Genetics, Health And Breeding?

[Avalonia]

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In the interest of full disclosure, I have used a few very exciting young males, but I try not to make a habit of it. I'm much more comfortable using a dog who has at least made it to late middle age in good health.  And I love to use a true Veteran.
Karen Lee

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Hi Karen Lee, Lanny Morry here in Manotick, Ont. Canada.

I so agree with you about the age at which sires are used over here. And of course being successful in the show ring also leads to over-use too. I was working on a pedigree today and added up the number of bitches I have bred to one popular American sire and the new bitch I was adding made her number 50 on the list ... and I know I don't have all of them on my program.

Some years ago we did a breeding because we wanted to retain something we were afraid we might otherwise lose. We bred a son of Eng.Am.Cdn.Ch. Nevedith Up Town Guy x Am.Cdn.Ch. Amazone's Glastonbury Lily (who finished her AKC championship in 4 shows, four days in a row on the Kentuckiana circuit with 4-4point majors) -- who provided our foundation litter -- to a granddaughter of this combination. Yes this was a close breeding but done because we were seeking to cement qualities we saw in all of the dogs involved. Over the years visitors to our property kept commenting on the dog out of this breeding that we kept -- a gorgeous gunmetal blue dog with white points whom we registered as Avalonia Dom Perignon. Stupidly we never showed him but we had the good sense to keep him and over the years people kept commenting about the unbelievable movement and presence of this dog.

Along the way we kept breeding to somewhat younger males in our pack -- until this year when we finally bit the bullet and bred the boy we looked for when we did his breeding back in 1998. Dom Perignon, now 9 years old, will be a sire later this month, bred to a female sire by one of our boys Ch. Avalonia Wotta Jesta out of a bitch imported to America and used only once -- Pardee Bo Peep at Nevedith (litter sister of Eng.Slov.Ch. Pardee Appy Arry at Nevedith).

The saying every dog has his day has finally come true for our Dom.

Lanny

 

[almondjd]

I think what Manda was trying to say before is a more technical (and accurate) way of saying what some of the old-time breeders have been saying for eons...basically that when you closely linebreed, you double up on the good, and double up on the bad. In this case, the 'bad' being stuff that you either can't see or don't know about at first blush, but which may come out in the wash the more tightly a dog is linebred...

Jalynn

 

[Avalonia]

[i so agree with you about the age at which sires are used over here. And of course being successful in the show ring also leads to over-use too. I was working on a pedigree today and added up the number of bitches I have bred to one popular American sire and the new bitch I was adding made her number 50 on the list ... and I know I don't have all of them on my program.

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Just to make it clear, the pedigree I was working on was not of anything associated with our bloodlines. It was of an extremely popular American show dog of the not very distant past -- one of the dogs I think of as flavour of the month at his particular point in time. And the dam was yet another of the many bitches bred to him with scant thought as to pedigree, as near as I can see. The pedigree of the resultant litter was so diverse that you have to wonder what anyone was thinking when they bred this combination together, but obviously Mr. Popular Stud dog was a big attractant whether or not type or pedigree meshed or not. After 25 years I remain convinced that well planned linebreeding is the only approach to pursue to guarantee balanced litters.

Lanny

 

[Natalia]

bottom line:
line breeding is based on what you can see in a dog/bitch

It's what you *can't* see that causes the diseases we've been talking about - when all the recessives come together - but you didn't know they were there because they were recessive and so hidden

which is why it's generally not the case that you 'bring in ill health' by outcrossing to another (inbred) line - it's more that the match between the two lines shows up disease that was already there in both

does that make more sense?

Yes, it does make sense, if we are talking about single gene recessive disease. Sometimes (usually) things are more complicated.

One example - one line can be even homozygous for a disease, it may be even a dominant one, but have also another gene, preventing it from developing clinical signs. Another line may be free from the genes for that disease, but also free of those "preventing" gene. When crossing them, you can get the disease, as you get puppies with combination "with disease gene but without preventing gene".

Maybe it would be easier to understand when transfered to colour genes - let's say we have one healthy line with blacks only. Let's say this line is also homozygous for brindle, but we can't see it, as solid black or blue masks brindle. And we think about outcrossing with another line, solid fawn, without brindle. These two lines, when crossed together would result in black puppies, but we could also get brindle ones. If brindling was a disease, they would be ill. And it wasn't the fawn line which brought it into ours - it was our original, "brindle-free" line which was affected - but we weren't able to see it, as we have masking black gene.

