"Do not pet/touch/get close" being ignored.

[Losu]

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Hi there.
We have a wonderful rescue dog we adopted a few weeks ago. He's lovely natured but a bit unsure around strangers. He isn't aggressive, he just reacts by displaying uncomfortable body language if approached. One sudden approach resulted in a growl. We've been desensitizing with controlled conditioning and had no real issues because people have respected when I've said not to pet him up and he is getting much better. He is now accepting petting from regular people we meet but on his terms, he has to go to them. Today was not good.

We took the bus into town which we've been doing to get him used to it. As I don't drive, this is how we travel to the vet, groomers etc. He's fine as long as he feels safe. Safe for him is sitting between my legs with his back against my seat. A child (age 6. I know her from using the bus but not well) comes on and proceeds to get right in the dog's space. I said to her that he's quite a scared doggy and please don't pet him. Blatantly ignored me. Mother did nothing. Her Granny did tell her but the child ignored her and neither mother or granny made any attempt to move the child. My dog couldn't move. He was turning his head away, getting wide eyed, lip licking. I couldn't move cos granny was sat in the only other area a dog is allowed. Even my preschooler scolded the child! The mother made comments about the dog yawning and being tired and I responded no, that's how dogs relieve stress, he's anxious which is also why he's turning away.

Later on we're in town. Dog is doing great. The SAME child comes bounding up at great speed and sticks her face right in my dog's face. My husband who I'd met in town told the child not to put her face to his as I moved the dog away. Mother and Granny standing about 8 feet away and again doing naff all. I've by now moved and dog sits to do his business. Child circles round and proceeds to stick her face in the dog's face AGAIN. Mother just stood and watched as my husband told the child a bit more sternly for a second time not to do that. Only then did the Granny say "come on" but no attempt to move to get the kid who continued to ignore the instructions. Husband also got the stare of death from them.

What am I supposed to do with that? As I said, he's not aggressive but it can't be a kick in the backside away when someone is in his face like that suddenly. I had control of my dog but nobody was willing to control this child.

 

[Josie]

It’s actually very surprising how many parents allow this to happen or aren’t even paying attention to what their child is doing.

I had a similar situation the other day. We were in a dog friendly bar/restaurant in our town and a little girl toddled up to stroke Dennis - like yours he’s not aggressive but he doesn’t particular appreciate small children getting so close to him. I let her pat him and then she went away but she kept coming back and the parents weren’t even acknowledging it. In the end I said firmly ‘that’s enough now’ and the dad finally called the child away!

have you thought about putting a nervous lead/coat on him?
I do think you have to be very firm because who should get the blame if your boy decided he couldn’t take anymore?

 

[JoanneF]

I think, as your dog's advocate, you need to be very firm - blunt, rude if necessary. To the child and the mother.

 

[Losu]

It's very surprising! I have three kids, two teenagers and a four year old. They've always been taught not to touch a dog without asking.

Yes, I've ordered a custom hi viz vest and lead slip after yesterday. The lead cover says 'do not pet' and the vest says 'I need space', it also has a no touching symbol which should help with those who can't read. However I'm not sure how helpful it will be when a child totally ignores it and a parent isn't proactive in stopping it. It will at the very least lessen the chance of it happening though.

It's frustrating when we work in training our dogs and keep them under control when things like this happen.

 

[Losu]

Yes Joanne I think I'll have to be.

 

[DixD]

You’re using public transport and public streets, in situations you can’t control. The clue is in the word “public”. And, for a dog as insecure as yours at the moment, that’s a very big ask. It may have been better for you and the dog to have chosen a rescue more suitable to your personal transport circumstances, and the dog may have found an environment more suitable to his. You can’t expect everyone to change their normal routine to suit your dog’s insecurity. It could have been a raucous drunk, or a child with behavupiiurL issues, even an older person, who had lost their footing, and fallen towards him. I speak as someone, who had a neurotic dog, who barked at bikes and moving children nonstop. I went out my way to stop a distance away, explain to the people, and walk him past. The responsibility was on me, not them, and basically it worked. The dog eventually saw less of a threat. There was no way I would have taken him on public transport, even when he had improved greatly. It would have been very unfair on him. It woukd also have put us at risk of being charged under The Dangerous Dogs Act in the UK, if someone saw his reaction as a threat, and put him at risk. Your dog doesn’t need to bite someone, just be seen as a threat. I would have used a taxi, or relied on friends for a lift, if vet visits needed, and if I’d had no car. A little boy, on his way home from school, came charging up to the dog in the avatar once, completely out the blue, threw his arms around him, and gave him a huge hug. Luckily, he is one cool hound, and took it, as his due, with great grace and friendliness. But, with children that’s what happens on public streets. And presumably, it’s why rescues are cautious of rehoming dogs to families with young childre; it can be a difficult mix.

