Help ... Please Dogs Fighting

[~Annie~]

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We are having a problem with Tolly and are having to think the unthinkable and consider rehoming him before somedog gets hurt, unless we can sort things with help from our K9 friends )

Our pack of 4 boys consists of

Wilbur, 4 year old mini wire dachsie, very shy and retiring, epileptic, neutered aged 1+

Tolly, 2 1/4 year old mini wire dachsie, can be fearful around strange people and dogs but also pretty bolshie, neutered aged 1+

Finn, 20mth old whippet, bouncy but not particularly assertive, entire

Tyg, 6mth old whippet, very bouncy, potential top dog, entire

We've lost two old guys in the last 2 years so the pack has seen a fair few changes. All the dogs are and always have been allowed on the sofas but only with permission. They aren't indulged - we practise tough love around here - but they are adored and they know it. Finn is my favourite though and although I try to hide it I wonder if Tolly knows that.

In the last four months, so sort of since Digby our previous top dog died, Tolly has become increasingly aggressive towards Finn. Almost anything Finn does can set him off. Finn might start a rough game with Tyg, or approach the sofa when Tolly is sitting on it, or pick up a chew ... and Tolly flies at him growling and/or barking and starts trying to pick a fight. Finn turns away, making it clear that he doesn't want trouble, and Tolly follows him and keeps putting himself in front of Finn and acting threateningly, hackles up on occasion, as if he's trying to pick a fight. However often Finn turns away Tolly follows. Once or twice when cornered Finn has fought back but Tolly is always the instigator (although Finn does play ambush him sometimes out on walks, but that looks and sounds totally different and Tolly seems not to mind). We started out leaving them to sort it for themselves but lately we've had to intervene, and this can happen again and again through the day. That said any attempt to remove Tolly from the situation makes him worse. He really is spoiling for a fight. I suspect what Tolly really needs is a major ding dong with Finn to decide who's boss but it would be MAJOR and I can't allow that and Finn doesn't want it.

Tolly is a very wired mini wire, very tense, always on the alert, goes off like a rocket when a leaf drops a mile away ... so he's got issues anyway. But poor Finn is really beginning to suffer and I think it's only time before we're looking at significant injuries rather than the few minor nips he's received so far. As it is I daren't leave them alone together, even for five minutes.

I won't list all the things we've tried to date- all sorts, some on the recommendation of a professional behaviourist, some suggested by our vet - as I would really like to hear of anything and everything others think we could do, so please suggest away.

Hoping you can help because I really don't want to be posting in a few weeks asking for help to rehome Tolly, that would be heartbreaking.

Annie

 

[jinnyfizz]

What an extremely difficult situation to find yourself in

I do sympathise as I have a similar situation with my bitch pack, although the "problem child" doesn't actually seek out confrontation she is likely to explode into aggression when playing and has inflicted injuries on two of my whippet girls which required stitching

I am now training her to wear a muzzle so that she is unable to cause damage whilst playing or free running, although I dislike doing it I believe it will save a potentially upsetting situation arising in the future :thumbsup:

I do wish you luck in finding a solution to the problem :luck: :luck: as it would be so sad to have to rehome Tolly

 

[annie2]

Hi

I so sorry to hear of troubles in the pack- I'm sure ones with experience will give advice. Hope a solution is found soon.

Best wishes

Anne

 

[affieluver]

aww! annie what a dilemma you have from what you have written it doesnt sound to me like tolly is an aggressive chap more scared and he has seen the lose of digby i was having similar problems with angel recently and my cat i sought help on here and was advised that she had altered her behaviour as she felt i needed looking after when daisy went due to my own grief previously she did mother daisy probably toom much it was so bad i thought max would have to be rehomed

i have changed my atttitude and told her no firmly when she shew any signs of aggresion and touch wood she is ok i think maybe you need to change digbys roll in the pack as from what i read he possibly seems confused i might be wrong sorry to ramble but im useless at saying what i mean i do hope you sort something out annie as i know how much you love your boys :luck: :luck: :luck:

 

[kirsty]

Sorry to hear about your problems.