Another example - one disease may depend not on one gene, but, let's say on 3. We have a disease for example from combination of A-B-C-, but not if we have aa or bb or cc. Now, if one line has AAcc and both forms of B/b, and another line has aaCC and both forms of B/b, both of them are healthy. However, when crossed, they can result in ill puppies, as all of them will have both A and C, and some of them will also have B, which is combination for disease. BTW, similar patern is suggested for heredity of height, and that explains why it is so, that sometimes mating between two dogs well in size gives very big puppies.

If the genes needed for disease are all recessive, or some of them (for example A-bbcc), the first generation can be safe, but in future matings we can have ill puppies, as we have all the genes needed for disease in the line now and it is only a matter of time when they combine together.

 

[dessie]

bottom line:
line breeding is based on what you can see in a dog/bitch

It's what you *can't* see that causes the diseases we've been talking about - when all the recessives come together - but you didn't know they were there because they were recessive and so hidden

which is why it's generally not the case that you 'bring in ill health' by outcrossing to another (inbred) line - it's more that the match between the two lines shows up disease that was already there in both

does that make more sense?

Yes, it does make sense, if we are talking about single gene recessive disease. Sometimes (usually) things are more complicated.

One example - one line can be even homozygous for a disease, it may be even a dominant one, but have also another gene, preventing it from developing clinical signs. Another line may be free from the genes for that disease, but also free of those "preventing" gene. When crossing them, you can get the disease, as you get puppies with combination "with disease gene but without preventing gene".

Maybe it would be easier to understand when transfered to colour genes - let's say we have one healthy line with blacks only. Let's say this line is also homozygous for brindle, but we can't see it, as solid black or blue masks brindle. And we think about outcrossing with another line, solid fawn, without brindle. These two lines, when crossed together would result in black puppies, but we could also get brindle ones. If brindling was a disease, they would be ill. And it wasn't the fawn line which brought it into ours - it was our original, "brindle-free" line which was affected - but we weren't able to see it, as we have masking black gene.

Another example - one disease may depend not on one gene, but, let's say on 3. We have a disease for example from combination of A-B-C-, but not if we have aa or bb or cc. Now, if one line has AAcc and both forms of B/b, and another line has aaCC and both forms of B/b, both of them are healthy. However, when crossed, they can result in ill puppies, as all of them will have both A and C, and some of them will also have B, which is combination for disease. BTW, similar patern is suggested for heredity of height, and that explains why it is so, that sometimes mating between two dogs well in size gives very big puppies.

If the genes needed for disease are all recessive, or some of them (for example A-bbcc), the first generation can be safe, but in future matings we can have ill puppies, as we have all the genes needed for disease in the line now and it is only a matter of time when they combine together.

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Now you have really depressed me Natalia!!! LOL!!

Thank you though, that is a really clear, succinct precis of a very complex subject and I think it goes to show that we can only do our best when breeding our much loved dogs. Also that we should learn from any 'mistakes' we may make in the process and, perhaps, share that knowledge with our fellow Whippeteers.

 

[Eceni]

Dear all,

Thank you so much for sticking with this thread, for your honesty, your ability to keep personalities out of it and your courage and integrity in naming some of the conditions you've met. I came to it knowing very little about Whippet lines and with only a hazy, fairly generic grasp of genetics.

Thanks to all of you, I am beginning to understand whippet lines a little - I'm sure there's a long way to go.

Thanks to Natalia - who is a geneticist who understands dog breeding and has an interest in whippets (how much better can it get?!), I am understanding the detail of dog breeding and population genetics far more than I have ever done.

Thanks to her also for passing on this website, which is outstanding, and well worth exploring in all its depth for a lucid, easy assessment of canine genetics and how it applies to breeding (I would recommend you read particularly 'The Poodle and the Chocolate Cake' but all of it is illuminating and interesting).

Canine Genetics

It feels to me now as if we have reached something similar to the global warming debate: we can discuss the detail of exactly how bad it is and how to mitigate it, but few people deny there is a problem. And whether we understand the science fully or not, we are all clear that we are either part of the solution, or part of the problem, there is no middle ground.

In terms of breeding dogs, it seems to me that:

- all breeders, both professional and hobby, are practicing genetic science, even if they don't know it.

- all breeders therefore have a moral responsibility to be at the leading edge of the science they practice, and to educate themselves in its latest findings

- if this is impossible, then breeders need to find those who are at the leading edge of their science and listen to what they're saying. (If i were you, I'd have Natalia speaking at every breed club in the country, if she'd do that...)

