Electric Shock Collars

[~Helen~]

Join our free community today.

Connect with other like-minded dog lovers!

Login or Register

Just felt that I had to say that I feel whippets and other sight hounds live for running so I feel it is crueler to keep your sight hound on the lead because it runs off than to give it a couple of shocks so that it can be free to run for the rest of its life.
My Esme was a real devil for running off, nothing scared her and nothing would make her listen to me.  Until one day she ran off and got lost for 3 hours.  This really terrified her and she never lets me out of her sight now, in fact she's become rather clingy.

I expect she found this experience far more terrifying than she would have found a couple of shocks from a collar.  She panted and cried and panicked for hours after, and I suspect if you ask anyone who has used a shock collar correctly you will find that they didn't behave like that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

My feelings entirely. If you have a sighthound that goes off after deer, and you've tried everything that training and re-training can offer, then a collar like this may be the only way forward. I've certainly considered it for Josie. Having had to deal with the aftermath of the horrific injuries she comes back with, torn to pieces on barbed wire, I think a couple of small shocks used responsibly and properly is far better option. I let her off the lead very sparingly, but I know that one day I might lose her under a car, train, or exsanguinated in a wood somewhere, and if I thought I could prevent that by using a collar like this on a very short-term basis, then I'd probably do it

 

[rach125]

Thanks everyone. im overwelmed by the response! There are a couple of other things that this topic has brought up and i jst want to comment on a couple. When i was about 12 year old me and my family plus my aunty, uncle and cousins who were two and four at the time, took benji up to a local dam that has a public foot path right round it. My little sister who was 6 opened the car door when we got there and benji managed to jump out of the car. There were no sheep anywhere around and benji was just next to the car sniffing. We put him on the lead then began our walk in 5 mins straight 3 farmers one on a quad and two in a pick up came flying towards us, fing and blinding aiming a shot gun at benji. As u wud expect we were all petrified eventually my uncle being a people person he managed to calm the farmer down and explain that he had not been chasing sheep nor would we have allowed him off the lead near them. He was still mad but put the gun away. That episode has remained with me til now!

Also one of you brought up the issue of sighthounds living to run. which i agree with, however currently at the rescue we have a whippy x whos legs keep giving way from under her she can only run 100yards before collapsing and often she screams in pain when she does. Also wen she gets excited this happens. She has bin on meticam and other pills for months now with no effect and i feel that its maybe time she was pts but the manager feels she should be kept like this. wat does ppl think? (this is the dog who was going to be joining us and benji but she bit benji if anyone remembers)

 

[IanGerman]

Just to re-itterate the pain or "damage" by use of a command collar.

I used it on myself at full strength - it made me yelp! It did NOT however cause any burning, stabbing, searing or any other type of physical injury. It is a shock - plain and simple.

Of course you could probably achieve the same effect (anti-nobbling training) by running behind the dog at 30mph with a blown up paper bag, ready to pop it just as she/he turns. My own speed however is about a tenth of that

I believe that used responsibly these are fine, you can't legislate for idiots and morons unfotunately - or rather you can and the responsible people pay the price.

 

[Mattie]

Just felt that I had to say that I feel whippets and other sight hounds live for running so I feel it is crueler to keep your sight hound on the lead because it runs off than to give it a couple of shocks so that it can be free to run for the rest of its life.

I took on a Whippet/Lab who had learnt just how much fun it was to hunt and chase sheep, she could pull a ewe down very easily. She hadn't had any training before we got her and her idea of a recall was to chase the nearest wild animal. She was the perfect killing machine.

It took time and patience but I did get her to have a good recall even when she had started a chase she would recall imediately and I didn't use an electric collar. What I did do was never call her back when I knew she wouldn't come, to continue calling a dog in this situation teach's them that recall is just when they want to and not to obey every time.

Some of the dogs I have at present are an ex racing Greyhound, JRT/Whippet who the above dog taught to hunt successfully and a Greyhound/Lab who is 10 months old. All have a very good recall and will recall of a chase. All were trained by me not calling them when I knew they wouldn't come and I do use training leads often adding several together to lengthen them.

I have also seen a beautiful GSD who had his life destroyed because of the misuse of one of these collars. He became a nervous wreck and was given to the Army, he put a senior trainer in hospital so was pts.

For training a dog even with someone who is experienced with these collars the are a quick fix, and will teach a dog quickly but the majority of dog owners/handlers don't have the timing to use these. Even when used at a lower level if the timing is wrong the dog can iterprate the collar to something else, it has happened many times. Even experienced trainers sometimes train a dog to something that they didn't intend to do at times.