When I was growing up we had four Longhaired Dachsie's and two of them were a MAJOR nightmare.

They would have fought till the death! They had to be seperated at all times. Once Jamie the silver dapple got a hold of muffins neck and would not let go, it took 15 mins to seperate them and by that time Muffin had a gaping hole in his neck and ended up in the vet's for a fortnight. It was a complete nightmare as they had to be kept in seperate rooms away from each other and constantly swapped around. e.g in the bedroom on their own for a couple of hours and swapped through to the sitting room etc. The other two Sandy and Tammy were really submissive so Tammy could be kept with Muffin and Sandy could be kept with Jamie but as I say if Jamie and Muffin got together or even smelt each other under the door it was hell. We lived like that for years of course it did not help matters that my dad would not get any nuetered, the vet thought it might have helped. He also suggested either rehoming Jamie or Muffin but my parents wouldn't hear of it! The last one Jamie passed away about 7 years ago aged 23.

Good Luck in trying to find a solution.

 

[FeeFee]

I sympathise, it must be a nightmare when two loved dogs just won't get on. Four young male dogs together without a bossy bitch to keep them in order is probably pushing things anyway if any of them are strong characters, and a mixture of neutered and unneutered males won't help. I know others will disagree, but I'd have all of them neutered to take any hormones out of the equation and change group dynamic.

Otherwise try keeping a short house lead on Tolly and at the first sign of aggression calmly and quietly lead him off for 'time out' somewhere for a few minutes, and repeat this (endlessly....) and consistently. When they are together with no aggression give lots of mutual praise/treats. Set things up for Tolly so that good things happen, and only happen, when he's with Finn and behaving well. Bad behaviour means instant banishment and withdrawal of attention for a short time.

Good luck, anyway, I hope you will get some good advice here and manage to find a way through this :luck:

 

[Nicola]

I wish I had some words of wisdom for you. Tolly captured my heart on the Whippet Forum; it's shame to hear he has these issues with Fyn.

Stan can be very nervous too; he's the type that jumps at a leaf too, squares upto other dogs all the time, ready to pick a fight, but luckily he has a strong bond with Fred and they both get on very well (too well almost). I tried to introduce another whippet to the pack a few years back and it really upset the status quo, and it never really settled down, so the pup had to go back to his breeder after a few months. It's so stressful, I do sympathise.

 

[TC]

Sorry to hear you're having problems I'm up to my eyes in it at work this afternoon but will try and post some ideas later on.

TCx

 

[hely]

Oh Annie, what a nightmare for you

Im sorry i cant offer any advice, but i really hope you get things sorted

Helen xxxxx

 

[jok]

Sorry you've been having some issues Annie, i've only just seen this post after Rachel mentioned it to me.

We're very lucky as ours get on very well. I do think that having a strong pack leader is the most important thing for a harmonious group - and of course that should be YOU. Although you do say that you are strict.

We only had one issue and that was with Logan behaving very domineering and bullying towards Alfie. It does sound very similar to how your two are behaving. As Logan lived with Rachel and Alfie with my parents, the situation wasn't stamped on to start with. I am the overall leader of the pack, being stricter and more disciplined than both Rachel and my parents - and all the dogs know this. I decided this situation needed taking hold of because it had the potential to get out of hand and it was becoming unenjoyable having all the dogs together.

When Logan demonstrated his undesirable behaviour, i grabbed hold of him by his collar and then held him down to the floor by his neck saying 'no' very firmly. He was completely lay on the floor and powerless, i was the one in charge. I could see that he thought about retaliating against me for a split second but decided against it. I had to do it again once more that day. Rather miraculously the undesirable behaviour ceased - they now get on very well. I really do think it had to be me to do this. My mum doesn't command much respect from the dogs and im sure this wouldn't have worked if she'd have done it.