IF I have understood Natalia correctly (and please let me know if I haven't), then the situation is as follows:

- Line-breeding, when done correctly, can be useful for eradicating single deleterious genes, as described by Karen

but

- Line-breeding, when consistently and persistently practised, will always ultimately destroy any population to which it is applied.

- twenty years ago, line breeding was an accepted, lauded part of breeding

- that time is past and we now have a situation where continued line breeding will lead to a weakening of the breed

- the whippet has been lucky in that the original gene pool was fairly large and it began with a type where form and function were closely allied. It is, therefore, a relatively healthy breed.

- however, if line breeding continues at its present rate, the overall breed health will deteriorate and the incidence of auto-immune and other diseases will increase.

We could continue to debate peoples' belief in this for years: there are after all people who still deny global warming and others who believe the world is flat. The difference between them is that the flat-earthers do nobody much harm whereas the global warming deniers are actively contributing to its continuation.

- You who are breeders have every right similarly to ignore or re-interpret the science. It's a free world: nobody can stop you

BUT

- Those who would rather listen to the science need to have some idea of what to do

With that in mind, the canine genetics web site listed above says the following:

A role for the breed clubs

Each breed needs a database with all the breedable animals recorded with all their ancestors back to the founders. This would most appropriately be the task of the breed club. Are any actually doing this (outside some of the rare breeds)?

 

Such a database would enable breeders to identify which individuals are most likely to carry the genes from each founder. At the level of the individual breeder, it would enable him/her to make intelligent, informed choices when selecting mates. Measures might also be considered to re-balance the breed, in order to ensure that the remaining diversity is more evenly distributed and that, therefore, there is less risk of loss.

So perhaps we can move this discussion on to how best to do the above, rather than continuing on the loop of whether it's necessary?

I'm not a breeder, but I'm happy to help if I can.

thank you all for your time and thought

Manda Scott

 

[whippynit]

can i just ask does anybody know how you can print off k9 ( i.e just certain pages)without printing the whole thread? :cheers:

 

[seaspot_run]

Very well stated, Manda.

I admit my thinking on this has undergone an evolution in the past few years. Some of the old breeding axioms turn out to be fairly well aligned with our new knowledge of health and genetics, but not all do.

I will still incorporate some linebreedings into my scheme, but will be looking for more outcrosses to maintain diversity in between doing those linebreedings. While the great kennels that provide the modern foundation were often built through artful line and in-breeding practices, it is clear to me that things that worked well decades ago aren't necessarily the best practices today. In addition, the purebred dog hobby has their reputation to think of with the public, and is ever under attack by the animal rights lobby for whom the production of unhealthy dogs by breeders who choose show ring success over health is a talking point that has real legs in the public eye.

Over here in the US, we have some states that actually have pet "lemon laws" where the buyers of an unhealthy dog have legal recourse against the breeder. That's a trend that's not going away.

It's good to take advantage of the increased knowledge and better genetic tools at our disposal, as well as the power of the internet to create databases that can be easily accessed by breeders doing pedigree research. I also feel that raising money for research into the modes of heredity of certain problems that breeders are coming up with, even if they don't affect all lines, is a worthwhile goal for parent clubs.

Karen Lee

 

[maggie217]

bottom line:
line breeding is based on what you can see in a dog/bitch

It's what you *can't* see that causes the diseases we've been talking about - when all the recessives come together - but you didn't know they were there because they were recessive and so hidden

which is why it's generally not the case that you 'bring in ill health' by outcrossing to another (inbred) line - it's more that the match between the two lines shows up disease that was already there in both

does that make more sense?

Yes, it does make sense, if we are talking about single gene recessive disease. Sometimes (usually) things are more complicated.

One example - one line can be even homozygous for a disease, it may be even a dominant one, but have also another gene, preventing it from developing clinical signs. Another line may be free from the genes for that disease, but also free of those "preventing" gene. When crossing them, you can get the disease, as you get puppies with combination "with disease gene but without preventing gene".

Maybe it would be easier to understand when transfered to colour genes - let's say we have one healthy line with blacks only. Let's say this line is also homozygous for brindle, but we can't see it, as solid black or blue masks brindle. And we think about outcrossing with another line, solid fawn, without brindle. These two lines, when crossed together would result in black puppies, but we could also get brindle ones. If brindling was a disease, they would be ill. And it wasn't the fawn line which brought it into ours - it was our original, "brindle-free" line which was affected - but we weren't able to see it, as we have masking black gene.