Before using one of these collars, a dog has to become used to wearing one many dogs become collar sensitive, they know when the collar is on and will behave, once the collar is off, they go back to being the way they were so they have to always wear them.

Yes, even flat collars can do terrible damage if misused, but they take a lot more misuse than an e collar does to do the damage, choke chains is another, in the right hands they work but most people are not the right hands and they do a lot of damage.

I don't walk my dogs on anything round the neck, my JRT/Whippet has neck damage because of a choke chain so I always walk my dogs in a harness, I find them much safer and the dogs are more comfortable, they also give me more control. :cheers:

 

[FeeFee]

Just purely out of curiosity, I wonder how these collars are used to train a dog to recall? I'm pretty sure if one of my dogs was running away from me and received a shock they would probably bolt off into the distance, not return to me.

I know there are different types of collars around, but I was (after reading this thread) looking at a few of the websites, and one of them compared their collar to 'receiving a mild shock from an electric fence'. I hope that isn't a true comparison, as a couple of times my dogs have accidentally touched electric fences and they have screamed the place down - no way I'd do that to them on purpose for any reason.

My lurcher still won't go into the field where he got 'stung' by a fence, and that was two years ago and the fence isn't there any more. His experience obviously only taught him that place was dangerous - not that ignoring me calling and charging ahead into the field was a daft thing to do!

 

[wild whippies]

Just purely out of curiosity, I wonder how these collars are used to train a dog to recall?  I'm pretty sure if one of my dogs was running away from me and received a shock they would probably bolt off into the distance, not return to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I've been told the very thing you've just mentioned actually happened to someone who tried using an electric collar on their dog, as I didn't witness the event I cannot comment on the owners training skills but it does seem that this is a possibility.

 

[gutsey]

no matter what we say there will always be people for/against these collars,but i know that if my partner hadnt used one on our dog,he would either ended up shot by the farmer as he would run off across several fields then chase sheep,or chase bunnies/deer etc into the woods.He was stock broken as a pup and would not go near them when he was out lamping/ferreting etc.he was also taken to puppy classes,then obedience classes when older.

THEY ARE A LAST RESORT,BUT THEY DO WORK AND SAVE LIVES.

 

[jayp]

Have never used a shock collar but would just like to make this comment

Dont all animals lincluding humans learn by fear. Its called operant conditioning.

If a pup gets too boisterous its elders growl,nip etc, it hurts its scary and the pup does not wish to repeat this. If a horse is too pushy it is kicked or bitten, if a child trys to run accross the road it used to be smacked. Are we in danger of producing a nation of unruly dogs as well as uncontrollable children, there is nothing wrong with fear, it is the way we learn

I do however think these collars should not be freely available as the timing is crucial but as as been mentioned its the hand they are in just like any tool,a horse whip in the wrong hands could be as bad.

Aguy i used to know trained his gundogs with a shock collar, before he got this he hit them over the head with the gun barrel!!!!!! Nuf said

 

[David Matthews]

no matter what we say there will always be people for/against these collars,but i know that if my partner hadnt used one on our dog,he would either ended up shot by the farmer as he would run off across several fields then chase sheep,or chase bunnies/deer etc into the woods.He was stock broken as a pup and would not go near them when he was out lamping/ferreting etc.he was also taken to puppy classes,then obedience classes when older.THEY ARE A LAST RESORT,BUT THEY DO WORK AND SAVE LIVES.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I had a similar sxperience to Gutsey, our lurcher seldom strayed far from us when out walking, she has always been very obedient If she saw a deer, nothing would stop her and sh would disappear for half an hour or so. We were sure she would get run over or shot. It only took one use of an electric collar on the low setting to stop her. Now if she sees a deer she goes behind us and peeps at it, still trembling with excitement. She thinks that they bite from a long way off!!

There was a debate about this a few months ago with emotive responses about "Electrocuting" dogs but in reality it must be far less traumatic than if a dog touches an electified stock fence with it's nose. I feel that they should NEVER be used in normal training but in isolated cases are a godsend.

 

[FoxyDog]

> I've seen deaths and injuries caused by most training aids that are out there. >These happen when people use them incorrectly! The aids are not the problem, >the people using them incorrectly are.

>But going by your logic, since I've seen the most horrendous injuries caused by >a regular buckle collar - should these be banned as well?

>Wendy

Nice post Wendy! I agree. Over here a LOT of people are useing Gentle Leaders and Halties. They are great and I recommend them IF they are used correctly! I have seen people "pop" their dog's neck and pull them around in these head collars and it makes me sick! That is NOT how you use then. Also, people seem to think that these training aides are a quik "fix it" instead of the training tool they are intended to be. Nothing can take the place of consitent and fair traing.

