Let's Hear Your Views

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

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A race bred dog which was really quite slow here was exported to Sweden a few years ago where it did very well indeed and so did her puppies so our dogs might not be so slow against the European dogs.

I know of this bitch. The oval track isn't a highly competitive sport by any standards since we have very few active dogs. Don't confuse Sweden with continental Europe when it comes to racing speed.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that this particular bitch exelled at lure coursing but was so-so at actual racing. It was actually bred from one of the fastest dogs in this country at the time out of a mainly race bred bitch.

None of this kennel achieved much although all of them were "race bred" to flavour of the day champions. Maybe a change of regime had a beneficial effect on this particular bitch.

Terry Smith

 

[Judy]

Interesting to hear that the dogs in Sweden may not be so competitive /fast as elsewhere in Europe. The bitch that went out there was really pretty slow. I don't know if we are talking about the same one Terry. Her sire was pretty good but I wouldn't have said he was one of the fastest dogs in the country by any means.

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

Sire was "Orwell" who I think was a top ten dog at the time. His breeders reckoned he was one of the fastest of two fast litters. He did miss out with bad toes though. May be wrong it was around the time we bowed out/ were kicked out of ped racing.

Terry Smith

 

[tlewis]

We had World Championship races this year in Tampere (where I live) and Whippets from Central-Europe won the both titles (males and bitches). So, like Malin sed, if a Whippet did well in Sweden it doesn't mean that it would've done well in Finland or especially in Central-Europe.
If you are interested to see the results of the World Championship Race 2004:

Saturday

Sunday

The German dog Zorneagles Fernando won the top flight race and was almost one second faster over 350m than it's nearest rival. Fernando is also a top winner in the rest of Europe but not every time and by such a large margin.

BTW it would not get a passport under WCRA rules Oh well!!

 

[Judy]

I think your thinking of George Orwell Terry. He never made Top Ten or Superstars. Perhaps you were thinking of one of his litter brothers.

 

[Smiffy@VeronnaV]

Could you hearing me saying that Babs!! The Whippet Club, as you have quite rightly stated, does indeed allow you to show a dog which is outside the current whippet standard at dog shows which it hosts, and you may, if you so wish show your whippet dog or bitch at championship shows - even if it is above the current height standard given for the pedigree whippet. Given that we are discussing the HEIGHT STANDARD and the associated weight restriction for the pedigree whippet I am amazed that you question the integrity of the WCRA. Should you not be questioning the integrity of the Whippet Club, Kennel Club and KC appointed judges who favour these oversized whippets rather than whippets which fall within the standard? And if you are a breeder of show whippets, and show your oversized dogs in the ring, why would you be miffed that the WCRA choses to remain within the whippet standard height restriction for the purposes of racing?

I and my ilk did not chose the disparity in height between racing and show whippets that is now predominent within the whippet fraternity. The breeders, judges and show people chose that route. And isn't it interesting that whilst you may not race your oversize show winning whippet at an affiliated WCRA club, I, and my brothers and sisters in racing may show our pedigree whippets in the show ring if we so wish. So ask yourself, which whippet 'strain' actually meets the standard? And why have a standard if you aren't going to stick to it? And so I'm back to the beginning again, integrity of the WCRA. Long may they remain the bulwark for the standard of the pedigree whippet.

I'm not opposed to new blood, as long as the dogs have gone through quarantine. But unlike many of you, do not think that winners beget winners as our WCRA champions fail to follow that ethos when used in breeding programmes. All you can say is that the progeny may be good. Thus I can see no advantage to having oversized, overseas dogs imported for breeding purposes. So am more than happy to have the UK whippet used in selective breeding programmes, as long as they are within the standard of course!!! :luck:

 

[BeeJay]

Carmel. This is an accusation that I take very seriously. Please point out to me WHEN I have questioned the integrity of the WCRA. Either on this board or verbally. You won't be able to do so because I never have.

The height standard of the UK show whippet in dogs is actually 20" but the WCRA allows for 21" dogs. In showing the height is considered a fault and is judged as such but the ONLY disqualifying fault for a show whippet is lack of two normally descended testicles. Yet the WCRA do not consider this to be a fault.

Clearly the two organisations don't have the same disqualification rules. I don't and haven't challenged the WCRA's rules. I race my dogs by the WCRA rules. I don't break their rules because I AM NOT A CHEAT.

