really don't want to move'.

And a bit of bribery doesn't do any harm either. You don't have to WIN battles, you just have to avoid them happening.

 

[Shanti Lall]

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Sorry, but the very name of the business is a red flag: Alpha Dogs? — sheesh.


Learn about marker training AKA clicker training - teach the behaviors U want, in the contexts where U want them, & reward compliance heartily.

If the sofa is a trigger, install a tether in the lounge so that she cannot possibly get on it, & put her on the tether every time, when she is in that room with U. // When U are not in that room, close the door - no door? ... put up a tall gate, or sections of ex-pen as a lightweight movable barrier; secure the ex-pen sections to the door frame or the wall, on either side.
Drop-pin ex-pen sections are especially handy, as any section can be opened by lifting the pin out, there is no dedicated “gate”.

The UTube videos from KikoPup AKA Emily Larlham are all safe, clear, & reliable - she will never suggest any confrontational tactics, threatening actions, or punishing tools / methods.

If U would like, @Shanti Lall , send me a PM & I can send a copy of a beginner’s guide to clicker training.
IIRC, there are 7 lessons total, each on a single page; it includes homework.

- terry

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Thanks, Terry. I have watched the KikoPup videos and we do use these methods. We don't use punishments, nor do Alpha Dogs (despite their name) advocate use of punishment; it's all reward-based positive reinforcement. We feed 50% of her daily food by hand, as training treats. She knows 'come', 'sit', 'down', 'stand', 'stay', 'wait', 'collar', 'settle', 'leave it', 'fetch', 'go find it'. She's an angel outside the house (the only 'misbehaviour' is not coming when called if she's found food). She's well socialised and friendly to everyone.

We are thinking about getting a pen. We can't keep her on a tether/lead in the living room: (1) it's the main room where she, and we, spend most time, and (2) we can't use a lead in the house because she obsesses with it. The last time we tied her to something (so she couldn't keep jumping up at the kitchen table while we were eating) she cried, but then growled and snapped when we tried to get near her to untie it. I ended up using a broom from a distance to untie the knot!

We've done everything positive trainers advocate. But we (especially my husband - see my original post) haven't been that strict, e.g. about the sofa, 'stealing' objects, jumping up at us to greet us, using a long lead in the park. And - according to some sources - we've maybe paid her too much attention. She's never been left alone. She's a very active breed and different sources and advisers have suggested she's bored/under-exercised/overtired. It's difficult to get this right but we do try to stick roughly to exercise limits while giving her mental stimulation via training, games and visits to new places.

 

[leashedForLife]

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It’s not about being strict or denying the dog things/ activities, it’s really just consistent patterns of what U want, & which behaviors are rewarding to the dog.

SELF-rewarding behaviors are extremely difficult to eradicate- they would include such classics as barking, jumping up, & bolting out the door or gate. Every time the dog does them, they are intrinsically rewarding - many breeds love the sound of their own voices, such as Beagles, Poms, Chis, most of the classic terrierrrists, GSDs, etc.

Getting onto the sofa is unfortunately one of those self-rewarding actions - it’s a nice comfy surface to sprawl on, supportive & out of drafts. :—/ OF COURSE, the dog will want to lie on it, who wouldn’t?

Hence managing the dog’s access to the sofa, & making it impossible for the dog to get up unless they are specifically invited (which should only happen after s/he has a solid up / off, done on cue, with at least 80% compliance on the 1st cue), is really the only way to prevent the dog acquiring the sofa habit.
If hubby wants to allow the dog onto the sofa unasked at random times, or ETA: if either of U permit access at will when U are not home, I am afraid this will become a serious long-running argument with the dog.
Dogs don’t understand inconsistencies & need patterns, to live with us humans successfully.

It is broken patterns that alert a dog to an intruder: dogs know, having seen this many times, that nonfamily persons come to the door, & knock or ring to be admitted. They are greeted by a resident, & then may or may not be admitted (U don’t invite the postie or the FedEx driver in; U do invite friends, family, neighbors).
Someone who enters the house by cutting a hole in the sliding glass door breaks the pattern, & is not a welcome guest. Simples.

Dogs spend their lives observing us - as a result, they are excellent trainers of humans.

- terry

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[JudyN]

If hubby wants to allow the dog onto the sofa unasked at random times, or permit access at will when U are not home, I am afraid this will become a serious long-running argument with the dog.

But it's only a problem if you can't get your dog off when you want her to get off. And if that involves bribes and subterfuge untill you can train a good off, that's fine. My dog has access to the sofas at any time (as long as we're not on them) and would turn aggressive if he felt he was being ordered off, and certainly if we moved him physically. But he pops off when asked nicely and if he's so comfy he's disinclined to get off, then the sound of the fridge door usually does it.