Another example - one disease may depend not on one gene, but, let's say on 3. We have a disease for example from combination of A-B-C-, but not if we have aa or bb or cc. Now, if one line has AAcc and both forms of B/b, and another line has aaCC and both forms of B/b, both of them are healthy. However, when crossed, they can result in ill puppies, as all of them will have both A and C, and some of them will also have B, which is combination for disease. BTW, similar patern is suggested for heredity of height, and that explains why it is so, that sometimes mating between two dogs well in size gives very big puppies.

If the genes needed for disease are all recessive, or some of them (for example A-bbcc), the first generation can be safe, but in future matings we can have ill puppies, as we have all the genes needed for disease in the line now and it is only a matter of time when they combine together.

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Thank you again for a very understandable explanation Natalia. Nothing is simple is it :- "

And thanks Eceni for such a fascinating topic.

 

[Seraphina]

Thank you Natalia for your very well expressed explanations. I haven't been able to find the words. :thumbsup:

The fact that inbreeding compromises the immune system is nothing new, it was certainly well known 50 years ago when I started to read about breeding dogs. I have therefore always tried to keep my dogs' genome as diverse as practically possible.

Also, Natalia, could you please comment;

1- it is well known fact that older woman is more likely to have a baby with Down syndrome. There is also evidence now that elderly fathers are also more likely to pass congenital problems on to their offspring. Would not this also apply to dogs? After all in nature it is usually only the strongest male in his prime that mates.

2- The gene causing genetic disease does not have to exist back in a line for ever, the normal version becomes damaged by mutation and is only then passed down to future generation. Breast cancer in humans for instance.

 

[petrezselyem]

What an important and interesting topic, thank You so much!

It is very needed, just go on with it! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I will still incorporate some linebreedings into my scheme, but will be looking for more outcrosses to maintain diversity in between doing those linebreedings. While the great kennels that provide the modern foundation were often built through artful line and in-breeding practices, it is clear to me that things that worked well decades ago aren't necessarily the best practices today. In addition, the purebred dog hobby has their reputation to think of with the public, and is ever under attack by the animal rights lobby for whom the production of unhealthy dogs by breeders who choose show ring success over health is a talking point that has real legs in the public eye.

Absolutely agree Karen, this is a very sympathetic point of view for me.

 

[windsongwhippets]

Hi

I have a question for everyone. What do you as breeders do if a dog you have sold comes up with a serious health problem ? Do you offer a money back guarantee or do you offer to replace the dog ? Or do you offer nothing ? I am curious as this topic comes up often here in the USA. Some breeders offer full refunds, some replace a puppy and some do nothing.

Do you sell on contracts that give a health guarantee? If so what ? Is the guarantee different for a show dog than a pet ?

In the US it is common to offer some kind of health guarantee. ( and yes, I think the "puppy lemon laws" have something to do with it. ) Although most breeders did offer health guarantees before the advent of these. I believe most US breeders will replace a pet puppy if it develops something which will preclude its being a good pet. A show prospect will be replaced if it develops a disqualifying fault, is not show quality ( different methods of determining this) and if a health problem develops. And there are some who offer nothing at all.

Just curious

Carol

 

[Natalia]

Also, Natalia, could you please comment;
1-  it is well known fact that older woman is more likely to have a baby with Down syndrome.  There is also evidence now that elderly fathers are also more likely to pass congenital problems on to their offspring.  Would not this also apply to dogs?  After all in nature it is usually only the strongest male in his prime that mates.

Down syndrom doesn't exist in dogs, but some other trisomies were found actually. I'm afraid that most of tha cases remain unkonwn, as it is almost impossible to to tell, that this or that dog died becouse of trisomy. Most of these result in prenatal or neonatal deaths. Down syndrom is a exception really as a condition one can live with for many years with relativelly few other health problems, in some cases at least.

I don't know any atatistics, I'm not sure if anyone did a research on that, but knowing some biological rules, one can predict that any genetic problems can be more frequent in older dogs. But:

- few of us would like to see a bitch having a litter after she is 7 or maybe 8 years old - and that means she is only at half or a little more of her life span and reproduction period (we should remember that there is no menopausis in dogs). It's different situation than a 45 y.o woman, being at the very end of her reproduction period having a baby. Talking about using a veteran dog I think we mean rather 7-10 y.o than a 16 y.o male.

- I don't have evidence on that, but I would expect trisomy and similar defects would be rarer in dogs than in women in their 40, because woman' egg had a 40+ years history compared to, let's say 10 years in a bitch. Time is also a factor in this situation.