Worth a try? Make sure that he knows that no way will you tolerate this behaviour and that you are the one in charge.

 

[peppermint lady]

so sorry your running into problems :unsure: , it really sets you on edge im sure

since Roma, the lurcher i took in arrived in October, ive had to enforce myself as pack leader with Smudge (16months) who will pick at Roma for a reaction, usually at dinner time when im dishing up, Smudge can turn rather vile with Roma, ive also had other dominance problems with smudge (she wont move for my daughter to sit down and will growl at her, she even growled at me once so then i knew id let it get to far)....i have changed a few things at home and so far it seems to be making a difference...

when smudge gets out of hand i will exercise putting her on her side untill she submits, to me and the other dogs, when she sits in my seat on the sofa, il make a point of getting her off even if im not going to sit down, i now only have to look at her in my seat and she will move straight away, this i think shows she has respect for me, i also enforce this when my daughter wants to sit down.

i mostly feed her last, to show her shes not top of the pile! if she growls when she has a toy or bone i will go and claim it as mine.

dont get me wrong she is a much loved girl, and gets lots of love and attention, but by putting her in her place makes for a better home life for us all, i never leave Roma and Smudge loose together if im not around (just incase)

i hope as they both get older, they will call a truce 95% of the time we all live in harmony, so its not a problem, i just keep her in check and all is fine :thumbsup:

fingers crossed all goes well with your gang, but if you have tried everything, then sometimes for the good of all the dogs difficult choices have to be made!

good luck :luck:

 

[FeeFee]

Blimey, I'm sorry to disagree with the two last posters, but I would definitely not recommend you do an alpha roll on your dog or any variation of forcibly holding him down into a submissive position. It really isn't recommended by any current behaviourists and I could write a whole essay on why it isn't a good idea and why the whole theory of doing it in the first place has been discredited (it is based on very dodgy observations on captive wolves - google Monks of Skete who originally 'invented' the alpha roll technique and who now admit it isn't a valid training technique )

Yes, you need to show leadership and you need to have status with your dogs. That is completely different from 'dominance' which in itself is a pretty dodgy concept with dogs. Again, whole books have been written about this, but you are likely to end up with a very fearful confused dog - if you don't actually get bitten yourself. He will not relate you pinning him down and terrifying him to his behaviour towards another dog.

Leadership and status are much better achieved by training - get a high level of obedience, lots of commands, make him sit for snacks and for food, give attention and affection only when he has earned it by doing something you ask of him, even if it is just a simple 'sit' or 'down'. Don't tolerate any bad behaviour and 'punish' it by a withdrawal of your attention (which is the thing dogs most crave) if necessary enforced with a short time out in the hallway or in a room by himself. If he's removed from where he wants to be every time he shows the slightest bit of aggression to your other dog, and only allowed to be in the same room as you when he is behaving well, and if this is done consistently he will get the message.

 

[Hula]

Blimey, I'm sorry to disagree with the two last posters, but I would definitely not recommend you do an alpha roll on your dog or any variation of forcibly holding him down into a submissive position. It really isn't recommended by any current behaviourists and I could write a whole essay on why it isn't a good idea and why the whole theory of doing it in the first place has been discredited (it is based on very dodgy observations on captive wolves - google Monks of Skete who originally 'invented' the alpha roll technique and who now admit it isn't a valid training technique )
Yes, you need to show leadership and you need to have status with your dogs. That is completely different from 'dominance' which in itself is a pretty dodgy concept with dogs. Again, whole books have been written about this, but you are likely to end up with a very fearful confused dog - if you don't actually get bitten yourself. He will not relate you pinning him down and terrifying him to his behaviour towards another dog.