A lot of people feel the same way about Pinch/Prong collars, but if used correctly they can be a great help and are actually more humane than a Choak/Slip collar.

That being said, I would only ever use any of these tools unless all other efforts have failed. And I would NEVER use one on a fearfull dog.

There is no need to use fear in dog training! EVER!!!!! Period!

I also do NOT belive in fear tactics on children either. This does NOT mean that there should be no disipline, I simply feel there are better ways. You will never get the response from fear that you will get with understanding, consitancy, and fair treatment. I have worked with MANY problem dogs and not ONE would have benifited from fear training. Fear = distrust in humans and will eventually lead to a bigger problem. Just my opinion.

FoxyDog

 

[galty]

i thought this quote from hansard was particularly interesting :thumbsup: .
Electric shock collars teach an animal to respond out of fear rather than an actual willingness to obey. They do not address underlying behavioural problems, and may leave the causes of barking or aggression suppressed. Training a dog on the basis of fear poses the risk that at some time in the future it may turn on its owner or, God forbid, on an innocent child.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Sorry Kris

If you have to quote an MP you have no grasp of the situation, you just grab points to justify your limited knowlage of the situation.

This is one quote from one MP but to your detrement to dont put the counter aguments, maybe there wernt any but as you did not give a link ??????

(i did give the link,its there for all to see,the quote i made was by one M.P. who was taking part in this debate.maybe if youd bothered to read it youd have seen that?)I have a limited knowledg of these shock collars so would not make a judgement on what an MP says but what others who have used them say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

please dont apologise.youre entitled to your view. :thumbsup: im not just grabbing points to justify my limited knowledge. :lol: before you make any more judgements it might interest you to know that in my above statement i havent made it clear whether i am for or againt these collars.so before you make your statements maybe you ought to ask me what exactly my views are before you start to dispute my qualifications?(of which you know nothing) the reason i didnt make any counter arguments is because ive just seen the arguments pro using these collars and because im someone who loves to play devils advocate in order to find out the opposing persons views and reasons why their statements are made and what professsional bodies are being quoted to back them up.so far i havent seen any professional bodies ie professional training organisations,respected dog trainers,recognised animal welfare organisations etc etc who are advocating the use of these devices.however another member has very kindly posted links to a good number of professional bodies who are against these devices.to me that speaks for itself. by the way before an M.P. stands up in the house to make their views on a subject known they usually do quite bit of research and indeed employ professional researchers who find out the facts not the rumours and not the one sided biased views.they then present the facts and the opinions of any professional respected bodies opinions on the subject in question so i wouldnt be too quick to judge an M.P.'s opinions as having no grasp of the situation.most M.P.'s are usually quite quick to grasp a situation they have to be thats the nature of their job.a number of them are/have been successful professional people.they are there to represent us, the people. (a job sadly that they dont always do)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I just wondered if the quote you gave from Hansard (No link given)

Was a One off or part of a debate with other views given.

 

[kris]

it was a quote from the debate in the house by a number of MP's.i decided to do a bit of research into them as i know little or nothing about them.i found this and thought some of the points raised were interesting,especially the one about looking at your training methods if the dog wasnt responding.im not sure i understand how the dog equates pain and the fear of the pain with recall.how does that work?personally and ive done schutzhund training and obedience etc with my dobes over the years and if a dog wasnt responding to my training methods then id approach some other trainers to ask them what they would do and seek their advice.other methods sometimes work when your own dont. :thumbsup:

i notice you keep saying the links not given but again i say if you go back youll see the link. :blink: if you cant be bothered then ill post it here again

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=...b.1158.0&m=1766

 

[midlanderkeith]

Have never used a shock collar but would just like to make this commentDont all animals lincluding humans learn by fear. Its called operant conditioning.

If a pup gets too boisterous its elders growl,nip etc, it hurts its scary and the pup does not wish to repeat this. If a horse is too pushy it is kicked or bitten, if a child trys to run accross the road it used to be smacked. Are we in danger of producing a nation of unruly dogs as well as uncontrollable children, there is nothing wrong with fear, it is the way we learn

I do however think these collars should not be freely available as the timing is crucial but as as been mentioned its the hand they are in just like any tool,a horse whip in the wrong hands could be as bad.