- In nature, when talking about wolf alpha males, they usually don't reach the top of hierarchy until well matured, never at the age of 2. And the fit and strong ones can remain at the top position for many years. I don't have exact data, but I'm sure I have watched a documental film about such a male, at the age of 15, having a litter and of course still perfectly doing his job of catching rabbits to feed her female and puppies.

2-  The gene causing genetic disease does not have to exist back in a line for ever, the normal version becomes damaged by mutation and is only then passed down to future generation.  Breast cancer in humans for instance.

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Every gene for disease started as a mutation in a reproductive cell in the past. I'm not sure if I understand properly what you mean.

In general, cancer is caused by mutation. Normally every cell has a mechanism, preventig it form dividing again and again. In cancer cells this mechanism is broken, and they can divide endlessly - that's why the cancer can grow and grow. This kind f mutations is quite common in our cells, but we have mechanisms of repairing it, or killing altered cells when they are found. However, these mechanisms also depend on some genes, and mutation in them can cause their malfunctionig - then we are prone to certain type of cancer. But the mutation which changes normal cell into a cancer cell isn't passed to another generation, as it only exists in body cells, not in reproductive ones. Any mutation has to affect a reproductive cell if it is to be inherited.

 

[Seraphina]

Thanks

1-I did not form the question well :b . I was using the Downs syndrome as an example of a congenital problem, which is more likely to appear when the mother is older, not suggesting that is something to worry about in dogs. .

2- What I was trying to say was that people should not assume that because their dogs have certain inherited disorder it had to come from somewhere. As you say the mutation can happen any time, after all tiny mutation occur all the time, but how rare are such drastic ones that actually cause a problem? Is it a sudden change or is it also a gradual process over many generations?

 

[Natalia]

2- What I was trying to say was that people should not assume that because their dogs have certain inherited disorder it had to come from somewhere.  As you say the mutation can happen any time, after all tiny mutation occur all the time, but how rare are such drastic ones that actually cause a problem?  Is it a sudden change or is it also a gradual process over many generations?

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Mutations are very rare. And most of them are recessive. So, if you have clinical signs in any indiwidual, it must have two copies of the deffective gene, from mother AND father. It's far more possible that he inherited them from the parents, than that two similar mutations did occur in both parents.

The repairing mechanisms in the cells are very effective, so it is unlikely that many tiny mutations accumulate over generations, unless it is in no-coding fragment of DNA (and it is being observed actually, in fact that's the method of analysing time in genetic terms, for example - how many years ago humans and chimpanzees had common ancestor). Mutation for big problem isn't necessary "more drastic" than any other - both can be, for example, simple lack of one tiny molecule - causing a protein to be unfonctional.

 

[*Mark*]

I think that this is interesting reading and a valuable topic,

However, we also need to put the topic of congenital/genetic disorders in to context because we are at risk of giving the impression that the breed is in ruins, which it isn't.

Over the last three years in the UK 8183 whippet puppies have been registered with the UK Kennel Club. It would be interesting to know other countries registration number.

My point is, most if not the significant majority will be 'healthy' disorder free whelps living a full and healthy life.

I might have been very lucky but I can honestly say that our vet bills for the whippets over the last 10 years or so would be around £1500 max. Inclusive of Puppy vaccinations, PTS, and one 'C' section at a cost of £450. (We don't booster vaccinate)

I think we are a long way off the dooms day of our breed that could be ill-

conceived conclusion from reading some of this thread.

Yes, it is important that we don't stick our heads in the sand but likewise let’s not scream FIRE, FIRE! from the roof tops.

 

[parnew]

I think that this is interesting reading and a valuable topic,
However, we also need to put the topic of congenital/genetic disorders in to context because we are at risk of giving the impression that the breed is in ruins, which it isn't.

Over the last three years in the UK 8183 whippet puppies have been registered with the UK Kennel Club. It would be interesting to know other countries registration number.

My point is, most if not the significant majority will be 'healthy' disorder free whelps living a full and healthy life.

I might have been very lucky but I can honestly say that our vet bills for the whippets over the last 10 years or so would be around £1500 max. Inclusive of Puppy vaccinations, PTS, and one 'C' section at a cost of £450. (We don't booster vaccinate)

I think we are a long way off the dooms day of our breed that could be ill-

conceived conclusion from reading some of this thread.

Yes, it is important that we don't stick our heads in the sand but likewise let’s not scream FIRE, FIRE! from the roof tops.