 

[Finsky]

Oh, this is one of my 'pet hate' subjects that I have found myself ranting time and time again...gets my neck hairs up for sure!
I have come across this kind of behaviour from our fellow humans as well, MANY times. And as I see it, parents are not teaching their children anymore to ask the dog owners if they can pet the dog.
When I was a kid, everybody knew this and everybody's mum or dad would repeat this mantra even if we kids knew and remembered it. There was more of mutual understanding going on.
I too have had unruly kids coming to my dog without any warning...occasionally from behind the dog, just laying their hands on. Even with most well behaved dogs that is quite undertaking to remind calm. Given the same situation, I too would jump and yelp ..and finish it off with mighty growl too. And yes...parents never say a thing, nor they even realize that there was anything wrong being done by their kids or by themselves.
When ever I see this sort of situation approaching, even if would trust my dog(s) behave, one can never be 100% sure...I will be very blunt and stop it happening if possible and then explaining for the adults AND the kids why. They can take or leave it but they do get educated!
When some are approaching us in a nice manner, I also give a praise for where it is due and I then explain why as well...it is good for everybody to see both sides of the 'coin'. And maybe they will mention it to somebody else and the word is passed on...you just never know what good it might do and save another dog from potentially dangerous situation. (yes...I'm more concern about the dogs than unruly kids....)
I've only ever had one dog that was bit 'iffy' with strangers and with sudden petting approaches...so in the end we had to take the hard decision and keep her away from busy public spaces...it just wasn't worth of the risk.
But I can understand this is not possibility for everybody, and this is where muzzles will be useful. On its own it is very visual warning sending alarms bells ringing with people and they are less likely to approach the dog...as well as having a harness with appropriate message on it.."don't pet..I don't like you" is something I would be quite prepared to have on mine if necessary Or even something nastier if it gets the 'job' done...
It ain't ideal world around there..and as mentioned, there is many reasons why close contacts may happen and why we might have to take the dog where they are not most comfortable, so we just have to make sure the dog and our fellow people are as safe as possible.

 

[DixD]

You have to be careful with the “warning signs on dogs” approach, as apparently it can be interpreted as you knew your dog was unreliabl and liable to react, if you and your dog got involved in a court case.

At this rate, we’ll be putting signs on children, saying “Due to my age, my actions are unpredictable”.

 

[Finsky]

You have to be careful with the “warning signs on dogs” approach, as apparently it can be interpreted as you knew your dog was unreliabl and liable to react, if you and your dog got involved in a court case.
At this rate, we’ll be putting signs on children, saying “Due to my age, my actions are unpredictable”.

ARRRRGH...but of course....why didn't I think of that...'banging the head on the brick wall moment'.
Everything seem to be like a chess game..one has to be 10 steps ahead and think of all possibilities..in case somebody wants to sue you.. 'sigh'.
Hmm...maybe the owner needs carrying a muzzle around his/her neck too,like a necklace and putting sign on the dog..."my owner is the nasty one..touch me and I won't be responsible for her/his actions.." ..or..
T-shirt with logo on front and back....Nasty bitch transporting her 'poodle'..keep off! ...or...
wearing Dr. Marten's, gluing one's hair up and putting few safety pins on one's ripped clothes style?...or...
Not having a wash for a week before venturing out?
Are anybody wary or anything anymore?

 

[JudyN]

I've long thought that children should be taught dog etiquette in school - with details to take home to show their parents.

On a positive note, yesterday we passed a lad of 10ish who said to OH, 'Could I stroke your dog please, sir?' I didn't know children still called adults 'sir'!

 

[Finsky]

I've long thought that children should be taught dog etiquette in school - with details to take home to show their parents.

On a positive note, yesterday we passed a lad of 10ish who said to OH, 'Could I stroke your dog please, sir?' I didn't know children still called adults 'sir'!

Absolutely...there is so many 'common sense' things that should be explained and taught..this being one of them.
How wonderful to meet such a lad...you were spoiled there!

 

[DixD]

In my childhood, which was ages ago, if a dog nipped you, you’d be told “You shouldn’t have touched it then.” Like if neighbours gave you a real telling off, or you got belted at school “You must have deserved it, then.” None of this dog etiquette stuff explained. Maybe they just bred ‘em tough, where I came from...