>And if you are a breeder of show whippets, and show your oversized dogs in the ring, why would you be miffed that the WCRA choses to remain within the whippet standard height restriction for the purposes of racing?

I'm not miffed. I've never for instance asked a club to race Bean who is over the weight limit as given by the WCRA. I don't complain about this being unfair to ANYONE! I've never even asked for the rules to be changed at a club. I have never ever asked for preferential treatment or asked for rules to be bent in my favour. Your implication is that I am that sort of person. Well you are wrong.

I am NOT seeking and never have sought to import a racing whippet from the US or Europe simply because I don't see the need for myself to do so. If someone chooses to do so then that's their business and because I don't look to see the worst in everyone I would presume that they have good, honest reasons for wanting to do so. (In fact in the recent case I know that to be true.)

 

[Judy]

Carmel - I have read back through this thread and Beejay has definitley not questioned the integrity of the WCRA (and in fact I know that she doesn't). I am not sure that you were really addressing the whole post to Beejay personally but it does read as if you are due to the fact that it starts with her name. It might be best to make things a bit clearer.

 

[tlewis]

>I'm not opposed to new blood, as long as the dogs have gone through quarantine.

What quarantine is that. From the USA it takes a rabies shot and a blood test at six months. Did the UK re instate quarantine?

>Thus I can see no advantage to having oversized, overseas dogs imported for >breeding purposes.

Why do you assume that an import would be oversized? The dam of my present litter raced and weighs 28 lbs. (Picture in the thread The Real Deil")

The advantage could be that the import might increase speed ,( you are racing are you not) and widen your gene pool. Or are you saying that ped racing whippets are as fast as they are going to get no matter what you do?

 

[Strike Whippets]

Well I am getting well and truly pissed off with all of this :angry: ......On one hand I'm being told I am trying to cheat by importing a new line,........ and on the other hand I am being told its a really good idea as it will widen and diversify our gene pool (and just for the record this is by people who do know what they are on about, and have raced for years :thumbsup: ).............For anyone who is interested .......YES I am going to import at some stage and YES I will compete at club racing, lure coursing and anything else this over sized, over weight non ped Whippet (well thats what some of you keep insisting she'll be)...wants to, and is allowed to compete in .......She may even go to Crufts as she'll be able to race and clear at our club :thumbsup: .........And as it seems its going to be impossible for ANY imported Whippet to obtain a passport then I may as well import the line "I" like :thumbsup: .......Thankyou .......Hannah...... :cheers:

 

[BeeJay]

Well that's killed that discussion dead then Hannah.

 

[Judy]

(w00t) Yeah! go girl! I think the world should consider itself well and truely told

 

[Strike Whippets]

sorry :b ........I think this is all going round in circles :wacko: ........Until an import is over here and competing against our dogs then most of this is guess work with some spitefulness thrown in ......Just my honest opinion

 

[Paul Melia]

Why import a whippet on the basis of guesswork? Seems a lot of money and effort and hassle with the relevant authorities to add 'fresh' genes to the genepool. If only hybrid vigour is required, there has to be plenty of available whippets in the UK that would meet that need.

Best of luck with your project.

 

[Strike Whippets]

I want to import a racing line, as i wanted a completly different line for racing (w00t) (and i don't want to spend at least 3 generations and @ 6 years after out crossing to our slower coursing or show lines, befor having something fast enough to seriously race ).........Our Whippet gene pools are getting smaller, so it'll kill two birds with one stone so to speak .........Plus I love the sheer powerful look of the American racers, and i'm down right nosey :lol:

 

[Judy]

But unlike many of you, do not think that winners beget winners as our WCRA champions fail to follow that ethos when used in breeding programmes.

That made me think so I jiggled my database a bit and came up with the following -

Out of all the dogs born in the last 10 years (I went from 1/1/94) 60 have been made up to WCRCh. Of those, 50 had at least one WCRCh parent (34 had 1 Rch parent and 16 had 2 Rch Parents). Only 10 had neither parent being titled.

I'm not sure how much can be read into that though as I dont know what proportion of dogs racing had Rch parents and what proportion hadn't. I would need a list of all passported dogs to work that one out. You would have to take into consideration that a lot of people when mating a non titled bitch will go to a titled dog as generally only the best dogs are used at stud.

It would suggest however that winners do indeed beget winners and that the old ethos of breeding the best to the best does work on the whole, at least with a trait which can be objectively measured, such as speed. JMHO.

 

[Smiffy@VeronnaV]

Please note: the following comments are NOT directed at any one at all!! They are just - observations.

You are dead right, I don't trust the rabies vaccine, and come to that, neither does DEfra, when it suits them. View the web site and see their advice relating to the outbreak in France!! Unless they have removed it because it's contetious of course. I like quarantine, because there are parasites abroad in the world which we didn't have, (the past tense is not a mistake) due to being an island.

If you have pedigree whippets which are also racing whippets, and one of that line finds its way to these UK shores, and the said dog is within the standard, and acceptable to the committee of the club at which said dog is going to trial, run, race. Then good luck to you and the new owner. But therein lies the rub. Because unless the line which is imported is acceptable to the WCRA, then that line won't be able to run in the Champs. And if we take Judy's stats, that champs beget Champs, how is this new blood going to be infused into the gene pool? It's not going to have that precious title is it? And so be included as part of a breeding programme. And if it can't run at the champs, one would have to assume that any progeny would have the same hurdle as well- for at least five generations or 10 years min?? Which brings me full circle too!!!!! As it would seem it's going to take time to breed a champion, be it from home-bred or imported lines. And one doesn't have to be a Methusala of the whippet world to work that one out!

Of course an owner can take the imported pedigree dog or a home bred pedigree to pedigree dog shows, the owner may even take it to Crufts, but to do that under the racing or coursing group, the whippet has to have run at a WCRA affiliated track and won, or coursed under WCC rules and won. This isn't spite, this is just the way the system operates at present, and if I have misunderstood the system, I'm sure some good soul will clarify the position.

If the selective breeding is so successful, what I want to know is why there are not more champions from the same litter on the race track in the UK? For if, as Judy's stats show, champs beget champs, why aren't they all, or at least most of the progeny from the same litter, champs? Because racing involves no arbitrary judgement, it's the best dog on the track on the day. So it would not be unreasonable to assume that from a litter most of them will be excellent racers. Indeed, winners of races, if the performance of their parents are used as the base line. If the gene pool for the pedigree racing whippet is getting smaller, then maybe there is a need to address the factors that people use when looking to their breeding programmes. So if people tend to favour the champion stock for their selective programmes then maybe the system needs to be altered to widen the gene pool!! :luck:

 

[Scott Frodsham]

Of course an owner can take the imported pedigree dog or a home bred pedigree to pedigree dog shows, the owner may even take it to Crufts, but to do that under the racing or coursing group, the whippet has to have run at a WCRA affiliated track and won, or coursed under WCC rules and won.  This isn't spite, this is just the way the system operates at present, and if I have misunderstood the system, I'm sure some good soul will clarify the position.

Hmmm I don't think that this happens in the real world! I know of many dogs that compete in the racing/coursing groups at shows and the dogs have never raced, let alone seen or coursed a hare! :b

As for winning a race/coursing meeting....... :- "

 

[Mark Roberts]

Of course an owner can take the imported pedigree dog or a home bred pedigree to pedigree dog shows, the owner may even take it to Crufts, but to do that under the racing or coursing group, the whippet has to have run at a WCRA affiliated track and won, or coursed under WCC rules and won. This isn't spite, this is just the way the system operates at present, and if I have misunderstood the system, I'm sure some good soul will clarify the position.

Checks are very rearly if ever done for the racing/coursing classes.

I know 1 girl who recently entered a racing/coursing class on entering the ring she passed the steward her dogs passport only for the steward to turn round and ask "what this" ? unfortunatly the rules are not enforced.

 

[ChrisBishop]

Carmel , I have stayed out of this so far but now i feel is the time for my say !!!!

I have read your previous posts ( not just on this thread ) and have found them to be very pointed .

My question to you is :-

Are these really your veiws or a collection of OTHER peoples as usual ?

I can remember a conversation at our puppy trial night that was just between the people who were sat around a table enjoying a meal and a couple of drinks discussing various whippet items including the import of a dog from the USA that Hannah and myself were going to bring over.Funny how much of what we said on that night found it's way onto this K9 board.

I was always brought up to think that friends were just that "FRIENDS" not people who use you to sound off using your veiws and BACKSTABBING you at any oppertunity !!

On the whole i'm glad that you have at least now shown your true colours and i for one wil never air my veiws within your earshot again. :rant:

Just to put everyone right I DO AGREE with what my wife wants to do and also beleive that a new blood line in our whippet racing community would do it the world of good.

There put that in your pipe and smoke it !!!!!!! :thumbsup: