How Big Is Your Whippet?

[Vicky]

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          Just take a look at the K9 NoN ped section. It is full of cross bred dogs. To breed some Greyhound blood into Whippets, ( By the way they came from Gryhounds in the first Place), one needs to use a Whippet dog the smaller  the better and a smallish Greyhound.  Keep the ones you want to breed from and then use a Whippet male on your bitches again.

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I'm not being funny but any idiot could spot greyhound / non ped in a show whippet - most show peds i've seen are bigger all round than your average non ped anyway.

 

[beaker]

Hi Jax,

 

Just take a look at the K9 NoN ped section. It is full of cross bred dogs. To breed some Greyhound blood into Whippets, ( By the way they came from Gryhounds in the first Place), one needs to use a Whippet dog the smaller the better and a smallish Greyhound. Keep the ones you want to breed from and then use a Whippet male on your bitches again.

 

Now Pedigree's are only as honest as the person who is doing the breeding. I can remember a certain well know GSD breeder from Wales using a highly sought after dog at stud on many bitches in his kennels in Wales. It wasn't until he upset the wife that the truth came out that this stud dog has never left Germany. Many GSD's had to be re registered. It is a sad fact that there are some unscupulous folks out there. Mine are DNA'd. That at least shows that mine are bred with some ammount of Honesty.

Mike

why would anyone with show breds want to put a greyhound into their lines ?, it is not a case of putting a different sires name on papers it is a different breed, no one was suggesting that the breeder in wales had put a Terveren over their GSD.

if anyone did cross greys and whips they would not be able to show the prodgeny for many generations, would be altering not just the size but apearance of the dogs and lets face it unlike racing where apearance isn't everything it does matter in showing. crossing greys and whips might have some benefits (not many) for racing but it would not benifit show breds one bit, :wacko: anyone who set out to do this and hope to dupe the many breed experts in the ring would be deliberately and maliciously destroying a breed, why would anyone even want to do this?

 

[Seraphina]

I don't show any more, tryed it about 5 years ago for a couple of years. I was a new comer to showing, all I heard from people was you won't win anything until you served your appreticeship (got your face known), judged down at a latter show.

I now only walk and work my whippets.

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I am always amazed when newcomers expect to win. In dog show the novice has to compete against experienced handlers, some with 20-30 years of experience. It is not enough to have a quality dog, you need to train it well and learn to handle it to it's best advantage. If the judge cannot see the dog performing he/she cannot place it. Ringcraft classes help, but to be really successful you need to devote lot of time to practice.

And of-course, those people who have been showing their dogs every weekend for years and years do know most of the judges, but do they win because of that, or because of their handling skill ?

Nobody would get 3 tennis lessons and walk on a court thinking he can beat the top player.

 

[Seraphina]

why would anyone with show breds want to put a greyhound into their lines ?,

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I also cannot see ANY benefit from breeding a greyhound into a Whippet. It would be very obvious for generations. The Whippet size has increased gradually over the past 20 years or so.

 

[lalena]

i'm clueless with whippets/lurchers/gh's etc :b but i've read here that showing whippets are allround larger than racing whippets? and that their heads are more whippety?and i've also read here that heads are a growing concern, looking more like grey hounds? please dont shoot me here, but as an uninformed person, wouldnt crossing back to racing whippets help preserve head conformation and suspend, even reverse this 'growing' trend? i'm genuinely curious :unsure:

i mean racing whippets have better heads?

 

[petrezselyem]

i'm clueless with whippets/lurchers/gh's etc :b but i've read here that showing whippets are allround larger than racing whippets? and that their heads are more whippety?and i've also read here that heads are a growing concern, looking more like grey hounds? please dont shoot me here, but as an uninformed person, wouldnt crossing back to racing whippets help preserve head conformation and suspend, even reverse this 'growing' trend? i'm genuinely curious :unsure:
i mean racing whippets have better heads?

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Do You think that racing and show lines should be crossed?

No way.

Very different caracteristics, different selection respects....would be a big mistake, I think.

 

[bardmand]

I am always amazed when newcomers expect to win.  In dog show the novice has to compete against experienced handlers, some with 20-30 years of experience.  It is not enough to have a quality dog, you need to train it well and learn to handle it to it's best advantage.  If the judge cannot see the dog performing he/she cannot  place it.  Ringcraft classes help, but to be really successful you need to devote lot of time to practice.  And of-course, those people who have been showing their dogs every weekend for years and years do know most of the judges, but do they win because of that, or because of their handling skill ?