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Couldn't Agree more !!!! These things I have not seen in my sort time in the breed (13 years)and apart for the odd tests problem we have been ok, but still have the eyes open, good thread.

 

[dragonfly]

I think that this is interesting reading and a valuable topic,
However, we also need to put the topic of congenital/genetic disorders in to context because we are at risk of giving the impression that the breed is in ruins, which it isn't.

Over the last three years in the UK 8183 whippet puppies have been registered with the UK Kennel Club. It would be interesting to know other countries registration number.

My point is, most if not the significant majority will be 'healthy' disorder free whelps living a full and healthy life.

I might have been very lucky but I can honestly say that our vet bills for the whippets over the last 10 years or so would be around £1500 max. Inclusive of Puppy vaccinations, PTS, and one 'C' section at a cost of £450. (We don't booster vaccinate)

I think we are a long way off the dooms day of our breed that could be ill-

conceived conclusion from reading some of this thread.

Yes, it is important that we don't stick our heads in the sand but likewise let’s not scream FIRE, FIRE! from the roof tops.

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In reply to Mark, this is exactly what I said a few pages back, most whippets are healthy, and If we look at the potential problems now, and take action we can hopefully keep them that way. If we do nothing the breed will eventually, inevitably have increasing likelihood of inherited disease just the same as other breeds.

Cathie

The point that I really want to get across is that although there are definitely inherited health problems in our breed they are not yet at a high level and we still have time to do something about it. Most whippets are strong and healthy but this won't continue for ever if the breed as a whole does not tackle this issue.
Cathie

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[windsongwhippets]

Hi all

I guess I got an answer to my post about puppy guarantees. No answer. So may I assume from the lack of replies that no one has any opinion or that no one gives any guarantees ( or warranties) on health issues ?

So I will pose yet another topic ( or question). Cathie mentioned having quite a few pedigrees which indicated that there are many auto-immune problems in the breed. I would be very interested in hearing just how these problems manifested. Which conditions were shown by the affected dogs ?

This is something that I've always thought to be a rare occurence in Whippets. I know there are "reactions" in the immune system which are caused by various factors. ( reactions to vaccines mainly) I previously recounted one that happened to a dog I bred which was triggered by giving a 9 way shot and a Rabies Vaccine within minutes of one another. Thankfully the dog recovered and is perfectly healthy at this point. He has been given Rabies vaccines since ( because the law requires same) and has had his regular vaccines as well. ( without Leptospirosis) I don't consider this as the dog having auto-immune disorder, but something that was caused by an enviornmental action.

Since Cathie indicated that she feels there is a pretty large incidence of this in our breed, I would like very much to hear more.

Carol

 

[Strike Whippets]

Hi all
I guess I got an answer to my post about puppy guarantees.  No answer.  So may I assume from the lack of replies that no one has any opinion or that no one gives any guarantees ( or warranties) on health issues ?

So I will pose yet another topic ( or question).  Cathie mentioned having quite a few pedigrees which indicated that there are many auto-immune problems in the breed.  I would be very interested in hearing just how these problems manifested. Which conditions were shown by the affected dogs ?

This is something that I've always thought to be a rare occurence in Whippets.  I know there are "reactions" in the immune system which are caused by various factors. ( reactions to vaccines mainly)  I previously recounted one that happened to a dog I bred which was triggered by giving a 9 way shot and a Rabies Vaccine within minutes of one another.  Thankfully the dog recovered and is perfectly healthy at this point.  He has been given Rabies vaccines since ( because the law requires same) and has had  his regular vaccines as well. ( without Leptospirosis)  I don't consider this as the dog having auto-immune disorder, but something that was caused by an enviornmental action.

Since Cathie indicated that she feels there is a pretty large incidence of this in our breed, I would like very much to hear more.

Carol

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I have 2 with auto immune problems .....I wouldn't put either down to being triggered by vaccinations ..... Having worked with dogs for many years, there are auto immune problems in many BREEDS of dogs, and YES Whippets are among them ..... I personally wouldn't give a "puppy" guarantee, not because I don't think my puppies are healthy, but because I'd be gutted to think if I thought an owner really wanted a pup, but was willing to give it up or swap it so quickly "IF" the pup became ill ..... I have brought a pup back from my friends who's family sadly fell apart ......and I've always told every new owner the same ..... But I must admit I'd be really upset if I thought I'd let someone have a pup that saw the money instead of the pup ....... and just for the record I spend @ £90 per month on medication for 2 of mine ....and I'd never dream of handing them back !!!!