Kennel Club To Clamp Down On Breeders

[quintessence]

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I wonder if the Peke breeders will maybe ask permission to use Tibetan Spaniels to gain the changes required in the new standard. Without looking it up I think the breeds are faily closely related. It is going to be an interesting few months.

Jenny

 

[Seraphina]

I believe that there are people who have been breeding "old fashioned" type of pekes and some other breeds.

In any case the pushed in faces can be reversed (over time) if breeders chose the pup with the longest nose instead of the most pushed in one. Any of the exaggerated traits can be reversed, just as any trait can be exaggerated.

The interesting aspect of this will be how to force judges to disregard the dogs that they up till now considered correct.

But then again, anything is possible; if you'd tell me 6 months ago that the US government will be nationalizing their banks, I would have laughed.

 

[seaspot_run]

I believe that there are people who have been breeding "old fashioned" type of pekes and some other breeds. 
In any case the pushed in faces can be reversed (over time) if breeders chose the pup with the longest nose instead of the most pushed in one.  Any of the exaggerated traits can be reversed, just as any trait can be exaggerated. 

The interesting aspect of this will be how to force judges to disregard the dogs that they up till now considered correct. 

But then again, anything is possible; if you'd tell me 6 months ago that the US government will be nationalizing their banks, I would have laughed. 

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Ow, man, that hurts. :wacko:

 

[belge]

The thing is, when you breed something out of a breed, it's gone forever. So if every Pekinese in the world has what's seen as an overtly short muzzle, there's no way you can breed it back into the dogs because it's already gone.

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I'm not sure if some of these traits are just recently 'gone'. I have a reprinted book first published in the 1870s which show pictures of some of these breeds that have been 'ruined'. The picture of the pug looks remarkably like the ones we see today as does the pekinese. The bassets, while not perhaps as developed in the head as today's dogs have the most remarkably crooked fronts! The dachshunds are not much better. The only breed that has changed significantly is the bulldog which is lighter in the body, longer in the leg and has a boxer-like head.

I can scan some of these images on Monday (my scanner at home here is temperamental). :wacko:

The book is Vero Shaw's Classic Encyclodpaedia of the Dog published between 1878 and 1881.

 

[Seraphina]

I have a reprinted book first published in the 1870s which show pictures of some of these breeds that have been 'ruined'.  The bassets, while not perhapThe book is Vero Shaw's Classic Encyclodpaedia of the Dog published between 1878 and 1881.

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This is a basset from that book. This dog has a remarkably more space between his chest and the ground, he is lot shorter in the body, carries lot less weight and does not have all that floppy skin seen in modern bassets. His ears are considerably shorter and head lighter.

 

[quintessence]

I have added a link to the Albany Bassets, a working pack in Lincolshire. Have a look at the type.

http://www.albanybassets.co.uk/default.asp

Jenny

 

[rls22]

That is so interesting, thanks for the link Jenny.

Don't they look wonderful and so very different to the basset's that we are used to seeing.

 

[BlackMoon Magic]

wow! don't they look like nice dogs! I haven't seen one even close to that in a show ring.........

 

[maggie217]

I have added a link to the Albany Bassets, a working pack in Lincolshire.  Have a look at the type.


http://www.albanybassets.co.uk/default.asp

Jenny

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They look wonderful but I guess the KC would have to allow outcrosses to working strains as they are pobably not KC registered.

Pauline

 

[maggie217]

The thing is, when you breed something out of a breed, it's gone forever. So if every Pekinese in the world has what's seen as an overtly short muzzle, there's no way you can breed it back into the dogs because it's already gone.

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I'm not sure if some of these traits are just recently 'gone'. I have a reprinted book first published in the 1870s which show pictures of some of these breeds that have been 'ruined'. The picture of the pug looks remarkably like the ones we see today as does the pekinese. The bassets, while not perhaps as developed in the head as today's dogs have the most remarkably crooked fronts! The dachshunds are not much better. The only breed that has changed significantly is the bulldog which is lighter in the body, longer in the leg and has a boxer-like head.

I can scan some of these images on Monday (my scanner at home here is temperamental). :wacko:

The book is Vero Shaw's Classic Encyclodpaedia of the Dog published between 1878 and 1881.

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I agree, and think the trouble with a lot of breeds will be that the current problems are historic and it will take generations of selective breeding to get rid of what are now beginning to be seen as undesirable. It can't happen overnight.