Nobody would  get 3 tennis lessons and walk on a court thinking he can beat the top player.

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I am sorry for if I sound blunt, but is it not a bit insulting to judges to suggest that they cannot assess the quality of a dog properly unless handled by a skilled professional?

 

[lalena]

i'm clueless with whippets/lurchers/gh's etc :b but i've read here that showing whippets are allround larger than racing whippets? and that their heads are more whippety?and i've also read here that heads are a growing concern, looking more like grey hounds? please dont shoot me here, but as an uninformed person, wouldnt crossing back to racing whippets help preserve head conformation and suspend, even reverse this 'growing' trend? i'm genuinely curious :unsure:
i mean racing whippets have better heads?

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Do You think that racing and show lines should be crossed?

No way.

Very different caracteristics, different selection respects....would be a big mistake, I think.

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just wondered, as surely both separate types have essential whippet traits that should be found in each whippet, not dependant on lines?. :thumbsup:

i know in staffords, if a flaw, for want of a better description, crops up breeders outcross to a completely different line. size problems do crop up, so they breed to smaller dogs.

 

[lalena]

I am always amazed when newcomers expect to win.  In dog show the novice has to compete against experienced handlers, some with 20-30 years of experience.  It is not enough to have a quality dog, you need to train it well and learn to handle it to it's best advantage.  If the judge cannot see the dog performing he/she cannot  place it.  Ringcraft classes help, but to be really successful you need to devote lot of time to practice.  And of-course, those people who have been showing their dogs every weekend for years and years do know most of the judges, but do they win because of that, or because of their handling skill ?

Nobody would  get 3 tennis lessons and walk on a court thinking he can beat the top player.

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I am sorry for if I sound blunt, but is it not a bit insulting to judges to suggest that they cannot assess the quality of a dog properly unless handled by a skilled professional?

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i've read a review of a dog show, and the judge said of one dog that the handlers obvious inexperience transfered to the dog, so movement was affected he did add that once the handler was more confidant, his dog could win

i dont get it either, myself :blink:

 

[Millie]

I don't show any more, tryed it about 5 years ago for a couple of years.

I was a new comer to showing, all I heard from people was you won't win anything until you served your appreticeship (got your face known), judged down at a latter show.

I now only walk and work my whippets.

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I am always amazed when newcomers expect to win. In dog show the novice has to compete against experienced handlers, some with 20-30 years of experience. It is not enough to have a quality dog, you need to train it well and learn to handle it to it's best advantage. If the judge cannot see the dog performing he/she cannot place it. Ringcraft classes help, but to be really successful you need to devote lot of time to practice.

And of-course, those people who have been showing their dogs every weekend for years and years do know most of the judges, but do they win because of that, or because of their handling skill ?

Nobody would get 3 tennis lessons and walk on a court thinking he can beat the top player.

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But what if the Newcomer to a breed, is an experianced handler, sucessfull for 20yrs in a differant breed, does this make them a novice to the new breed ?

 

[JAX]

I am always amazed when newcomers expect to win.  In dog show the novice has to compete against experienced handlers, some with 20-30 years of experience.  It is not enough to have a quality dog, you need to train it well and learn to handle it to it's best advantage.  If the judge cannot see the dog performing he/she cannot  place it.  Ringcraft classes help, but to be really successful you need to devote lot of time to practice.  And of-course, those people who have been showing their dogs every weekend for years and years do know most of the judges, but do they win because of that, or because of their handling skill ?

Nobody would  get 3 tennis lessons and walk on a court thinking he can beat the top player.

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I am sorry for if I sound blunt, but is it not a bit insulting to judges to suggest that they cannot assess the quality of a dog properly unless handled by a skilled professional?

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Its not just a case of being a `skilled `professinal`( We dont have ANY professional handlers in whippets in the UK ) It s a case of getting the best out of your dog, Complete novices usually over handled their dog , continually moving legs , hand over the dogs mouth not letting the dog relax and show itself to advantage etc , If a dog does have potential a good judge will see it , irrelavant of the handler , but to assees movement, the dog does need to walk in a straght line , with out pulling sideways . thats were novices usually fall down . they themselves lack confidnece which in turn passes to the dog

 

[JAX]

I don't show any more, tryed it about 5 years ago for a couple of years.