Leadership and status are much better achieved by training - get a high level of obedience, lots of commands, make him sit for snacks and for food, give attention and affection only when he has earned it by doing something you ask of him, even if it is just a simple 'sit' or 'down'. Don't tolerate any bad behaviour and 'punish' it by a withdrawal of your attention (which is the thing dogs most crave) if necessary enforced with a short time out in the hallway or in a room by himself. If he's removed from where he wants to be every time he shows the slightest bit of aggression to your other dog, and only allowed to be in the same room as you when he is behaving well, and if this is done consistently he will get the message.

I totally agree with this post . I certainly would not rcommend forcibly holding down any dog much less a bolshie dachshund . This may work with some dogs although I wouldn't do it or recommend it but different breeds need different treatment and having had two dachshunds , one for 13 years and one for 14 years if anything it would make them worse .

Leadership is about much more than brute force , dogs are much more attuned to body language than we are and that is what will acheive results .

 

[jinnyfizz]

Just a bit of info from the Jinnyfizz gang .............

We have had a few issues lately centering around who is going to be "top bitch". No amount of verbal warning, training or alternative amusement has defrayed the situation until I got a water pistol (w00t)

AMAZING RESULTS ........... one well-aimed squirt at the precise moment of unwanted behaviour and the perpetrator of the crime looks sheepishly around and desists from their actions!

It has changed our household around in the space of 3 days - why not give it a try, you have nothing to lose and it is a harmless method of discipline which reinforces your own status as pack leader :thumbsup:

 

[jok]

Like anything it depends on the actual dog and only those that live with them and can judge their termperament and the way they tick, will know whether somethings suitable or not.

I do not regret what i did with Logan and it worked. I would do the same again if i thought it necessary. He was very wilful, far too big for his boots and as i said, it worked very well. It is not a case of 'terrifying' him, i certainly did not do that - i am not cruel! He most certainly knew why it was done too, because the unwanted behaviour stopped. I would not employ the same tactic on Ruby for example (not that she would ever need it because she's a real love), because she is far more sensitive and i don't think it would be right and she would be frightened.

Water pistols - my dad used this tactic on Frankie when he spent a few weeks with them because he has a bad habit of barking at other dogs on walks. It's a friendly sort of thing to try and get them to chase him but it's not fun and often could scare smaller dogs. My dad said it worked well.

 

[rls22]

Blimey, I'm sorry to disagree with the two last posters, but I would definitely not recommend you do an alpha roll on your dog or any variation of forcibly holding him down into a submissive position. It really isn't recommended by any current behaviourists and I could write a whole essay on why it isn't a good idea and why the whole theory of doing it in the first place has been discredited (it is based on very dodgy observations on captive wolves - google Monks of Skete who originally 'invented' the alpha roll technique and who now admit it isn't a valid training technique )
Yes, you need to show leadership and you need to have status with your dogs. That is completely different from 'dominance' which in itself is a pretty dodgy concept with dogs. Again, whole books have been written about this, but you are likely to end up with a very fearful confused dog - if you don't actually get bitten yourself. He will not relate you pinning him down and terrifying him to his behaviour towards another dog.

Leadership and status are much better achieved by training - get a high level of obedience, lots of commands, make him sit for snacks and for food, give attention and affection only when he has earned it by doing something you ask of him, even if it is just a simple 'sit' or 'down'. Don't tolerate any bad behaviour and 'punish' it by a withdrawal of your attention (which is the thing dogs most crave) if necessary enforced with a short time out in the hallway or in a room by himself. If he's removed from where he wants to be every time he shows the slightest bit of aggression to your other dog, and only allowed to be in the same room as you when he is behaving well, and if this is done consistently he will get the message.

I totally agree with this post . I certainly would not rcommend forcibly holding down any dog much less a bolshie dachshund . This may work with some dogs although I wouldn't do it or recommend it but different breeds need different treatment and having had two dachshunds , one for 13 years and one for 14 years if anything it would make them worse .

Leadership is about much more than brute force , dogs are much more attuned to body language than we are and that is what will acheive results .

