How Big Is Your Whippet?

[Seraphina]

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Of course we dont want whippets to get any bigger  (w00t)   , and dont advocate the idea that we do . I sure I can honestley say , that NOBODY breeds for a `big ` whippet .

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Well, but they are getting bigger. Unless we as breeders consciously try to reverse this trend Whippets will be getting bigger and bigger. One breeder recently told me that there is no point keeping a bitch unless she is OVER 19 1/2" because it is hard to win with smaller ones.

 

[wild whippies]

Out of curiosity, does anyone think this is just a trend? When my Mum was showing Dobes over a 20 year period there was phases where larger dogs where winning but she stook it out and strived to keep her dogs within the breed standard and was rewarded justly. Do you think it will pass with time or do you think that the dogs winning are actually the finest of specimens and just so happen to be taller?

 

[mikadene]

I have been kinda embarressed at times when I have been pulled out and know in my heart my dog didn't deserve it. It just so happened I hve entered under judges that like to feather their own nest

If you knew this was why they were judging why did u enter under them??

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I don't know how to answer this one. I didn't know the judge was going to do what she did until she actually did it. Does that make sence. I thought i would get a good going over , but when I saw what was in the ring with me I knew I should have got about 3rd or 4th, but not 1st. If I had have known a favour was being done I would havenot entered. I have never given anyone a favour . What i see in the ring is what I judge without favour or malice.

regards

Mike

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I have judged Whippets along with Border Collies and mos o the working breeds, and Pastoral breeds as well. Witut sorting my records out and naming names it has been a while since I did Whippets but I don't think I will judge them again. I have enough trouble just showing them lol. The health is not what it should be.

Regards Mike

Have you ever judged whippets? and if so where . when and who did you put up ? :cheers:

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[dawn]

One breeder recently told me that there is no point keeping a bitch unless she is OVER 19 1/2" because it is hard to win with smaller ones.

We prefer the smaller bitches and will keep what WE like regardeless of whether that is the type that is winning.

Our beloved 'That' was just the type we love, small petite and very feminine, her daughter Hari is very similar to her mum although slightly taller (though still within the breed standard)

'Thats' first litter produced an absolutley stunning bitch who we caller 'Tuther', who measured just 17 1/2" and did look minute in the ring, she was below the lower level of our uk standard. She looked a good 2" smaller that the rest in the ring.

So where you have a ring full of larger dogs with only one or two who are smaller, a novice judge and even some all-rounder's could easily fall into the trap of seeing the smaller ones as being the wrong size, as the larger ones are in the majority - therfore they must be the right size.

 

[mikadene]

Of course we dont want whippets to get any bigger  (w00t)   , and dont advocate the idea that we do . I sure I can honestley say , that NOBODY breeds for a `big ` whippet .

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Hi Jax,

Can i throw in another suggestion into the discussion on hy are Whippets getting so big. Have you thought of Hybrid Vigor. This can and does have an effect on one's breeding program, and one which we all have to keep an eye on or we know what the problems can be.

Regards and Merry Christmas

Mike

 

[dawn]

Hybrid Vigor

Pedigree whippets are pure bred not hybrid.

I know that they orignated from a cross but surely afer all this many generations any problems would can outed themselves many many years ago!!!

 

[Lakey]

In nature, natural selection determins the developing size shape of all animals.

In the dog breeding world its the actual breeder who is resposable for selection of

dog to bitch

So if the whippet has got bigger and as we can see they have and breeders say

they dont try to breed a bigger whippet, then

WHY HAVE THEY GOT SO BIG THEN

Lets stop kidding here the show whippet must have been delibratly breed for a

bigger type, just the same as the racing whippet has been breed to keep a smaller type

Im sorry if this offends,

But those of you out there who say this isnt the case at all must be living in

CLOUD COOKOO LAND

 

[wild whippies]

Lets stop kidding here the show whippet must have been delibratly breed for a bigger type

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But why? I have no experience of showing whippets but even I can see that if an individual was deliberately breeding dogs larger than the breed standard for that purpose alone surely they'd start getting thrown out the ring under experienced breed judges?

Is it not possible that it's just incidental? Could it not be that the pick of litter selected happens to end up being a larger dog but of perfect formation? An experienced show breeder usually had a good eye for spotting the stunner of the litter but height can be unpredictable and I'd certainly prefer the owner to show the dog rather than rehome and possibly breed another litter?

I also think Dawn makes a strong point about novice judges not reading up on their breed standards too.

 

[Lakey]

Lets stop kidding here the show whippet must have been delibratly breed for a bigger type

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But why? I have no experience of showing whippets but even I can see that if an individual was deliberately breeding dogs larger than the breed standard for that purpose alone surely they'd start getting thrown out the ring under experienced breed judges?

Is it not possible that it's just incidental? Could it not be that the pick of litter selected happens to end up being a larger dog but of perfect formation? An experienced show breeder usually had a good eye for spotting the stunner of the litter but height can be unpredictable and I'd certainly prefer the owner to show the dog rather than rehome and possibly breed another litter?

I also think Dawn makes a strong point about novice judges not reading up on their breed standards too.

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As it has has been pointed out, a judge can only judge the dogs in front of them.

As for being thrown out of the ring, again it has been pointed out that the whippet has no disqualifing points

So the judge may have to make the best of a bad lot, even if its 4 inch over standard (im not saying that all dogs are bad trying to give an example)

Not an ideal situation for the future of the show whippet

 

[mikadene]

Hybrid Vigor

Pedigree whippets are pure bred not hybrid.

I know that they orignated from a cross but surely afer all this many generations any problems would can outed themselves many many years ago!!!

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Hi Dawn,

I think you have jumped onto the wrong band wagon, Hybrid Vigor is a term used to descibe a problem or condition ,when Line breeding to it's extreme is undertaken. It dosn't mean they are mongrels, If one keeps going into the same lines time and time again, then there comes a point when the siblings suddenly all take on the same Characteristics, and they grow in size bigger than the rest of the line. This will go on for several generations and suddenly the balloon goes up in the air and one starts breeding weak wrecklings. Go out again to a non related dog and things come back to normal. This practice is used in breeding cattle and most other pure bred animals.

Regards

Mike

 

[dawn]

Hybrid Vigor

Pedigree whippets are pure bred not hybrid.

I know that they orignated from a cross but surely afer all this many generations any problems would can outed themselves many many years ago!!!

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Hi Dawn,

I think you have jumped onto the wrong band wagon, Hybrid Vigor is a term used to descibe a problem or condition ,when Line breeding to it's extreme is undertaken. It dosn't mean they are mongrels, If one keeps going into the same lines time and time again, then there comes a point when the siblings suddenly all take on the same Characteristics, and they grow in size bigger than the rest of the line. This will go on for several generations and suddenly the balloon goes up in the air and one starts breeding weak wrecklings. Go out again to a non related dog and things come back to normal. This practice is used in breeding cattle and most other pure bred animals.

Regards

Mike

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Brian Plummer makes an interesting point in one of his books talking about a breeder of show rabbits. This chap won quite regularly using a cross between two different breeds of rabbit. A rabbit was bred specifically for A show and potted afterwards. So yes this could be seen as 'hybrid vigor' but does not do a lot for the individual rabbit

What you seem to be implying is that we should linebreed with an occasional outcross which is exactly what our current youngsters are. If you study pedigrees you will see that often the top winning dogs (all breeds) are F1 outcrosses but they oftimes fail to pass on the 'winning streak' to their offspring.

 

[mikadene]

Hybrid Vigor

Pedigree whippets are pure bred not hybrid.

I know that they orignated from a cross but surely afer all this many generations any problems would can outed themselves many many years ago!!!

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​

Hi Dawn,

I think you have jumped onto the wrong band wagon, Hybrid Vigor is a term used to descibe a problem or condition ,when Line breeding to it's extreme is undertaken. It dosn't mean they are mongrels, If one keeps going into the same lines time and time again, then there comes a point when the siblings suddenly all take on the same Characteristics, and they grow in size bigger than the rest of the line. This will go on for several generations and suddenly the balloon goes up in the air and one starts breeding weak wrecklings. Go out again to a non related dog and things come back to normal. This practice is used in breeding cattle and most other pure bred animals.

Regards

Mike

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Brian Plummer makes an interesting point in one of his books talking about a breeder of show rabbits. This chap won quite regularly using a cross between two different breeds of rabbit. A rabbit was bred specifically for A show and potted afterwards. So yes this could be seen as 'hybrid vigor' but does not do a lot for the individual rabbit

What you seem to be implying is that we should linebreed with an occasional outcross which is exactly what our current youngsters are. If you study pedigrees you will see that often the top winning dogs (all breeds) are F1 outcrosses but they oftimes fail to pass on the 'winning streak' to their offspring.

