Height Size Standards

[Rachel]

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I might be playing 'devil's advocate' here but whippets have increased in height because we have allowed them to, not because of in-crosses, out-crosses or even noughts and crosses.

Just playing your game Quintessence! (and wearing my devils advocate outfit too! red is so the new black! lol) !f the UK show world brought in measuring sticks as they do in racing, and dogs were disqualified for being over the height standard in the showring, would heights over a period of time become more correct in that the penalties for breeding 'big' in were so great??? Has the height thing become a problem because it is sort of tolerated in the showring?

 

[~JO~]

I'd prefer them to ban upright shoulders, short upper arms and mincey hackney movement than a whippet above the 'desirable' standard!

 

[quintessence]

I might be playing 'devil's advocate' here but whippets have increased in height because we have allowed them to, not because of in-crosses, out-crosses or even noughts and crosses.

Just playing your game Quintessence! (and wearing my devils advocate outfit too! red is so the new black! lol) !f the UK show world brought in measuring sticks as they do in racing, and dogs were disqualified for being over the height standard in the showring, would heights over a period of time become more correct in that the penalties for breeding 'big' in were so great??? Has the height thing become a problem because it is sort of tolerated in the showring?

How much the "height thing has become a problem" I'm not sure. Judges will judge the whole dog and place accordingly, some things they will like and some things they will not like but I hope they will look at the whole picture and not fault judge.

 

[liza]

I might be playing 'devil's advocate' here but whippets have increased in height because we have allowed them to, not because of in-crosses, out-crosses or even noughts and crosses.

Just playing your game Quintessence! (and wearing my devils advocate outfit too! red is so the new black! lol) !f the UK show world brought in measuring sticks as they do in racing, and dogs were disqualified for being over the height standard in the showring, would heights over a period of time become more correct in that the penalties for breeding 'big' in were so great??? Has the height thing become a problem because it is sort of tolerated in the showring?

How much the "height thing has become a problem" I'm not sure. Judges will judge the whole dog and place accordingly, some things they will like and some things they will not like but I hope they will look at the whole picture and not fault judge.

to me if a dog or bitch is oversized and correct in every other way it should not be disregaurded

 

[Seraphina]

Of course diet is a factor. Look at humans compared to say the 15th century. The average height was about a half foot to a foot shorter than today with most women lucky to get to 5 feet tall.

If human race was indeed growing by 6" in 500 years that would mean that 5000 years ago we were the size of rabbits :lol:

Actually the Neanderthals were about 5", while homo sapiens living in the same time were taller.

If average size of a Whippet is some 2-3" more than it was 20 years ago, that is over some 7 generations, increase of 15%-20%.

 

[Seraphina]

to me if a dog or bitch is oversized and correct in every other way it should not be disregaurded

Hmmmmm.... so do you think that if somebody brings in 26" Whippet it should be judged purely on conformation?

What about type?

 

[GotWhippet?]

Of course diet is a factor. Look at humans compared to say the 15th century. The average height was about a half foot to a foot shorter than today with most women lucky to get to 5 feet tall.

If human race was indeed growing by 6" in 500 years that would mean that 5000 years ago we were the size of rabbits :lol:

.

You really do make a pill of yourself with stupid comments like that

 

[whippetfan]

Some countries have seen significant increases in average human height in a generation or two. The simple reason is that children are now being fed in a manner which optimises their genetic height potential.

I have no doubt the same result has occured in dogs - not just Whippets. Many breeds are seeing increasing numbers of dogs grow to the top or past the standard. Optimum nutrition means maximum growth. I sometimes wonder if that is also the reason why joint issues like HD seem more prevalent than in the past.

The choice for all breed fanciers is to decide whether to allow for the height increases in the standard or to select for smaller dogs.

There will have to be a balance struck between height, type and function. I am sure that is not a new challenge for breeders but one that they may face more regularly than in the past.

My guess is that the potential for taller dogs has always been in the breed. Given its greyhound ancestors that's no surprise I suppose.

 

[turb065]

Today at obediencethe topic arose about breed heights not nesecarilly in whippets, but the general opinion was that heights have increased across the board, if not nesecarilly height muscular status too. Borders seem to be more "bulky" where as Papillions seem to getting "bigger". Speaking to another whippet owner, they were of the opinion that the US dogs they have come across are bigger in whippets and other breeds too. Maybe it also depends on dogs get imported and exported too.

P.S for those that wanted to see crispy "stacked" although she wouldn't put her head up without me infront of her making it hard to get a pic of her

 

[Seraphina]

Some countries have seen significant increases in average human height in a generation or two. The simple reason is that children are now being fed in a manner which optimises their genetic height potential.

Of-course, it is true that in "western" countries people are now, for the first time in the history, pretty much universally well nourished all their lives. I the past, even the wealthy people, who had plenty to eat, would be very unlikely eating well balanced diet, and depended on what is seasonally available. Even in the 20th century in Europe people did not have enough to eat during the world wars and for some years after, so it is very likely that many people did not reach their full genetic height. However, studies have shown that short men are less likely to marry than tall men. We all look for the tall and handsome, and that is also type of natural selection that favors increase in height of population.