I was a new comer to showing, all I heard from people was you won't win anything until you served your appreticeship (got your face known), judged down at a latter show.

I now only walk and work my whippets.

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​

I am always amazed when newcomers expect to win. In dog show the novice has to compete against experienced handlers, some with 20-30 years of experience. It is not enough to have a quality dog, you need to train it well and learn to handle it to it's best advantage. If the judge cannot see the dog performing he/she cannot place it. Ringcraft classes help, but to be really successful you need to devote lot of time to practice.

And of-course, those people who have been showing their dogs every weekend for years and years do know most of the judges, but do they win because of that, or because of their handling skill ?

Nobody would get 3 tennis lessons and walk on a court thinking he can beat the top player.

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How right you are . MY OH wanted to show and had Montee just for that purpose . He came to ringcraft etc and the odd open show but then he wanted to handle him a Champ shows , Even at Open shows he only got lower placing s and my whippet friends asked why Phil was handling him ? :wacko: Its his dog I replied , and like most men didnt take critisium(sp) lightly . anyhow to cut a long story short ................. i I persuaded him to let me handle the dog at Windsor Champ show , ( under a non whippet judge ,,, so no favours done before you start :- " :lol: ) and Montee won a really good puppy class and best puppy dog too , Same dog as at the other shows , but better handling :- " :thumbsup: Phil never handled him again :cheers:

And newcomers DO win ,,,,,,,,, my first championship show ,,,,,,,many years ago . :- " Minor puppy dog , entry of 25 in class , against ALL the top people, Mary Lowe , Ann Knight , June Minns , Barbara Wilton -Clarke . To name but a few and who won ? ME !!! I might have been a novice , but id done all my ringcraft training but I had the best dog

 

[Lakey]

I don't show any more, tryed it about 5 years ago for a couple of years.

I was a new comer to showing, all I heard from people was you won't win anything until you served your appreticeship (got your face known), judged down at a latter show.

I now only walk and work my whippets.

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​

I am always amazed when newcomers expect to win. In dog show the novice has to compete against experienced handlers, some with 20-30 years of experience. It is not enough to have a quality dog, you need to train it well and learn to handle it to it's best advantage. If the judge cannot see the dog performing he/she cannot place it. Ringcraft classes help, but to be really successful you need to devote lot of time to practice.

And of-course, those people who have been showing their dogs every weekend for years and years do know most of the judges, but do they win because of that, or because of their handling skill ?

Nobody would get 3 tennis lessons and walk on a court thinking he can beat the top player.

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So its true it is the person on the other end of the lead after all :x

a true story

an experiencd person gets a dog from a top breeder and shows the dog. time after time the dog does nothing in the show ring. the upset person gets back in touch with the breeder, they offer to take back the dog and person does so (Cant have been very attached to it, i thought dogs were for life). breeder shows dog and wins.

WHO WON, DOG OR BREEDER ???????

New commers may expect to win, i didnt. i did do all the ring craft evenings and put alot of time and effort into preparing and handling my dog. I did have some sucess in open shows. but to be constantly told i wouldnt get very far in breed shows unless i bought from a top breeder, basicly if you cant beat then join them.

NOT ME !!

 

[Lakey]

Top breeders can breed whippets with good feet, ears, movement, legs, neck, etc etc to the breed standard. Why cant they keep them with in the breed standard hight limits?

Or dont they want too !!!

It would seem to me that hight has been disreguarded in the show whippets, why else would they have exceded the breed hight limit by such an an extent.

 

[noopy_101]

Top breeders can breed whippets with good feet, ears, movement, legs, neck, etc etc to the breed standard. Why cant they keep them with in the breed standard hight limits?

well said.........

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

Top breeders can breed whippets with good feet, ears, movement, legs, neck, etc etc to the breed standard. Why cant they keep them with in the breed standard hight limits?


Top breeders can also breed dogs with minor faults. What you see in the ring is the cream of their crop. Achieving a flawless dog is almost impossible.Must agree with Jax (never thought I would do) but a good sound big dog is preferable to a faulty little 'un.

Or dont they want too !!!

Maybe they are putting overall soundness over height.

It would seem to me that hight has been disreguarded in the show whippets, why else would they have exceded the breed hight limit by such an an extent.

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Don't think it's been disregarded! Some of the top lines are still close to the standards. Good specimens always look big just something in the way they move & stand. One top line is noted for being "big" but I was once invited to put a stick against the then leading lights of that kennel. None were more than an half inch over the standard (dogs & bitchs). Yet just looking at them I would have swore they were well oversize.

 

Terry Smith

 

[dawn]

It is so annoying when the same comments about which end of the lead gets placed.

I started showing (many years ago) as a total novice, with a 6/12 old puppy and within 15 months the dog won his first CC at Crufts. The dog became a champion with 4 cc's from 4 different judges. It certainly wasn't me who won.

As for handling there are some folk who can get a dog to behave 'just so' in the ring and it is their experience in handling and getting the best out of the dog that makes an awful lot of difference. A good handler can make a mediocre dog look good and a poor handler can make a great dog look reall poor.

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Another point from earlier on in this thread regarding dishonest breeders.

I know of whippets (not current lines) where the 'named sire' was not necesarrily the actual sire as all the whippets were kept together even when in season.

It is implicit that the word of the breeder / exhibitor / judge be their bond and that anyone giving deliberately false information, whether it is solely regarding the breeding of the dog or not, should not be allowed to breed, judge or exhibit dogs. It is not the dogs fault but the fault of the breeder / exhibitor / judge who is lying for their own benefit.

 

[Strike Whippets]

Top breeders can breed whippets with good feet, ears, movement, legs, neck, etc etc to the breed standard. Why cant they keep them with in the breed standard hight limits?

well said.........

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Yes must agree .....well said .......I have a show bred who is just over 18" and we got kicked out of the ring all the time as she looked so small ......Yet she fitted the breed standard heigh and was well constructed with sound, correct movement aswell ......she just looked so small compaired to the others .......so we we're penalised for being the "odd ones out" ........(BTW I had shown Greyhounds befor with a fair ammount of success so I wasn't a newbie)..........This is when we found our local Whippet racing club .......Joanna raced and loved it she fitted the height and weight allowence ........perfect

 

[Lakey]

Top breeders can breed whippets with good feet, ears, movement, legs, neck, etc etc to the breed standard. Why cant they keep them with in the breed standard hight limits?


Top breeders can also breed dogs with minor faults. What you see in the ring is the cream of their crop. Achieving a flawless dog is almost impossible.Must agree with Jax (never thought I would do) but a good sound big dog is preferable to a faulty little 'un.

Or dont they want too !!!

Maybe they are putting overall soundness over height.

It would seem to me that hight has been disreguarded in the show whippets, why else would they have exceded the breed hight limit by such an an extent.

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Don't think it's been disregarded! Some of the top lines are still close to the standards. Good specimens always look big just something in the way they move & stand. One top line is noted for being "big" but I was once invited to put a stick against the then leading lights of that kennel. None were more than an half inch over the standard (dogs & bitchs). Yet just looking at them I would have swore they were well oversize.

 

Terry Smith

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So if using the measuring stick on leading lights isnt a problem why is it rejected by most people in the show fraternity (spelling ).

Half an inch over the breed standard i would say is a minor fault and it would be difficult to put a good dog down just for that small excedience over the breed standard.

However at what point does being to big become a major fault or disqualifactation,, half, one, two, three inchs. Surely there has got to be a cut off point where a dog shouldnt be in the show ring. There is in America according to Patsy Gilmour in "Whippets Today"

Surely if a certain percentage over the breed standard ment disqualifaction, breeders would try harder to keep to the standard set by the KC.

After all this is supposed to be the benchmark for whippets in the show ring

 

[Seraphina]

I am sorry for if I sound blunt, but is it not a bit insulting to judges to suggest that they cannot assess the quality of a dog properly unless handled by a skilled professional?

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The judge has only so much time to assess a dog, if the handler cannot present the dog to it's advantage, the judge cannot see how good the dog is. You can have a dog with perfect front, but if this dog braces himself and pulls back he will look totally straight. The judge has to judge on what you present to him/her. And it is the handler's responsibility, not the judge's to make the dog look as good as possible.

Handling is a subtle craft, it takes a long time to master. Some years ago I was struggling with my beautiful but very head strong Borzoi, getting the odd challenge but not doing as well as he deserved. Then a friend's daughter, little girl of 14 (his back came to her armpit), took him in for me. he got some group wins and i could not believe how fantastic he looked. Interestingly after she handled him couple of times. he also performed for me. Maybe it was because I became more confident.

I have also done some good winning with my first Borzoi, when I was a total novice, but i had a very good bitch, excellent mover, and she was already well trained when i got her, so i did not need to do anything much.