 

[quintessence]

I have added a link to the Albany Bassets, a working pack in Lincolshire.  Have a look at the type.


http://www.albanybassets.co.uk/default.asp

Jenny

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They look wonderful but I guess the KC would have to allow outcrosses to working strains as they are pobably not KC registered.

Pauline

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It's quite interesting under the history section how the pack came to be formed, I would love to see them working, can you imagine the noise.

Jenny

 

[Hebridean]

The thing is, when you breed something out of a breed, it's gone forever. So if every Pekinese in the world has what's seen as an overtly short muzzle, there's no way you can breed it back into the dogs because it's already gone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I'm not sure if some of these traits are just recently 'gone'. I have a reprinted book first published in the 1870s which show pictures of some of these breeds that have been 'ruined'. The picture of the pug looks remarkably like the ones we see today as does the pekinese. The bassets, while not perhaps as developed in the head as today's dogs have the most remarkably crooked fronts! The dachshunds are not much better. The only breed that has changed significantly is the bulldog which is lighter in the body, longer in the leg and has a boxer-like head.

I can scan some of these images on Monday (my scanner at home here is temperamental). :wacko:

The book is Vero Shaw's Classic Encyclodpaedia of the Dog published between 1878 and 1881.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I agree, and think the trouble with a lot of breeds will be that the current problems are historic and it will take generations of selective breeding to get rid of what are now beginning to be seen as undesirable. It can't happen overnight.

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This is a very interesting thread!!

I'm not sure if I will make my thoughts clear . . . :teehee: . . . how can we be sure that the 'selective breeding' we do in the future to get rid of undesirable traits will not actually introduce even more undesirable features?

If we are breeding to fix health faults, I can understand that. But if we continue to breed for what 'looks' right, I don't think we can make any progress. Also, how is the average (hobby) breeder going to be able to 'select' the stock to breed from without having to take a degree in genetics? Who are the experts - or does that lead us back to the KC (NOT)?

 

[jayp]

I have added a link to the Albany Bassets, a working pack in Lincolshire.  Have a look at the type.


http://www.albanybassets.co.uk/default.asp

Jenny

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They look wonderful but I guess the KC would have to allow outcrosses to working strains as they are pobably not KC registered.

Pauline

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Having read a bit on how the pack was formed i would be suprised if they wanted to use their healthy pack and cross into KC :- " :- "

 

[seaspot_run]

Back to Whippets, I must say I do not find that the breed has deteriorated in any significant way over the decades but genetic health and longevity. I think a lot of our modern Whippets live less long on average, and there are many potential reasons why this may be so.

I think our modern dogs are a much sturdier-looking dog than the ones in the old photos, very attractive, and with a generally pleasing house pet disposition. Although there are some exaggerations that cause loss of speed and agility in performance events with some of the top show dogs, there are many who still run very well and have the instincts to race and course. My half-Bluestreak stuff races and courses very well here.

There is nothing in our standard that codes for a dog with structural problems that code for increased risk of health or reproductive problems, for which we can be profoundly grateful.

Really, we just have to sort out our genetics. The standards are fine. If we wanted to return to a more functional dog, the way to do that is to de-emphasize side movement and put more stress on musculature.

My first breed I ever showed was the German Shepherd. It went through a period of EXTREME exaggeration over here in the USA between about 1975 and 1990. You could scarcely find a healthy German Shepherd, the temperaments suffered---it was a whole host of problems, and side gait was all. The problem wasn't just the standard, it was the way the standard was being interpreted by breeders and judges and handlers. If some is correct, MORE is MORE correct.

I think the German Shepherds we have in our rings now are much less weird and exaggerated than they were 20 years ago. But the damage was done and the big entries in that breed and the popularity they enjoyed in the early 1970's is a thing of the past.

Mother and I went to Crufts in 1998. We decided to watch the Alsatians, along with several of the other breeds of my childhood we despaired of before we found Whippets. I have to admit, I was SHOCKED by the British Alsatians. They made our dogs look very moderate indeed.

I am not surprised to hear there are many problems with that breed. Normally, we Yanks look to the UK for something more moderate and functional and truer to the purpose than our glammed-up American stock, but in this case, it was QUITE the opposite. The UK dogs were much more exaggerated than ours and many with those weird roach backs which would never fly here in the ring.

I don't know how changing a standard will matter when you've had people in certain breeds and the judges ignoring whole swathes of the standard that has been in effect for years in pursuit of the most extreme dog they can put before the judges to catch their eye.

Again--Here's what the standard says:

Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long. Overall length achieved by correct angle of well laid shoulders, correct length of croup and hindquarters. Withers long, of good height and well defined, joining back in a smooth line without disrupting flowing topline, slightly sloping from front to back. Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be rejected. Loin broad, strong, well muscled.

So, you go to the ring and see weak, roach backs winning. How will changing the standard change that?

Sorry if I am offending any of the GSD people. I know it's a very tough breed to breed well. A heartbreaking breed, really. The side gait desired in order to win contributes to joint laxity which contributes to the hip and elbow problems in the breed.

 

[Scudder]

Back to Peke's...all you have to do is go to Youtube and plug in Pekingese to find lots of videos of happy, healthy peke pets that run around on strong (albeit short) legs and have a bit of muzzle length. The genes are obviously still there, but I see a major psychological hurdle in using what would normally be considered "pet" stock.

I think two interesting points have been made on the various boards and in my conversations with other people:

1) I see the creation of new registries as a major issue. Here in the US, we've had a "If you can't beat 'em, register them somewhere else" issue for the last few years. The AKC used to be the end all be all and then we had the UKC which is a legitimate registry with their own events and shows, but the puppy farms also use a variety of different registries with their own names, policies and money making schemes. A lot of this was to get around the fees imposed by the AKC, but also to avoid inspection and regulation by the AKC and still provide the end consumer (pet buyer) with a "registered" puppy.

If people don't want to conform to the KC rules and regulations, what is to stop them from forming a new registry if they are not a government sanctioned authority?

2) Many of the "old" traits are going to be found in dogs that aren't bred specifically to win in the show ring. That means hunting/working stock, which has already been pointed out as a viable source of genetic diversity and dare I say it, puppy farms and pet breeders. :- "

I'm thankful the whippet breed as a whole is a hearty breed. We do have known issues and we need to stop burying our head in the sand and work through it. Breeders who come forward with problems in their line should not be treated like they have leprosy nor should you throw the baby out with the bathwater. You can work around health issues. If you eliminated every dog with genetic issues, we'd have absolutely NO dogs left to breed.

Its not the current generation of breeders that will suffer if changes aren't made soon. Its people like me who have done their homework, paid their dues and are just starting to get serious about breeding and are in it for the long haul. In 20 years I don't want to look back and realize we had a chance to make a difference and we chose not to.

The evidence is in front of us. We have a good, healthy breed and we need to keep it that way through rigorous health testing and thoughtful breeding practices creating genetic diversity for generations to come.

Kristen

 

[affieluver]

I have added a link to the Albany Bassets, a working pack in Lincolshire.  Have a look at the type.


http://www.albanybassets.co.uk/default.asp

Jenny

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They look wonderful but I guess the KC would have to allow outcrosses to working strains as they are pobably not KC registered.

Pauline

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It's quite interesting under the history section how the pack came to be formed, I would love to see them working, can you imagine the noise.

Jenny

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i have seen the albany bassets working and they are fanatastic so much sleeker in shape than you are used to seeing took me a while to get used to seeing them and as for the noise you will do well to understand anyone :lol: in their company but i love them and i have to say i dont think todays show bred bassets would have a hope in keeping up with them in the field

 

[North-Row]

Hi

I would like to know what all the people who are talking about the alleged health issues / problems in the breed are doing within their own breedlines. It is all fine to talk about the alleged problems but what are you doing about stopping it. Just talking about CoI is not the panacea for all ills

[mod edit]

Please inform the rest of us what you do to try to improve the alleged problems in the breed.

As for talking about Pekes I don't think it is relevant to talk about Peke problems on a Forum for Whippets esp. Whippet - Showing forum. If you have a problem with Pekes then why don't you go on a forum about Pekes

Emma

 

[chelynnah]

Just a remindernot to get personal

thanks

Wendy

 

[quintessence]

I am not able to answer your questions Emma and I will leave that for others, but I fail to understand why there is a problem in us discussing Pekes, albeit in a minor way. The Kennel Club has this week changed the Peke standard with immediate effect, surely that in itself ought to be worthy of comment. I have no wish to join a Peke forum but I do actually have a great sympathy for the Peke breeders as I suspect would anyone who read Geoffrey Davies advert in last week,s dog press. The title of this topic is " Kennel Club to Clamp Down on Breeders", the Peke breeders were the first group to feel that clamp down.

Jenny

 

[doris]

I totally agree Jenny :thumbsup:

We all have to step back and take a look at 'the bigger picture' once in a while, and anything that encourages us to do that is a good thing :cheers:

It doesn't necessarily mean that you HAVE to change what you think about things, but if you never step back and look, how on earth can you see where you're heading . . . . . :wacko: