Iggys

[Chien]

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My you k9 people are touchy - I was not criticising epupz. My personnal opinion is that it is a shame someone has let two lovely purebreeds be crossed ending up with expensive mongrels.But this is only my opinion, which I thought this forum was supposed to be about!

 

[tinabow]

if you read the ad it was not a planned litter which happened while her mother was looking after the dogs i know the full facts behind this and bye the way if i was going to buy a ped she would be top of list

well loved well cared for so cant see what all the fuss is about

and no i dont have iggies i have MONGRELS(whippetxgreyhounds)

i DONT normally reply on k9 but felt i had to

 

[kris]

300 pounds for a mongrel!is that what theyre charging for them now or are these 'special' mongrels? :- "

 

[OEH]

300 pounds for a mongrel!is that what theyre charging for them now or are these 'special' mongrels? :- "

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My personnal opinion is that it is a shame someone has let two lovely purebreeds be crossed ending up with expensive mongrels.

Having mainly lurchers myself I really object to this attitude. I think the excessive line breeding and inbreeding within pure breeds is far worse than the occasional healthy out cross.

I would have loved to have had one of this litter (unfortunately the bitch has already gone ) as I think the out cross will greatly improve the genetic health of the IG's (if the benefits could be fed back into the gene pool which they clearly won't be) as it is bred from such a small genetic pool in the first place.

It has been shown many times that 'island breeding', that is breeding with in a small population, is the route to many problems as it amplifies any underlying recessive faults. This is a true example of where hybrid vigour would become very obvious.

As far as the price goes it is quite beyond me why pedigree dogs should cost so much more than 'mongrels'. Are you really saying that my dogs are less valuable than yours because they didn't come with a bit of paper. Many lurcher lines have been very carefully bred for many generations to produce some of the fantastic dogs you see today, and the people creating them had a nice wide genetic pool to work with. My Josie is the result of a plan such as this. I have had for less than a year in which she has proved to be a fantastic show dog (she has twice qualified for the Champion of Champions at the Midland Game Fair) an amazing lure courser (almost every time getting into the last 4) the first time she had a go at the long jump (last week) she got the reserve championship, she is wonderful at her 'real' job of catching bunnies, and she has the gentlest temperament you could ask for. Yet she is a mongrel- roughly 3/4 whippet 1/8 greyhound 1/8 bedlington terrier.

What has a pedigree got that she hasn't beyond a piece of paper- is that really worth so much money.

Sorry to go on so long but this attitude makes me REALLY REALLY angry.

 

[kris]

well i dont know about anyone else but the reasons i can see why pedigree dogs cost more than mongrels are the following.pedigree dog breeders test their animals for faults,like hip dysplacia cervical spondylosis,p.r.a. etc etc.as far as i know breeders of mongrels dont.the tests and x rays for these health checks dont come cheap.last time i had them done it cost me hundreds of pounds for one dog to get him checked out for all his tests before i would breed from him.he had also proved himself in the show ring to be a good example and typical of his breed by winning well at all levels of showing.this too is a costly business.obedience,shutzhund and any other training involves time, effort and money too.and you honestly cant see why pedigree dogs cost more than a mongrel.id also like to ask has the person who has bred this litter informed the prospective buyers of the health problems in iggys and that there is a chance that these pups may inheirit any preexisting conditions in the breed?has she tested the parents for those defects?cos if she hasnt she is guilty of negligence and in law there is no defence to negligence and she may be in line for some hefty court costs. :thumbsup:

 

[OEH]

Well firstly these genetic problems that you have had to test for in your pedigrees are almost unheard (I would say totally unheard of, but there is no way for me to prove this) of in lurchers due to the outcrossing. Infact hip dysplasia IS unheard of in lurchers, I know this because my vet diagnosed my little Tess with this when she was a baby so I did a lot of research into it (it turned out that she had chipped a bone in her leg, and the vet managed not to see it). So no they don't test for them as there is no need. I also know that many pedigree breeders don't do this either, the reason you did is that you are a responsible breeder, but astonishingly so are many lurcher breeders.

I too spend a lot of time and effort training my dogs to be obedient as they work they have to be. They also frequently win obedience competitions.

So no I still do not see why mongrels are worth less.

 

[oakmoorehill]

I also know the facts behind this litter and as the breeder states it was an acident litter that is never going to be repeated. I do not see any need for all this animosity(sp) towards this person

As for advertising them on epupz I advertised my pups on there last year as long as you vet people properly it is ok no different really than advertising in yu local paper

If I had more room I would not think twice about having one of these pups as I think both parents are cracking dogs

 

[kris]

genetic health problems arent the prerequisite of pedigree dogs unfortunately.yes ive heard about hybrid vigour,but tbh to swop one problem for another doesnt make sense to me.ok in mongrels youll get hybrid vigour but what you wont know what youll get is a mish mash of problems including size,shape,etc as you dont know the genetic mix behind the parents as a rule.noone sets out to breed mongrels as theres not a market for them.if dogs like your lurcher have been bred by a dedicated breeder then theyre just a line of dogs bred by an individual for some years.it doesnt tell you anything about them only the experience of that one individual so you base your case on very shallow ground.pedigree dogs are bred by thousands of people all across the world.because they keep records and test their dogs then obviously it will look like they have more problems as some breeds indeed do,but any breed that you check and record problems in is going to look worse than a vast amount of mongrels that noone is montoring for health problems. :thumbsup:

 

[urchin]

id also like to ask has the person who has bred this litter informed the prospective buyers of the health problems in iggys and that there is a chance that these pups may inheirit any preexisting conditions in the breed?has she tested the parents for those  defects?cos if she hasnt she is guilty of negligence and in law there is no defence to negligence and she may be in line for some hefty court costs. :thumbsup:

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Why don't you do that Kris - no, seriously - why don't you?

I quoted the ad in full earlier to highlight just how responsibley these pups are being found homes.

gorgeous litter of 9 italian x whippets, all blues or fawns, dew claws removed, wormed from 2 wks, will be frontlined and have vet check with cert, extra special homes required for these babies, please no timewasters, will involve lengthy chats to make sure these are the pups for you and i only want forever homes for these, will involve puppy contract too, come with 1st jabs and microchipping, puppy advice pack and puppy diet pack, this mating was not planned and will not be repeated, mum dad aunt granny great granny can all be seen , early deposit and viewing recommended. thank you

what do you think might consitute these lengthy chats? Do you not think the intention of these lengthy chats is to talk through the very real health issues that anyone taking on an iggy (or semi-iggy) needs to be able to deal with?

 

[nina]

I wonder if the lengthy chats would involve the 4 main genetic problems that the breed unfortunately carries & if so what are the solutions to these problems or what help is available if necessary. :- "

 

[kris]

yes id hoped the person advertising this litter of mongrel pups for 300 pounds might tell prospective owners about the health problems in the breed.but there again id have thought theyd have put in the advert what i put in adverts when i had pups.parents tested and scored for h.d.,p.r.a.,c.s.,etc etc.scores can be seen.i presume YOU can answer this question for the person involved?i didnt see anything in the accompanying advert about the health problems in the breed but there again that might put off prospective buyers?

 

[OEH]

genetic health problems arent the prerequisite of pedigree dogs unfortunately.yes ive heard about hybrid vigour,but tbh to swop one problem for another doesnt make sense to me.ok in mongrels youll get hybrid vigour but what you wont know what youll get is a mish mash of problems including size,shape,etc as you dont know the genetic mix behind the parents as a rule.noone sets out to breed mongrels as theres not a market for them.if dogs like your lurcher have been bred by a dedicated breeder then theyre just a line of dogs bred by an individual for some years.it doesnt tell  you anything about them only the experience of that one individual so you base your case on very shallow ground.pedigree dogs are bred by thousands of people all across the world.because they keep records and test their dogs then obviously it will look like they have more problems as some breeds indeed do,but any breed that you check and record problems in is going to look worse than  a vast amount of mongrels that noone is montoring for health problems. :thumbsup:

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Yes but these luchers aren't bred just by one dedicated breed there are many many of us out there . They are bred to do a jobs, and these crosses have ben done many times over many decades, probably centuries. I suspect that the whippet emerged from a line of lurchers. We know what the mating will produce, because they have been done before, all the pups in the litter won't urn out identical, but then why on earth should they, different people want different things from their pups.

I don't understand how you can say that swapping the lack of these horrible problems created by inbreeding for a mixed litter is swaping one problem for another when one clearly is a problem and many see the other as an advantage.

You say you have heard of hybrid vigour then surely you understand the great advantage it brings to the puppies.

No I am not basing my argument on one case. I could have told you simillar things about any of my other lurchers, and those of many other members on here, and many many lurchers I haven't seen or met.

