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[Mark Roberts]

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oh very clear

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

and J'Andy Thor being in the 7th generation :

So much for the "acceptable" 5 gen pedigree rule the WCRA imposes. This is a catch 22 situation, the pedigree's acceptability is down to the whim of a committee. We had the option of importing a bitch almost exclusively show bred for 5 gen the only exception being one line going back to J' Andy Thor. Just how pervasive are the genes of a non registered whippet type dog supposed to be? A few years ago we enjoyed the company of a lady who has a fine reputation in the USA, a lady who has raced, showed & coursed longer than many "experts have been alive & been invited to judge all over the world. Her opinion of the whole American furore was "whatever MAY!! have been there isn't there now. If it is it is so dilute as to be irrelevant." We Brits seem to suffer from complacency in a big way, our cars are the best, our ships are the best, our racehorses are the best etc etc. Time after time we are proved wrong. Everything can be improved the very fact that very experienced people from the show fraternity are importing shows that our stock may well be improved by foreign bloodlines. The only way to find out is to bring a few over & try them.

Terry Smith

 

[Paul Melia]

Some generalizations in your last post Terry, particularly with your tongue in cheek reference to the British belief that we have the best horses. The UK imports more foriegn bloodlines than any other nation in the world, so one would hope we wouldn't import crap!

The whippet scene is a world apart from the thoroughbred scene as unsuccessful breeders go to the wall quickly if they produce crap from well-thought out mating plans. Let alone barmy crack pot schemes of taking moderate mares to duff stallions.

I fail to see the logic of gambling to improve racing lines by breeding to unproven show stock. Some recent statistics published on this thread show a 17% increase in probability in producing a champ by both parents being champs, from a 10% chance if one parent is a champ to a lottery winning chance of 2.5% if neither parent is a champ....

Another interesting statistic would be the number of champs produced by champion whose parents were not champions. A one-off champion from dubious racing breeding must be a low statistic to produce more champions.

 

[Strike Whippets]

You are correct that this is a catch 22 situation Terry .........We're going round in circles, instead of forward :wacko: ...........I think someone in the non peds said that it was doubtful that dogs like Andy Thor (and such like) if alive today would actually be that quick, as the non peds are being bred faster,.................

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

Some generalizations in your last post Terry, particularly with your tongue in cheek reference to the British belief that we have the best horses. The UK imports more foriegn bloodlines than any other nation in the world, so one would hope we wouldn't import crap!

Exactly the point I was making, perhaps I should have put that line in the past tense. We import a lot of cars too & don't make that many ships. I am however old enough to remember the shock waves when french horses came over in the early fifties & won races I also remember equal shockwaves when England got beat at Wembley for the first time (by Hungary). Up to that point as I originally said complacency ruled we didn't need to learn anything from anybody else. To read some of the posts in this thread the English race whippet cannot be imroved upon. As I said earlier everything can be improved nothing is ever complete or perfect.

I fail to see the logic of gambling to improve racing lines by breeding to unproven show stock. Some recent statistics published on this thread show a 17% increase in probability in producing a champ by both parents being champs, from a 10% chance if one parent is a champ to a lottery winning chance of 2.5% if neither parent is a champ....

I don't see where I advocated breeding to unproven show stock. I have stated in the past that some out breeding would probably help to rule out the crypto/mono problem. Thats if you view it as a problem many racers don't. It would also open the gene pool out but again how many people are bothered about that as long as they get their picture in "Whippet News". I also stated that there would inevitably be some loss of speed for a period of time but the overall gain MAY be worth the wait.

My interest in importing the particular bitch I wrote about was the fact she was bred out of a bitch we exported by a very handsome dog that won bob at a world show. I have very little interest in stroking my ego via a winning dog in any discipline even though we try to enter as many different events as possible. My sole interest in breeding is producing a type of dog which I like I don't own a trophy cabinet. My mention of imported show dogs was to illustrate the fact that people in the show world with 20-30 years of experience in the breed are seeing fit to import because there are quality dogs to be found in other parts of the world.

Another interesting statistic would be the number of champs produced by champion whose parents were not champions. A one-off champion from dubious racing breeding must be a low statistic to produce more champions.

What's dubious about the lines Hannah wants to import? They are race proven stock from a very competitive race scene. They are also robust well boned animals with little incidence of crypto/mono problems & they have an AKC 5!! gen pedigree. Which would qualify them to take part in any activity in this country apart from WCRA racing. This programme would by pass any need to outbreed away from race stock, as you say the horse world has been importing for years so too has the greyhound industry. Any breeding is leap of faith as the saying goes you know you've got a good 'un when it's won half a dozen events. There is the same element of chance breeding to the progeny of a yankee or continental import as there is in a new breeding to uk stock.

Terry Smith

 

[Judy]

I have stated in the past that some out breeding would probably help to rule out the crypto/mono problem. Thats if you view it as a problem many racers don't.
They are also robust well boned animals with little incidence of crypto/mono problems

Terry Smith

They are certainly well boned but have you actually got any figures on the incidence of cryptorchidism here or in the USA Terry? How do you know that they have less?

Looking at the pedigrees of the american race breds, their amount of inbreeding is just as high, if not higher than ours here.

 

[Judy]

I believe Cockeymoor Flyer was banned because he was a black dog from a brindle and a fawn parent, which you can't get.

I'm no colour expert, but isn't it possible for a dog that actually looks black can infact be geneticaal brindle?

I do know that the three Besaps dogs exported to Canada were blacks as far as I could tell.

Yes, it is possible for a dog to appear black when it is actually a very dark brindle but Cockeymoor Flyer bred on as a black, not a brindle. He produced blacks and blues to fawn & brindle bitches so it's pretty obvious he really was black.

 

[IanGerman]

Has anyone got any recorded times for the classic distances from back in the day? It might be interesting to see how today's generation of peddies stack up against previous generations.

Terry is of the opinion that nothing is ever perfect - well quite right taken at face value I suppose - but CAN our pedigrees go any faster lb for lb over the classic distances? There must come a time when any overall improvement - just like in human athletics, can only be measured in micro-seconds not whole seconds, and I would suggest we are at that stage now.

Regular infusions of greyhound blood would increase speed as the non-ped racers have shown but I will have to remain sceptical ..... unless events prove different!!

*0ff topic* Eight pages! Well done you lot, debate CAN be fun !!!

 

[Strike Whippets]

They are certainly well boned but have you actually got any figures on the incidence of cryptorchidism here or in the USA Terry? How do you know that they have less?

I personally thought that the mono/cryptorchid dogs were only allowed to race after being "done".......(someone correct me if I'm wrong) .......which would take them out of the gene pool .....unlike our lot Plus I've heard from a few breeders in America that this is really isn't a problem in the racing lines :thumbsup: ......plus its a no no, as is bad mouths, bad pigmentation etc ......

Looking at the pedigrees of the American race breds, their amount of inbreeding is just as high, if not higher than ours here.

Striker or Besaps ......same difference, apart from the Americans are ALLOWED to IMPORT and RACE Whippets from other countries .........unlike us ......Thus ending up with a wider gene pool 8)

What's dubious about the lines Hannah wants to import? They are race proven stock from a very competitive race scene. They are also robust well boned animals with little incidence of crypto/mono problems & they have an AKC 5!! gen pedigree. Which would qualify them to take part in any activity in this country apart from WCRA racing.

I really don't see a problem either, .....A pedigree Whippet is a pedigree Whippet wether the WCRA approves or not .....I think I shall just bring an import over and compete in EVERYTHING I'm allowed to :thumbsup: .....and theres certainly NOTHING dubious about an American bred racing Whippet btw 8) .......They like ours are selectively bred to run as fast as they can

 

[John E Greenwood]

I don't see where I advocated breeding to unproven show stock. I have stated in the past that some out breeding would probably help to rule out the crypto/mono problem. Thats if you view it as a problem many racers don't. It would also open the gene pool out but again how many people are bothered about that as long as they get their picture in "Whippet News". I also stated that there would inevitably be some loss of speed for a period of time but the overall gain MAY be worth the wait.My interest in importing the particular bitch I wrote about was the fact she was bred out of a bitch we exported by a very handsome dog that won bob at a world show. I have very little interest in stroking my ego via a winning dog in  any discipline even though we try to enter as many different events as possible. My sole interest in breeding is producing a type of dog which I like I don't own a trophy cabinet. My mention of imported show dogs was to illustrate the fact that people in the show world with 20-30 years of experience in the breed are seeing fit to import because there are quality dogs to be found in other parts of the world.

Terry Smith

Terry,...........I think you know that first and formost my dogs are pets...It is important to me that they are sound, and as far as I know carry no genetic defects (especially any which I intend to breed from) be biddable, and have a good temperament....Having said that, I could keep any breed and make the above statements....I don't keep any breed, I keep whippets. I keep whippets, because I enjoy entering them in competitions. I enjoy the competitions, firstly because the dogs enjoy it, and secondly because I enjoy the excitement of the competition, and the socialising with people (like you), from whom I may be able to learn more about the breed and the sport........IN MY OPINION THERE IS NO POINT ENTERING COMPETITIONS UNLESS YOU ARE GOING TO TRY AND WIN......

People are ottering on about the gene pool.. I don't know what the U.K. population of whippets is (I would guess thousands of dogs, no doubt with the odd potential racing Champ. undiscovered, somewhere :unsure: ), and I estimate about 300 to 400 dogs racing regularly with the W.C.R.A......What is wrong with line breeding?...There are enough racing dogs in this country to select a line with no genetic defects, the temperament you are looking for etc., and there is nothing wrong with line breeding...all other breeders of livestock use the technique. Having said that, I am not against importing approved bloodlines, if that's what a particular breeder wants to do.....The line having to be approved is part of the rules of the game which we are trying to play and win (ie. pedigree whippet racing)....if you don't like the rules, don't play the game.

Judy.....The 17% of the Champs offspring who become Champs.....are they owned and trained by people who have previously owned and trained Champions?...I just thought that pups bred from Champions, obviously by racing people, would be more likely to go to experienced racing people and so be better trained etc.....may that not have an effect?

If 17% become Champs, 83% don't..........is it possible to select the 17% from the litter at 6 or 8 weeks old?......or would it be possible to select any 17% and train them to become champs????????....If there were more people training and racing seriously, would there be more Champs?

I would think that the U.K. populatin of whipps raced under W.C.R.A. rules is the most intensively raced and timed population in the world.....partly because of the size of our country. There are Open Races every week, which most of the dogs will be able to attend, and the Champs 4 times a year....I would think (correct me if I'm wrong, Tony) that the U.S. scene is regional because of distances which have to be travelled etc.....how many dogs are there in the U.S. whippet racing population?

 

[Paul Melia]

To read some of the posts in this thread the English race whippet cannot be imroved upon. As I said earlier everything can be improved nothing is ever complete or perfect.
I agree, everything can be improved upon. However I haven't seen anything on the US or European whippet websites where an honest assessment or comparison can be made with the UK whippets. A distinct lack of times, distances and weights of the whippets that are competing, despite other forum users asking for such information.

I don't see where I advocated breeding to unproven show stock. I have stated in the past that some out breeding would probably help to rule out the crypto/mono problem.I also stated that there would inevitably be some loss of speed for a period of time but the overall gain MAY be worth the wait.

There must be enough dogs or bitches racing that don't carry the fault to remedy the problem without an outcross to show stock. The fault will remedy itself if racing folk don't consider it a problem as one ball may become none!!

I have very little interest in stroking my ego via a winning dog in  any discipline even though we try to enter as many different events as possible. My sole interest in breeding is producing a type of dog which I like I don't own a trophy cabinet.

I'm afraid I will be wanting to win what I can. It is the few highs of winning that sustain the many lows of losing.

My mention of imported show dogs was to illustrate the fact that people in the show world with 20-30 years of experience in the breed are seeing fit to import because there are quality dogs to be found in other parts of the world.

I think that the racing/ coursing scene in the UK is unique. A small island that ensures that all the whippet population can compete in one form or another. Is there another place where whippets can contest in good numbers?

What's dubious about the lines Hannah wants to import?

I wasn't commenting on the lines Hannah was going to import but the idea of importing!!

They are race proven stock from a very competitive race scene.

How competitive? What numbers attend meets etc?

This programme would by pass any need to outbreed away from race stock, as you say the horse world has been importing for years so too has the greyhound industry.

I agree, but you have to be sure that the stock selected is suitable and this can only be done by making comparisons with the stock you are hoping to improve. There doesn't appear to be enough information for me to be able to make a comparison. That doesn't mean there isn't any information and I would be very interested in reading it.

There is the same element of chance breeding to the progeny of a yankee or continental import as there is in a new breeding to uk stock.

[/b]For me it is about hedging your bets and unlike the racehorse and greyhound industry where there is a wealth of data on the racing performance of bloodlines. The whippet scene is a shot in the dark!!

 

[Paul Melia]

83% of whippets with both champion parents fail to become champs.

90% of whippets with one champion parent fail to become champs.

97.5% of whippets with neither champion parent fail to become champs.

 

[Strike Whippets]

I wasn't going to answer on this topic again as I'm pissed right off with it but .............

I haven't seen anything on the US or European whippet websites where an honest assessment or comparison can be made with the UK whippets. A distinct lack of times, distances and weights of the whippets that are competing, despite other forum users asking for such information.

And the problem is ?? ..........I was looking at importing a NEW line ........and regardless of times etc ......we must remember that American racing dogs HAVE to meet a stricter criteria than our race breds do (meaning they meet the standard more than ours do ).......Who cares about time ?? ....they HAVE to be faster than our SHOW OR COURSING breds (IMHO)........No ones asking anyone else to "use or want" an imported line .......but I do :thumbsup:

There must be enough dogs or bitches racing that don't carry the fault to remedy the problem without an outcross to show stock. The fault will remedy itself if racing folk don't consider it a problem as one ball may become none!!

Go on then.........tell me which line dosn't have the potential for this problem ........ :- " .......My ONLY male has this problem and he's an out cross .....even if he is F***ing perfect in every other way :wub:

I think that the racing/ coursing scene in the UK is unique. A small island that ensures that all the whippet population can compete in one form or another.

Hmm ......We have Show breds, racing breds and coursing breds ...........The racers are better on the race track and coursing field........and the show breds are becoming their own type in the ring (IMHO)...........Which leaves our coursing breds where ?? ......You'll find that the American breds are like ours, as different types of Whippet are better at different activities out there :thumbsup:

I wasn't commenting on the lines Hannah was going to import but the idea of importing!!

And whats wrong with importing ??? ..........I wish that I'd never been so open about this, and just went ahead and imported .........I'm pissed off with explaining myself to everyone

How competitive? What numbers attend meets etc?

Who cares ?? .......Its a new line :unsure:

AND............

People are ottering on about the gene pool.. I don't know what the U.K. population of whippets is (I would guess thousands of dogs, no doubt with the odd potential racing Champ. undiscovered, somewhere  ), and I estimate about 300 to 400 dogs racing regularly with the W.C.R.A......What is wrong with line breeding?...There are enough racing dogs in this country to select a line with no genetic defects, the temperament you are looking for etc., and there is nothing wrong with line breeding..

Out of all those thousands of Whippets John, you find that racing champion :thumbsup: ....I personally dont have the space or time to troll through all of those lines to find a "maybe" :unsure: .........As for line breeding .......theres nothing wrong with it (I've just gone and done it myself ...hopefully :thumbsup: )........But you can only line breed/inter breed for so long befor problems arise :- " .......ie there are temprement, testical, auto immune problems etc in our racing lines already ........as well as other problems .......but hey thats line breeding

I hope that I haven't come across as rude......but I have worked with and known about dogs and genetics for years and I'm sick to death of being told what is right or wrong :- " .........After years and years I can still read an NGRC pedigree.......and they have a much bigger gene pool than a racing Whippet :thumbsup: ......So one does get slightly F***ed off with being treated like a twat by some of you lot .........If I want to buy a dog from abroard ......I SHALL :thumbsup: .........I am an intelligent 31 year old who will do what she wants to do (w00t) ........Hannah

 

[BeeJay]

I wasn't going to answer on this topic again as I'm pissed right off with it but .............

I haven't seen anything on the US or European whippet websites where an honest assessment or comparison can be made with the UK whippets. A distinct lack of times, distances and weights of the whippets that are competing, despite other forum users asking for such information.

And the problem is ?? ..........I was looking at importing a NEW line ........and regardless of times etc ......we must remember that American racing dogs HAVE to meet a stricter criteria than our race breds do (meaning they meet the standard more than ours do ).......Who cares about time ?? ....they HAVE to be faster than our SHOW OR COURSING breds (IMHO)........No ones asking anyone else to "use or want" an imported line .......but I do :thumbsup:

There must be enough dogs or bitches racing that don't carry the fault to remedy the problem without an outcross to show stock. The fault will remedy itself if racing folk don't consider it a problem as one ball may become none!!

Go on then.........tell me which line dosn't have the potential for this problem ........ :- " .......My ONLY male has this problem and he's an out cross .....even if he is F***ing perfect in every other way :wub:

I think that the racing/ coursing scene in the UK is unique. A small island that ensures that all the whippet population can compete in one form or another.

Hmm ......We have Show breds, racing breds and coursing breds ...........The racers are better on the race track and coursing field........and the show breds are becoming their own type in the ring (IMHO)...........Which leaves our coursing breds where ?? ......You'll find that the American breds are like ours, as different types of Whippet are better at different activities out there :thumbsup:

I wasn't commenting on the lines Hannah was going to import but the idea of importing!!

And whats wrong with importing ??? ..........I wish that I'd never been so open about this, and just went ahead and imported .........I'm pissed off with explaining myself to everyone

How competitive? What numbers attend meets etc?

Who cares ?? .......Its a new line :unsure:

AND............

People are ottering on about the gene pool.. I don't know what the U.K. population of whippets is (I would guess thousands of dogs, no doubt with the odd potential racing Champ. undiscovered, somewhere  ), and I estimate about 300 to 400 dogs racing regularly with the W.C.R.A......What is wrong with line breeding?...There are enough racing dogs in this country to select a line with no genetic defects, the temperament you are looking for etc., and there is nothing wrong with line breeding..

Out of all those thousands of Whippets John, you find that racing champion :thumbsup: ....I personally dont have the space or time to troll through all of those lines to find a "maybe" :unsure: .........As for line breeding .......theres nothing wrong with it (I've just gone and done it myself ...hopefully :thumbsup: )........But you can only line breed/inter breed for so long befor problems arise :- " .......ie there are temprement, testical, auto immune problems etc in our racing lines already ........as well as other problems .......but hey thats line breeding

I hope that I haven't come across as rude......but I have worked with and known about dogs and genetics for years and I'm sick to death of being told what is right or wrong :- " .........After years and years I can still read an NGRC pedigree.......and they have a much bigger gene pool than a racing Whippet :thumbsup: ......So one does get slightly F***ed off with being treated like a twat by some of you lot .........If I want to buy a dog from abroard ......I SHALL :thumbsup: .........I am an intelligent 31 year old who will do what she wants to do (w00t) ........Hannah

I'll give you one guess at why I'm quoting this post Hannah. <BEG>

Sorry I just couldn't resist doing it. <BG>

Sorry can't add anymore smilies. You've maxed out on them Hannah.

 

[Vicky]

(w00t) (w00t) Whats she like, it kinda makes you not want to take her serious lol

A bit like when michelle was bollocking ahmed in big brother then called him chick at the end of it lol

Anyway - u go girl, good on you for sticking up for what you believe in!

 

[Scott Frodsham]

31 ? Jeez you've had a hard life Hannah! :clown:

(I'll expect my punch next time I see you!)

 

[Vicky]

Should i hit him for you?

 

[Scott Frodsham]

Should i hit him for you? 

Whatever floats your boat Vicky!

 

[Strike Whippets]

......Thanks Barbara...........I don't know why you quoted allf my post though :- " :lol: ........And yes Vicky, slap him hard (w00t) .......As for you comment Scott ........it's Whippet racing that has done this to me and the thought of importing has put another 5 years on me at least :lol: :lol:

 

[Mark Roberts]

Jeez you've had a hard life Hannah

Think of poor Smurf.