The fact is that everything we are is determined by our genes.

 

[beaker]

the Labradors my family were breeding 40 ish years ago were marginally smaller than the ones bred 20 years ago, which in turn were smaller than the ones around today,

In the last 40 years their natural feeding regime(it wasn't called BARF 40 years ago) has barely changed,

so unless the meat they feed now is packed chocka block full of bovine growth hormone then the steady size increase can't be attributed simply to better nutrition, it's more likely down to the selection of the most rubust pups in the litter and every subsequent litter after that

 

[liza]

to me if a dog or bitch is oversized and correct in every other way it should not be disregaurded

Hmmmmm.... so do you think that if somebody brings in 26" Whippet it should be judged purely on conformation?

What about type?

i was told that you only have one type and that is the breed standard

can i ask all you breeders if you were judging and you had a correct sized dog / bitch that was totaly incorrectly made and did not fit the breed standard or an upto size dog / bitch which was correctly made and did did fit the breed standard how would you place them

 

[liza]

to me if a dog or bitch is oversized and correct in every other way it should not be disregaurded

Hmmmmm.... so do you think that if somebody brings in 26" Whippet it should be judged purely on conformation?

What about type?

i was told that you only have one type and that is the breed standard

can i ask all you breeders if you were judging and you had a correct sized dog / bitch that was totaly incorrectly made and did not fit the breed standard or an upto size dog / bitch which was correctly made and did did fit the breed standard how would you place them

 

[Wayward_Angel]

I think you will find that height in whippets is a problem world wide, and yes breeders do know about it!! At the whippet congress held in Aust in 2004 a lady from Japan said that the Japenese kennel Club had given breeders in japan 5 yrs to bring the size of whippets down, I don't know what would happen if they havent!!

This was taken from the NZKC whippet standard:

Weight and Size:

The ideal height for dogs is 47 cm (18.5 in) and for bitches 44 cm (17.5 in). Judges should use their discretion and not unduly penalise an otherwise good specimen.

When Bo Bengston was in NZ in 2002 to judge at NZ 1st National whippet show at the discussion held, he said that there was no show quality male in the world that meets our standard size.

Currently in NZ the bitches are male standard size and dogs 2-3 cms bigger. I think we are lucky in NZ to have these words after the size.. Judges should use their discretion and not unduly penalise an otherwise good speicmen. otherwise we wouldn't have the great dogs we have in the rings that winning as they are all over the preferred height!!

And as Lida pointed out BREED TYPE should be considered the most important quality of the dog!! To understand Breed type read the General Apperance of the Whippet standard. and the key words from this should be Symmerty of Outline (no shape = no whippet, Great elegance and grace of outline, Musculal development and powerful gait and all forms of exaggeration should be avioded.

I would choose a dog that was bigger that had all I was looking for over a smaller dog that didn't have the goods anyday!!

 

[parnew]

to me if a dog or bitch is oversized and correct in every other way it should not be disregaurded

Hmmmmm.... so do you think that if somebody brings in 26" Whippet it should be judged purely on conformation?

What about type?

i was told that you only have one type and that is the breed standard

can i ask all you breeders if you were judging and you had a correct sized dog / bitch that was totaly incorrectly made and did not fit the breed standard or an upto size dog / bitch which was correctly made and did did fit the breed standard how would you place them

This topic has been covered before, the only people that control the height in the breed are the judges. There are judges out there that don't know what 18 inches looks like, their eye tells them they are 18 inches but when the measure comes out they are 19 inches and so on, If there mates show a 21 inch dog and they award it best of breed and then best in group they will continue to show an over sized dog along with there over sized bitch and next thing you know the breed is starting to sneak up in size.

If when we all turned up to a show and we had a size check in, then you would see the numbers of whippets fall to start with then the numbers would rise as we kept to the standard. In my 12 years of showing I have never had any of my whippets measured on the table, so to me that's where the problem lies. If you can't show whippets over the standard then no over sized whippets win.

Make it a requirement to get your stud papers for dogs and bitches with there height, if they are over the standard then no stud papers then big whippets can't be bred from.

In time this will help bring the size down.

 

[parnew]

To understand Breed type read the General Apperance of the Whippet standard. and the key words from this should be Symmerty of Outline (no shape = no whippet, Great elegance and grace of outline, Musculal development and powerful gait and all forms of exaggeration should be avioded.

Bitches as big as dogs 1.5 inches over the top limit 2.5 over the bottom limit, that sounds like exaggeration.

"I would choose a dog that was bigger that had all I was looking for over a smaller dog that didn't have the goods anyday!!"

Me too, its a hard call

We all need to work a lot harder on size world wide

 

[Ridgesetter]

Type, shape, soundness of body and temperament are most important and should, and generally do, get awarded even if the exhibit is above standard height.

Some breed standards have a disqualification for exhibits over the height standard but the whippet standard doesn't.

If you started to wicket all dogs and only dogs that met the standard were exhibited, I strongly believe you would lose type. You must NEVER select for one thing and one thing alone. :angry: It's no different to breeding only for colour.

Constantly, when discussing Dachshunds with judges who have officiated in countries where they are weighed before entering the ring (as there is a weight standard), invariably the comments are that the dogs are so thin just to meet the weight requirements. I've not met a judge that thinks it's a good thing.

Heights and weights have marginally increased and as stated previously, nutrition and welfare standards have improved. Our dogs are also living much longer than previously.

Standards were developed when many breeds were still performing a function. Having had RR's for over 33 years, there's no way you'd find an RR who met the weight standard and many are marginally over the height standard. 30 years ago we hunted our dogs on feral pigs and interestingly, our dogs didn't eat for the first few days. They needed to drop weight to be agile and able to perform. After a hunt, the dogs looked very ribby and lean and some would consider them undernourished, but they were extremely fit and muscular. Whippets racing and hunting rabbit in the field would be the same - much leaner and muscular than todays whippets who spend most of their time on the couch or in the bed (as they do in my place) Show greyhounds are quite well covered and smooth as against racing greyhounds. Labradors are much broader than their ancestors, coated breeds have much more coat than their functional ancestors. Life is constantly evolving and dogs, like people, aren't static but are constantly developing.

Yes, I've put up whippets that are taller than I would prefer however, when judging, one is supposed to look at the virtues of a dog and not fault judge.

Cheers

 

[Noise]

so what will happen say 10 or 20 years down the line - will the breed standard have to be changed - as it would be rather pointless having today's height standard, when there will probably only going to be a few dogs around who fit it. maybe have a standard whippet and a whippet grande? or not have any height restriction whatsoever?

if diet is a factor - how come the racing whippets seem to keep a small size? I can't think of any other breed where a male dog with the maximum height can still look positively small compared to quite a few in the same breed.

I do agree with what other people are saying - substance is more important than just being the right size, but if other breeds can have both, why is it not possible with whippet?

 

[Seraphina]

Lets face it; dog breeds are artificially created by us. Few thousands years ago they were wolves, we selectively bred them to get chihuahua and all the other shapes and sizes of dogs. All species evolve constantly, we cannot expect them to remain totally static, but our dogs will take the direction we choose, albeit sometimes unwittingly. There must be something inherently changeable in the canine genome, no other species have developed such a varieties, even though we also selectively bred them.

To say that the increase in size of our dogs is due to the kibble we basically abdicate our responsibility as the guardians of the breed.

I do not believe that marginally large dog should necessarily be excluded from breeding, but care must be taken to consider size when looking for prospective mates, and in the future not to double up on him/her.

Over the past few weeks I have ran into several of all breed judges I know from way back. They watched with me Whippet judging and all were shocked when i told them that my Claudia is 18 1/2". The fact is that huge dog handled by tall man may look fine, while a correct size dog handled by somebody short may look big. And of-course, if you get a whole class of large dogs with one correct size, the correct one will look out of place and therefore wrong.

In any case, we are not talking about choosing between perfect large dog and total disaster correct size dog; most of the time the choice is between 2 dogs, each with some faults.

And I really wonder about size and type; the large dogs are not just scaled up version of the smaller ones. Just this morning I looked at some photos of Whippets with nothing else in the photo but grass, if I did not know they are Whippets I would have thought they were greyhounds - from their heads, long bodies and almost straight backs.

 

[seaspot_run]

Of course the height increases are due to breeder selection, else the toy breeds would no longer be "toy".

Toy breed dogs, with few exceptions, are still small as desired because the breeders have decided that if they are over a certain limit, they aren't good enough to win no matter what else is right with them. So, there's no incentive to breed for larger size when it won't help you do better in competition. Smaller size is selected for, just as substance and size is sought in the more massive, larger breeds.

We do have large Whippets here in the US compared to what is considered acceptable elsewhere. However, we also have a height disqualification. Dogs over it are measured out and can't compete in showing, lure coursing, or straight track racing. This means that the breeders have every incentive to keep our size with the upper limit specified by the standard. Within that range, the dogs who tend towards the upper limit are often more competitive (this would mostly be the males), but there are many competitive Whippets who would not look out of place in any international ring and do well enough here at a smaller, but still acceptable size. We are able to have mostly litters with all in-size Whippets.

17.5 and 18.5" seems to me to be a pipe dream, but there is no reason if breeders elsewhere wanted to get serious about keeping their size below a certain level they couldn't put an upper limit on it. Ours may be too high, but at least we have found consensus and are working within a given range and are all on the same page with that. Sure, the outstanding dog which is a little over may still be used by clever breeders, but the point is, you'd know anything competing successfully in the ring would be within size and that eliminates a lot of controversy. I find a height DQ a very reasonable restriction on a breed which is considered to have a certain size range as a component of breed type. In our case, we do not want anything that could be mistaken for a big Italian Greyhound or a small greyhound.

Karen