You say that noone sets out to breed mongrels because there isn't a market behind them. Are you really justifying the breeding of dogs with problems just because there is a market for them? Secondly I am planning a litter next time Tess comes into season (some time next year). I will put her to a bedlington whippet and she is a bedlington whippet greyhound. I have very carefully chosen the father to compliment her temperament looks and ability. I have just mentioned this to a few people and I already have 8 firm bookings for puppies, so I doubt she will have enough to fill the demand. Is this no market??????

 

[nina]

Yes but these luchers aren't bred just by one dedicated breed there are many many of us out there .  They are bred to do a jobs, and these crosses have ben done many times over many decades, probably centuries.  I suspect that the whippet emerged from a line of lurchers.  We know what the mating will produce, because they have been done before, all the pups in the litter won't urn out identical, but then why on earth should they, different people want different things from their pups.
I don't understand how you can say that swapping the lack of these horrible problems created by inbreeding for a mixed litter is swaping one problem for another when one clearly is a problem and many see the other as an advantage.

You say you have heard of hybrid vigour then surely you understand the great advantage it brings to the puppies.

No I am not basing my argument on one case.  I could have told you simillar things about any of my other lurchers, and those of many other members on here, and many many lurchers I haven't seen or met.

You say that noone sets out to breed mongrels because there isn't a market behind them.  Are you really justifying the breeding of dogs with problems just because there is a market for them?  Secondly I am planning a litter next time Tess comes into season (some time next year).  I will put her to a bedlington whippet and she is a bedlington whippet greyhound. I have very carefully chosen the father to compliment her temperament looks and ability.  I have just mentioned this to a few people and I already have 8 firm bookings for puppies, so I doubt she will have enough to fill the demand.  Is this no market??????

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Forgive me, I do not breed Lurchers, i have bred IG's for 16 years.

Do you know anything about the bone density of an IG???

Unless you know your lines VERY accurately to cross with another breed could be catastrophic.

These cross breed pups may look like a small whippet & people think great a small fast lurcher to course, lamp, race??

What if they carry the bone density of the ig????

Prepare for MANY broken legs!!!

 

[masta]

Yawn

 

[nina]

Yawn

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Go read a book Masta & educate yourself on atleast one thing

 

[kris]

just cos there are lots of breeders breeding lurchers doesnt mean anything.each breeder will be breeding for different abilities,looks etc.some will swear by beddyx deerhounds,some will only want grey x bulls.everyone will have a different agenda.you have stated this by saying all the pups will turn out differently and that this is a good thing.personally i see it as not a good thing.if you have so much variance of type how can you breed for any certain qualities?some will be one thing some another.im not saying theres not a market for lurchers,there obviously is,thats also why theres so many of them in rescue.the ones that dont come up to scratch?as i read on the lurcher forum the other week,if they dont do the job,get rid and get another.

as for inbreeding,you seem to connect inbreeding with pedigree dogs,why, i dont know, maybe youre confusing inbreeding with line breeding?most pedigree breeders dont practise inbreeding unless they know exactly what theyre doing,and only then after much careful consideration.swapping genetic faults for another set of genetic faults isnt problem solving.its kennel blindness.

i think its wonderful you have so many folk wanting pups from your dog. :thumbsup:

 

[masta]

Yawn

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Go read a book Masta & educate yourself on atleast one thing

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hail Nina true to form! how many years you been breeding igs sorry forgot youve already told us a zillion times why have you started to put smilies on the end of your insults but you are getting better last time you called me a "moronic cabbage"

 

[Mark Roberts]

last time you called me a "moronic cabbage

Didn't know she'd met you LOL

 

[*Lesley*]

last time you called me a "moronic cabbage

Didn't know she'd met you LOL

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Awww cabbage yes but not moronic :teehee:

 

[masta]

Nina i read a book its called " Albert Einstein, Relativity: The Special and the General Theory"

A book by the man himself in which puts his own work into its historical perspective. He discusses the work of giants on whose shoulders he stood to obtain his own perspective of the universe. Much of the historical work will be known to physics students, but here the timeline is laid out and his work placed in its experimental and theoretical background.

The book is not an easy read. I have read it once, and I expect to read it twice more before I have extracted and comprehended all he has to say.

The appendices are nicely illuminating and throw that bit of mathematical light on the subject which makes this book rise above a banal description

the chapter on "Bone density in italian greyhounds" just said see Nina