As Logan's Mum, this was absolutely the only way of getting through to him. He is a very head strong wilful dog who was becoming very domineering toward Alfie. Constant snapping, pinning him down, not letting him move without getting up to snap at him. Logan is a wonderful dog, loving affectionate with a fantastic temperament - he just got into an awful habit with Alfie. It certainly worked with him - he has never done it again and they are now good mates.

Everyone knows their own dogs, their temperaments and what works for them - sometimes taking more forcible action is absolutely necessary for a happy pack. I would employ the method Jo used on Logan again in an instant, if he were ever to start the same behaviour again towards another dog. As I know that the methods mentioned above would have absoutely zero effect on him and would have made for one very unhappy dog. A short sharp reminder of his position in the pack was without doubt the best course of action.

I should also add that having spent years working with Guide Dogs - with at times up to 7 or 8 young dogs in an office, these sort of problems were frequently encountered and this was one of the methods that we would use in the very pushy and dominant dogs and we almost always had a happy and harmonious pack of varied breeds. As Jo says, it was a case of knowing the individual dogs and the best way to deal with their issues. There is no one size fits all unfortunately, if only it were that easy.

 

[June Jonigk]

I agree with the previous posters who say to hold the dog down to the floor - it's not brute force, it is stopping the dog from getting up and moving, and is exactly what the mother dog does to her pups to teach them what is wrong, or put them in their place. Another good thing is mouth holding - again exactly what a bitch would do with her pups too. I worked for a vet who specialised in behaviour problems, and this is what he recommended, especially if the aggression is towards the humans in the pack. The other thing he would recommend would be to neuter the lower ranking of the two dogs that were falling out in the pack - then the higher ranking dog does not feel it poses a threat anymore. I know that is not always the desired outcome if the dog is being shown though.

I had two bitches who fought. Once the younger of the two had had pups, and we didn't want to breed from her again, I had her spayed (also because I kept a dog from the litter). I don't know if it was because of being spayed, or because of having pups, but the two never fought again.

Dog behaviour is a very interesting thing, but I think most bad behaviour occurs when the owner is not a clear pack leader. Easily done of course because we all like to spoil our dogs. I have been too soft with mine in the past, and I'm probably guilt of it now too, but luckily things are harmonious in our household - I wouldn't hesitate to enforce my role as pack leader should it become necessary.

 

[jayp]

I agree with the last posters too, its always worked for me with no distress to the dog, but as has been said you have to know the dog, it wouldnt suit all jan

 

[kita]

Two interesting articles on the Alpha Roll:

http://www.4pawsu.com/alpharoll.pdf

http://www.4pawsu.com/dominancestatement.pdf

Adult dogs/wolves only ever pin another dog/wolf when they are going to kill it.

A wolf will roll on its back volutarily in front of another wolf to show submission, but it is never forceably held down.

It has been proved in recent studies of dogs (Herron et al. 2008) that this sort of pinning only heightens aggression, either to the human involved or redirected aggression at other dogs/animals (see second article, third page).

Once you start to use aggression and evoke 'pack leadership' you have an ongoing battle with your dogs and have to keep it going ALL the time.

 

[rls22]

Two interesting articles on the Alpha Roll:
http://www.4pawsu.com/alpharoll.pdf

http://www.4pawsu.com/dominancestatement.pdf

Adult dogs/wolves only ever pin another dog/wolf when they are going to kill it.

A wolf will roll on its back volutarily in front of another wolf to show submission, but it is never forceably held down.

It has been proved in recent studies of dogs (Herron et al. 2008) that this sort of pinning only heightens aggression, either to the human involved or redirected aggression at other dogs/animals (see second article, third page).

Once you start to use aggression and evoke 'pack leadership' you have an ongoing battle with your dogs and have to keep it going ALL the time.

I'm sorry, but that is rubbish about them only pinning another dog down when they are going to kill it!!!! Have you never seen dogs playing?

And the second point is clearly not the case either- as we have never had to do this again with out pack, over 12 months later.

As has been said by several times, there is no hard and fast rule - all dogs are different and different methods work for different dogs.