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Mia the Cavapoo

To spay or not to spay

  • Yes

    Votes: 8 100.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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I never said that the early-desex practices "are happy to neuter puppies at 8 to 16-WO". Naughty, naughty - do not warp my communication.

True, you didn't say they were happy to do it, but you responded to the comment that vets won't consider desexing before 6 months (obviously referring to dogs) with 'actually, over 900 UK vet-practices advertise 'early neuter' services; they S/N entire litters for breeders before the kittens or pups leave for the buyers' homes - pediatric desex, done before or by 16-WO, so long as the pet is healthy & weighs a minimum of 2#'

This clearly implies that over 900 UK vet practices S/N entire litters of kittens or pups. That's quite possibly the case, but it could also be the case that 899 are desexing kittens and only one is desexing pups. So I don't think I twisted your words at all.

OK - I will go back & edit my post assiduously, & in excruciating detail. :p I'll use purple text so no-one can miss the edited bits, shall i?

I think the 'when and if' debate always hinges on two separate issues: health and social good. The advice I get from our local university teaching hospital is that the science suggests it's better for bitches' health in the long term (taking into account multiple factors) and probably not so important for dogs (MAY even be a negative). I have not been through every research paper but expect the professor giving this opinion has. It's all about the best odds. A neutered animal can still get cancer, an un-neutered one live a charmed life to old age. He (the prof) is also of the view that allowing an animal to achieve adult growth before neutering is a reasonable course. However the social good of neutering bitches is obvious throughout the world- if you work in dog rescue it's a painful truth you are confronted with every day. Also that means in some societies early neutering is better than none.
'BVA believes that there is no current scientific evidence [supports] the view that spaying... should take place after the first season. However, [currently] there is insufficient scientific data available to form a position on the early neutering of dogs and bitches.'

I'm surprised that the vets' Assoc says there's "insufficient data". Literally millions of pups & kittens have been pediatrically desexed, in the USA & in Australia, & hundreds of research studies were done in both countries; ped-desex was done by progressive shelters in the U-S beginning in 1972.
There's certainly no dearth of animal subjects, for generating data!

But the OP's dog has aged-past pediatric desex, LOL - it's not possible, so it's moot.

Pediatric desex outside the UK:
ped-desex is, as i said, standard in Australian shelters - I don't know if it's S.O.P. in Oz breed- or all-breed rescues, but if they place pups or kittens, i would expect desex is done B4 the adopter takes possession.

Pediatric desex is also standard in every shelter & rescue in the U-S that places kittens & pups, except a few underfunded & overcrowded shelters in rural areas, termed "high-kill shelters" - there, when overcrowding reaches critical mass, entire litters of perfectly-healthy, normal kittens & pups are killed, plus all adults who've overstayed their welcome.

In 3rd-world nations, the problem of surplus pets is often simplistically "solved" by such horrors as poison-bait distributed on the streets, a boom-&-bust pattern that repeats endlessly. :(
The Blue Cross is making great strides in India; they've humanely reduced the number of homeless street-dogs, & also cut sharply the number of human rabies-deaths, by vaccinating & desexing street dogs.

For extra credit: re pet-overpopn in the USA -
That overcrowding & lack of money, space, & resources in rural shelters is precisely why Boston as a city, & New England as a region, absorbs so many out-of-state or imported rescued pets: at 75% regionally, the area has the highest proportion of S/N cats & dogs in the U-S; thus kittens & pups are rare in shelters, here. To get a kitten or puppy in New England, U can plunk down a good chunk of coin for a purebred, or U can adopt out of state.

Island dogs from the Carib, from Hawai'i, hound-mixes from the Southeast & Central U-S, purebreds via breed-rescue, are all adopted here; most often as young adults, 9-MO to 2-YO. Puppies & kittens are a very scarce commodity, locally. :) And that's a good thing.

Wholesale slaughter is what we're trying to prevent - pet overpopn is still a serious problem, in the U-S. We've advanced from killing 15-million surplus pets annually, for over 10-years, to killing 3 to 5-million dogs & cats each year, nationally. That's a huge improvement, but it's still too many deaths.
They're euthanized, usually via injection.

- terry

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I am quoting here, in full, the RSPCA's reply to an inquiry about pediatric desex AKA 'early neuter', done by the RSPCA, in their own surgery.

QUOTE, bold & color added to emphasize significant details:

Thank you for your enquiry. Neutering at six-weeks only occurs at our Greater Manchester Animal Hospital, & only under exceptional circumstances.

David Yates, director of the RSPCA's Greater Manchester Animal Hospital, said:
"Neutering dogs at six-weeks-old may sound upsetting to people, but we can reassure them that it is only done in a limited number of cases, for absolutely genuine reasons, & with positive results - offering those animals a chance to be quickly rehomed, & given a loving home.

In Manchester in the 80s / 90s, we had a major overpopulation problem with cats and dogs - unplanned mating, large numbers being put down, animal centres saturated, high numbers of road traffic accidents, & high incidence of mammary tumours. While these are still problem issues, early neutering helps counter them, and must be judged against the alternatives.

Our policy is based fully on sound, peer-reviewed science. There are many benefits associated with early neutering. In fact, it can be better for the animals' welfare - for example, the surgery is quicker, there are fewer complications, & the experience is less traumatic when carried out on young dogs.

All RSPCA dogs
[Note; he's referring to 'pups', not to *dogs*] are neutered before they are rehomed, with the exception of a few breeds which some evidence shows are more prone to incontinence after spaying. By carrying out the procedure as early as possible, we reduce the time the animal has to spend in a stressful kennel environment, & are able to get them settled into a loving new home more quickly.
The RSPCA re-homes thousands of unwanted dogs and puppies every year, and we recommend neutering as a good way to help reduce the problem of unwanted litters. If scientific evidence showed that this policy was wrong, then obviously - obviously - we would reconsider. But at the moment, we are dealing with a very real problem with a sympathetic, practical and scientifically-backed policy.
The RSPCA generally neuters 'owned' dogs at around 12-14 weeks of age. At the Greater Manchester Animal Hospital, up to 50 stray/ abandoned dogs a year are neutered at six weeks of age."

Thank you again for your concern.

Kind regards
RSPCA Enquiries Service


I here underscore that every one of the reasons director Yates lists for pediatric desex are precisely those that i gave for early-desex as SOP, here in the U-S: pet-overpopn, unplanned litters, swamped shelters & rescues... but at the same time, U cannot hold pups till they're 6-MO for desex at the "traditional" age, U want them out of the shelter runs & out of the foster homes, to make room for the next batch.

In the USA, most minimum-age laws are 8-wks or 56-DO, including Federal & most states; Virginia is an exception, as with so much, & lets pups or kittens leave mom & siblings at 7-WO or 49-DO. Ergo, pups & kittens in shelters & rescues are desexed at 8-WO, before being offered for adoption.
Any healthy pup or kitten who weighs at least 2# is a safe candidate for S/N.

Mr Yates also notes the sharp increase in mammary tumors as another reason for 'early neuter'. Additionally, he lists the same advantages for the younger pups: safer, shorter procedure, fewer complications, & less trauma; all of which, as I've said, have been documented by data.

I would like to direct the reader's attention to the last paragraph of Mr Yates' quote -
"The RSPCA generally neuters 'owned' dogs at around 12-14 weeks of age."

If it's acceptable practice when the RSPCA does it, why is it seemingly so horrifying, when U-S shelters, rescues, & yes, breeders, desex pups before they leave for their owners' homes? :confused: It's not as tho it only happens in the benighted, ignorant New World; RSPCA vets obviously believe that 3-MO is fine, or as Mr Yates said, "we would reconsider", & 'our policy is based fully on sound, peer-reviewed science.'

I've provided the scientific references many times over. Now, it's apparent that the RSPCA also uses pediatric desex - & uses the selfsame data to support it. :p Surprise! :D

- terry

The RSPCA has been criticised for their approach to this by Battersea Dogs Home, the Kennel Club's geneticist, the vet director of Dogs Trust and the Blue Cross. Source: RSPCA Shock Admission Unfortunately there's a lot of concern about their rates of euthanasia, their zeal in seizing animals from their owners and then charging them 'bed & board', and so on and so forth. No doubt a certain amount of this is unfounded, but public confidence in them is pretty low, so I wouldn't put too much weight on what they say.
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WARNING: this is a detour from the topic, in response to this link -

posted by @JudyN , which BTW was chopped-up, & i've repaired it. :) I am responding because of the source of that info.

if the "dawg lissener", above, has the initials S R, i discussed several things with him, some years ago - problem was, the 'discussion' was all on my side; his responses were so vituperative & personal, not only to me but to many other forum-members, that he was barred permanently from that forum.
Of course, he also returned several times, under new user-names - & was, again, banned. :rolleyes: He was also involved in a very messy altercation with Dogs Today magazine - the editor, publisher, at least one writer, etc.

I initially encountered him in all innocence, when a woman posted to ask if we on the forum thot the training-aid that had been recommended to her, was a good idea. // Her dog was a sound-sensitive Rough Collie who was a bit timid, & would try to bolt home when startled by loud or sharp noises. He was otherwise fine on leash, did not pull, lag, balk, etc. He just startled easily.

The recommended "aid" was similar to this:
Screen Shot 2018-05-31 at 3.08.27 PM.png


I told the owner that i thot this was a very bad idea, not advisable for many reasons, & i explained them.
That's when the "inventor" showed up, & his comments were, briefly & in sum, incendiary.

here's himself, explaining a McGyver imitation & how-to:
Pulling on the Lead - Page 2

These are some of the problem-behaviors where he has used this:
"...a variety of problems, 'Walking to Heel', 'Jumping Up', 'Barking', 'Nipping & Mouthing' - both puppy and adult dogs - 'Food Snatching', & to aid 'Recall' and 'General Obedience'. I have also used it successfully for some cases of interdog aggression, food stealing, jumping on furniture, etc."
Apparently, a couple of small bells & a clip cure practically everything. :rolleyes:

The 'dog listener' of the program & book by the same name is female; Jan Fennel has repudiated any connection to the male "dawg lissener".
================ END DETOUR ================

re the topic at hand, if that's who i think it is, i can only say that IMO & IME, he is not a reliable source of accurate info.
- terry

IMO & IME, he is not a reliable source of accurate info.
- terry

Fair enough - that's why I didn't include his personal opinion of early neutering in my list. But there's enough grist there for someone to realise that there may well be other, respected, animal organisations who disagree with the RSPCA's stance, so we shouldn't regard the RSPCA's opinion as the only, or necessarily the correct, one. And they then have the option to investigate their policies and the reasons behind them.

I am also going to ask, yet again -
why are we still discussing pediatric desex on this thread? - from the photo, it looks to me as if her dog is already past 16-WO, making any spay now "pre-pubertal" at the earliest. :confused: Her dog has already aged-out of 'pediatric', unless she's astonishingly precocious & my eyes have deceived me. :D Which is, of course, possible!
I could be totally wrong, & she's only 8-WO, photographed against 2/3 size furnishings for very petite people.

- t

why are we still discussing pediatric desex on this thread?

Maybe because you brought it up? In post 9 you suggested neutering and estimated her age at around 5 months, post 10 it was pointed out that most vets in the UK won't neuter before 6 months then from post 11 onwards you provided your many views on the perceived benefits of early neutering?

I am also going to ask, yet again -
why are we still discussing pediatric desex on this thread?


Maybe because you brought it and continue to post “ white noise “ information when ever someone says different to you

There is a clear difference between what they do in the US to the UK and Europe , most vets here will not neuter A pup that is less than 6 mths or had their first season, also pedigree cat breeders in the UK DO NOT spay or neuter their kittens before they sell them to new homes, they sell with and endorsement which states they will receive “registration papers “when they spay Nd neuter at the appropriate age....

Also most rescues here do not have the funds to spay Nd neuter every animal that comes through the door before they go to new homes, many go with a voucher towards the cost of spay and nueter.
I’ve done some tidying on this thread. The conversations are turning into more of a debate and I don’t think they are benefiting the original poster.

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