Aguy i used to know trained his gundogs with a shock collar, before he got this he hit them over the head with the gun barrel!!!!!! Nuf said

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Got 2 dogs here, not once have i ever used fear tactics on em, no need, ive also brought up 2 children on my own same applies with them, the day ever come my dogs fear me i;ll plat cacky

keith

 

[FeeFee]

Aguy i used to know trained his gundogs with a shock collar, before he got this he hit them over the head with the gun barrel!!!!!! Nuf said

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

The fact he used to do something worse doesn't mean that it was right to use a shock collar, it just means he's a bastard who shouldn't be let anywhere near dogs.

 

[galty]

it was a quote from the debate in the house by a number of MP's.i decided to do a bit of research into them as i know little or nothing about them.i found this and thought some of the points raised were interesting,especially the one about looking at your training methods if the dog wasnt responding.im not sure i understand how the dog equates pain and the fear of the pain with recall.how does that work?personally and ive done schutzhund training and obedience etc with my dobes over the years and if a dog wasnt responding to my training methods then id approach some other trainers to ask them what they would do and seek their advice.other methods sometimes work when your own dont. :thumbsup: i notice you keep saying the links not given but again i say if you go back youll see the link. :blink: if you cant be bothered then ill post it here again

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=...b.1158.0&m=1766

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Sorry Kris

I was replying to a partical post with no link given about a hansard statment.

I see in another post you gave the link, sorry for being so stupid ....

my fault

Bye the Bye would help if you could understand that their are morons like me about.

See in the end was not included in the AWB.

 

[kris]

Have never used a shock collar but would just like to make this commentDont all animals lincluding humans learn by fear. Its called operant conditioning.

If a pup gets too boisterous its elders growl,nip etc, it hurts its scary and the pup does not wish to repeat this. If a horse is too pushy it is kicked or bitten, if a child trys to run accross the road it used to be smacked. Are we in danger of producing a nation of unruly dogs as well as uncontrollable children, there is nothing wrong with fear, it is the way we learn

I do however think these collars should not be freely available as the timing is crucial but as as been mentioned its the hand they are in just like any tool,a horse whip in the wrong hands could be as bad.

Aguy i used to know trained his gundogs with a shock collar, before he got this he hit them over the head with the gun barrel!!!!!! Nuf said

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

operant conditioning of animals is considered a bit old hat these days.its been superceded by better methods like marion breland who first introduced clicker training.yes ive read skinner et al(i studied psychology years ago)

quote

In dog training, the use of the prey drive, particularly in training working dogs, detection dogs, etc., the stimulation of these fixed action patterns, relative to the dog's predatory instincts, are the key to producing very difficult yet consistent behaviors, and in most cases, do not involve operant, classical, or any other kind of conditioning. While evolutionary processes shaped these fix action patterns, the patterns themselves remained stable long enough to be shaped by the long time span necessary for evolution because of their survival function (i.e., operant conditioning).

According to the laws of operant conditioning, any behavior that is consistently rewarded, every single time, will extinguish at a faster rate while intermittently reinforcing behavior leads to more stable rates of behavior that are relatively more resistant to extinction. Thus, in detection dogs, any correct behavior of indicating a "find," must always be rewarded with a tug toy or a ball throw early on for initial acquisition of the behavior. Thereafter, fading procedures, in which the rate of reinforcement is "thinned" (not every response is reinforced)are introduced, switching the dog to an intermittent schedule of reinforcement, which is more resistant to instances of non-reinforcement.

Nevertheless, some trainers are now using the prey drive to train pet dogs and find that they get far better results in the dogs' responses to training than when they only use the principles of operant conditioning which, according to Skinner and his students Keller and Marian Breland (who invented clicker training), break down when strong instincts are at play.ie chasing sheep!

 

[firesprite]

so are we going to rant about electric fences for sheep, horses and pigs now?

I dont remember many post complaining about their local riding stables or free range pig farm....? Or is it ok for livestock and edibles and just not for our precious dogs?

I have had direct experience with the successful use of shock collars in the right circumstances used by sensible folk. One of whom was my vet as it happens. Yes you do get a belt from it, but trust me its much less of a belt than a terminal encounter with a bus or car or some poor innocent s*d on his motorcycle on the way home from work. I had the unfortunate misery of a dog who couldnt be let off for all 11 yrs of his life. I really wish i HAD used a collar on him, perhaps 3 seconds or less of yelping could have saved him a lifetime of restrictions.

what i would like to see banned is the use of pinch collars, these are fitted like a choke chain but with two barbs on the inside of each link to dig into the neck. A much more unpleasant piece of kit with a longer duration of discomfort inflicted on the dog. Saw my first one in use a couple of weeks ago, very nasty. Would swap for an electric collar any day!

 

[devo12]

Have never used a shock collar but would just like to make this commentDont all animals lincluding humans learn by fear. Its called operant conditioning.

If a pup gets too boisterous its elders growl,nip etc, it hurts its scary and the pup does not wish to repeat this. If a horse is too pushy it is kicked or bitten, if a child trys to run accross the road it used to be smacked. Are we in danger of producing a nation of unruly dogs as well as uncontrollable children, there is nothing wrong with fear, it is the way we learn

I do however think these collars should not be freely available as the timing is crucial but as as been mentioned its the hand they are in just like any tool,a horse whip in the wrong hands could be as bad.

Aguy i used to know trained his gundogs with a shock collar, before he got this he hit them over the head with the gun barrel!!!!!! Nuf said

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

operant conditioning of animals is considered a bit old hat these days.its been superceded by better methods like marion breland who first introduced clicker training.yes ive read skinner et al(i studied psychology years ago)

quote

In dog training, the use of the prey drive, particularly in training working dogs, detection dogs, etc., the stimulation of these fixed action patterns, relative to the dog's predatory instincts, are the key to producing very difficult yet consistent behaviors, and in most cases, do not involve operant, classical, or any other kind of conditioning. While evolutionary processes shaped these fix action patterns, the patterns themselves remained stable long enough to be shaped by the long time span necessary for evolution because of their survival function (i.e., operant conditioning).

According to the laws of operant conditioning, any behavior that is consistently rewarded, every single time, will extinguish at a faster rate while intermittently reinforcing behavior leads to more stable rates of behavior that are relatively more resistant to extinction. Thus, in detection dogs, any correct behavior of indicating a "find," must always be rewarded with a tug toy or a ball throw early on for initial acquisition of the behavior. Thereafter, fading procedures, in which the rate of reinforcement is "thinned" (not every response is reinforced)are introduced, switching the dog to an intermittent schedule of reinforcement, which is more resistant to instances of non-reinforcement.

Nevertheless, some trainers are now using the prey drive to train pet dogs and find that they get far better results in the dogs' responses to training than when they only use the principles of operant conditioning which, according to Skinner and his students Keller and Marian Breland (who invented clicker training), break down when strong instincts are at play.ie chasing sheep!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

"switching the dog to an intermittent schedule of reinforcement, which is more resistant to instances of non-reinforcement"

now i know were im going wrong, no more sheep worrying from my dog

:thumbsup:

 

[David Matthews]

Have never used a shock collar but would just like to make this commentDont all animals lincluding humans learn by fear. Its called operant conditioning.

If a pup gets too boisterous its elders growl,nip etc, it hurts its scary and the pup does not wish to repeat this. If a horse is too pushy it is kicked or bitten, if a child trys to run accross the road it used to be smacked. Are we in danger of producing a nation of unruly dogs as well as uncontrollable children, there is nothing wrong with fear, it is the way we learn

I do however think these collars should not be freely available as the timing is crucial but as as been mentioned its the hand they are in just like any tool,a horse whip in the wrong hands could be as bad.

Aguy i used to know trained his gundogs with a shock collar, before he got this he hit them over the head with the gun barrel!!!!!! Nuf said

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Got 2 dogs here, not once have i ever used fear tactics on em, no need, ive also brought up 2 children on my own same applies with them, the day ever come my dogs fear me i;ll plat cacky

keith

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

We only needed to use the collar once and it certainly didn't cause her to fear us. It just made her very wary of deer. She has no hesitation to chase other quarry.

We managed to get my daughter's boyfriend to try the collar on his wrist. It didn't do any damage, unfortunately!!

 

[Seraphina]

I imagine that these collars are so efficient if used properly because the dog does not know you had anything to do with the unpleasant sensation. It is the only punitive measure which does not make the dog fear the trainer.

The problem of dogs running after wildlife and disapearing is that they get so excited they do not seem to see or hear. If they get quick zap, lasting only fraction of second, they sort of come down to earth. My first Whippet was like that, and she disapeared after hare over the horizon on couple of occassions, comming back covered in blood. I had to be always very careful where and when to let her off the leash. Such a difference from my present girls, who are very good on recall. If they were not I would not hesitate to use shock collar. Dogs relieble on recall have can be alowed so much more free exercise.

Just few weeks ago we had an incident . It rained the whole week and we have not been out at all, finally I took them to visit friend in the country and while we walked through the padocks they run far ahead, when a rabbit jumped up right in front of them and took off, with my girls in hot persuit. I called each of their names, one after other. The moment i shouted each name the appropriate dog skid stopped and and ran at full speed to me.