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Hi Dawn,

Yep you are right in your thinking, I have line bred for years but the best of all that I bred was a complete outcross. I am still trying to breed back to him and regain his qualities. After all that's what we all strive to accomplish. A quality litter that is equal and as close to the standard as one can achieve. Line breeding is a very handy tool to have at our disposal but in the hands of people that have little knowledge on the subect can be disastrous. I have also DNA'd my lot in an attempt to satisfy others that what is in the Pedigree is what has been mated. I am trying to mate a grand-daughter of my man to his direct son. The last mating was a miss. The son is 10 yrs old so may not be as fertile as he should ( I know how he feels he he ). The bitch is 5 yrs old. This great dog was the 1st outcross in both lines. If I breed enough back to him That hybid Vigor will return. It will take a couple of generations, but will with luck return. That is the small bit of the equation that no one can determine and that is LUCK. Wish I had a sack full of it lol. This could be why we are getting bigger specimens, Line breeding to the best quality dogs and the siblings get bigger. A sudden outcross produces a Stunning litter. I have advocated for many years that to breed well one has to linebreed with occasional outcrossing. I try not to inbreed as this is very dangerous and will test your lines for faults. I did it once and the litter was just fantastic with no poblems since.

Mike

 

[dessie]

Sometime ago Ricky at 19 1/2" was considered tall, nowadays there are 22' Whippets.  I would like to ask Jax, Dessie and others, who do not consider the increase in size a problem, if they think it is OK for this trend to continue?  And are they be quite happy with the prospect that  in near future we may see 23', and 25" and maybe even 26" Whippets in the ring?

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Well, all I can answer on that is that I like the size/bone that I have on my Whippetsat home and will continue to breed to that. My beloved Dessie Whippet was 19" tall and silly old black dog, Dante, I know for a fact is 21.5" because so many people over the years have measured him as they all used to say "Shame he is so big". So he is my yardstick and I shall miss him when he is gone! The other 5 of my boys are all at least 1" smaller than Dante but vary in shape and build, which can also be misleading, as can colour. Bertha I have never measured but I suspect is the same as DW because she fits all Dessie's old clothes. Lochsong, Lochangel and Angel's Venture are all well within standard (Angel being the smallest at around 18.25") ........... in fact so will Bertha be within standard once the revised standard is released. So no I do not consider my own dogs big but when you see them compared to some scrawny little racing bred dogs which, to me, look like something out of Belsen and are too small (there is such a thing as too small as well as too big!!), I know which I prefer!!

I take the breed standard into consideration when I am breeding but I stand by my original statement that I think conformation and movement comes before anything else, including height.

Every breed has a standard and most have a height guide incorporated into them but I cannot think of another breed that is SO obsessed about height as Whippeteers are.

 

[SallyC]

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..... but to assess movement, the dog does need to walk in a straight line , without pulling sideways .....

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It's a shame that judges don't get to see a whippet move at top speed, which is after all what they were bred for. The bigger whippets just look less whippety at the gallop, more like greyhounds in fact. "Movement" surely involves more than just being able to walk straight :- "

 

[Seraphina]

Hybrid Vigor occures if you cross two highly inbred but unrelated strains. it very useful in agricultur to drasticaly increase yields of grain and even livestock. But as after the Hybrid Vigour it is all down the hill, it is not so useful in breeding dogs. The Hybrid Vigour does not result into ever increasing size.

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

[ So no I do not consider my own dogs big but when you see them compared to some scrawny little racing bred dogs which, to me, look like something out of Belsen and are too small (there is such a thing as too small as well as too big!!), I know which I prefer!!

I take the breed standard into consideration when I am breeding but I stand by my original statement that I think conformation and movement comes before anything else, including height.

Every breed has a standard and most have a height guide incorporated into them but I cannot think of another breed that is SO obsessed about height as Whippeteers are.

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Nice just 'bout says it all BTW I have a 17.5" bitch you can have Lakey.

Terry Smith

 

[chelynnah]

But I would hate to see automatic disqualification for dogs a fraction outside the top end measurement.  Imagain a near perfect specimen (in your eyes of course) has to be thrown out of the ring cos it is just over the top measurement - and then the  best remaining dog in the ring still has a lot of bad faults - but it is the right size!  Crazy!

That's part of why the American Standard states that more than 1/2 inch over or under shall disqualify - it gives a little bit of room.

I'm heading over to Boston this year to do the Whippet National and I'm very interested to see the differences. I know there is definitely a difference in head shape, but I'm also interested in the differences in showing style as well as the whippets.

Wendy

 

[Lakey]

Nice just 'bout says it all BTW I have a 17.5" bitch you can have Lakey.

Not sure what BTW means and are you offering me a dog ?

 

[JAX]

Nice just 'bout says it all BTW I have a 17.5" bitch you can have Lakey.
Not sure what BTW means and are you offering me a dog ?

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By The Way

 

[petrezselyem]

Dawn:If you study pedigrees you will see that often the top winning dogs (all breeds) are F1 outcrosses but they oftimes fail to pass on the 'winning streak' to their offspring.

Absolutely right!