 

[DixD]

@Finsky. Yes, I’m not sure the manufacturers making money from this equipment make you aware there is the potential for this happening. Of course, if you don’t, then no doubt it can be made out you gave no warning of your dog’s temperament and unreliability. It’s a suing nightmare out there.

 

[Flobo]

When my daughter was in reception I offered to bring Jake in for an informal 'how to behave around dogs' lesson but the school couldn't/wouldn't take me up on it because of allergies, health n safety issues, fears, consent forms etc.. which is a huge shame as it could be incredibly beneficial. On a positive note there were 4 young children approaching me and an elderly pair of dogs I look after, one is sociable the other will go for you if approached, to my delight they all slowed down, two came over and asked if they could stroke them, I said yes to petting one but warned them the cute silver one was really grumpy and not to touch, and they were really gentle and incredibly respectful and as their two friends caught up the first girl straight away told them who they could touch and which dog to avoid.. they must all have only been around 4 or 5 years old and I complimented them on being so good around the dogs,( and to the 2 mums with them) it was really lovely.. as they all skipped away one girl turned back to me and asked if I would stroke the grumpy one now as he had missed out on the fuss!! So cute.. if only all kids were being brought up like that eh!

 

[DixD]

if only kids were all the same, but, like dogs, they’re all different. And some of them are quite mean! Bound to be some kids who would enjoy egging others on to stroke the grumpy one, or not telling others it was grumpy - “Go on, it won’t hurt you...”. Little horrors, some of them.

 

[Losu]

On the contrary, warning signs can assist a great deal with culpability claims. It's no different no a high voltage sign on an electrical box. If an idiot then decides to enter the box it's on him and he can't claim negligence. Same with 'contents hot' signs on coffee cups and 'caution floor wet' when a floor has recently been mopped. Warning signs move a certain amount of responsibility on to the general public (providing they are clear, readable and well placed; which is why I've opted to include a do not touch symbol in addition to wording)

But of course with a dog the sign isn't enough in itself, if for example a dog was off leash thus not under the owners control. They have to be used in conjunction with controlling the animal.

A leashed animal, kept close to it's owner wearing a 'warning do not pet' sign and someone chooses to ignore this along with verbal warnings from the owner then they'd be VERY hard pushed to secure a claim against the owner. Lots of variables of course such as if the dog has bitten previously it should be muzzled but again there's a standard of proof to be met and a burden of proof to be discharged.

 

[DixD]

I am sure if a child got into a high voltage area, the company would be in a lot of trouble, so you’re comparing apples and pears there. A child is not an idiot, it’s a little human being, who has not developed emotional or intellectual maturity, or full impulse control. I watched a mother and child today, as I was taking one of my dogs to the vets. I paid specific attention because of this topic, The child was very worked up about something, and very upset. My husband was walking past them with the hound, as I went into the vets, and I felt the risk was very low. I asked him later how Hugo reacted, and he said “Not at all”. With the other dog I discussed earlier, it would have been stressful for him, and I would have asked my husband not to expose him to it. The mum and child had a right to be there. If I didn’t feel my dog was up to it, then it’s my responsibility not to expose him to it.

Good luck to anyone with a “warning sign” on a dog, at the mercies of a good lawyer. “You knew your dog was unreliable. In fact, you’ve got a sign indicating so, yet you took him/her to a place there was liable to be children”. That’ll run...

 

[Losu]

What do I know. I only spent six years studying law to gain my LLB.

 

[DixD]

What you’ll know then is that things don’t always turn out as you expected. One set of lawyers win, the other set lose. That’s life.

Do you know if the child had behavioural issues such as ADHD, or had autism, or mental health issues. My nephew has autism, and life can be exhausting for his mother. I’m sure sometimes she comes across like she didn’t care, but it is not like tgat at all. Things sometimes don’t always look quite like they are, and that’s when the variables come in.

you will also know, having studied as a lawyer, you could be on shaky ground calling someone’s child an idiot.

 

[JudyN]

Surely if the parent sees a dog and the dog owner asks for the dog to be given space, then regardless of whether the child has ADHD, etc., or is just plain naughty, it's the parent's responsibility to control the child, whether it's a dog or an open window on the top deck?

And I think you should no more pet someone else's dog if asked not to than you should pet someone else's child. It's simple bad manners. Having said that, when people can't be relied on to behave as they should/we like, sometimes we simply have to do what is necessary to keep our dogs safe, which in this case might involve avoiding buses.