Mia the Cavapoo

[Carolyn ashworth]

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[JoanneF]

Female dogs, with every season, develop an increased risk of pyometra so for that alone, I would always choose spay if I had a female.

 

[Carolyn ashworth]

Female dogs, with every season, develop an increased risk of pyometra so for that alone, I would always choose spay if I had a female.

Thank you. I’m agonising as some reseRch shows the deprivation of Sc hormones increases the chance of endocrine cancer

 

[Mad Murphy]

Yes, for the same reason as JoanneF.

 

[merlina]

First of all: OMG she's beautiful. Second as soon as she's mature I'd probably spay her. Health-wise better long term prospects from what I've read (certainly for bitches though not for dogs necessarily). Also she'll create havoc among the local boys a couple of times a year. Bad all round!

 

[Carolyn ashworth]

First of all: OMG she's beautiful. Second as soon as she's mature I'd probably spay her. Health-wise better long term prospects from what I've read (certainly for bitches though not for dogs necessarily). Also she'll create havoc among the local boys a couple of times a year. Bad all round!

Thank you!

First of all: OMG she's beautiful. Second as soon as she's mature I'd probably spay her. Health-wise better long term prospects from what I've read (certainly for bitches though not for dogs necessarily). Also she'll create havoc among the local boys a couple of times a year. Bad all round!

thank you! Very helpful

 

[Teddy560]

She is lovely. She looks like a very dainty, doe-eyed golden cocker I know what you mean about the agonising bit. My puppy is 5 months and is booked in to be castrated as we have my Mum's bitch who stays frequently and I don't want extra problems like him going roaming and marking etc.

 

[Violet Turner]

How sweet She does not look like a cavapoo more the caviller king Charles than the poodle.

 

[leashedForLife]

.

I voted yes, & IMO / IME, it's best to spay her before her 1st estrus, not after - for 2 reasons,
1: her health & lifespan, & 2: problematic complications of scheduling between estrus cycles.

health & lifespan:
* Pyometra is potentially fatal, & any intact F is at risk as long as they are intact.
* UTIs are most-likely during the 90-days post-estrus, twice each year.
* her health, behavior, & life is thus dictated by estrus for 8-mos of the 12, every year - can she be off-leash, can she be in the garden unsupervised, can she play with other dogs, is this discharge estrous flow or Pyometra?, Is her pink urine estrous, or a UTI?,...
* breast AKA mammary cancer is 4X as common in F dogs as in F humans.
* in the USA, ~7 in 10 dogs diagnosed with breast cancer are put down at the same appt - X-rays show the cancer has already spread to her lungs, & once metastasized, it's untreatable. This is not owner neglect - by the time the dog shows symptoms, most have metastatic tumors. [stat: 68%]

scheduling complications:
* she may develop a false pregnancy, with wt-gain, lactation, she collects & guards small objects as 'puppies', etc, which takes hormones to treat, & can last for a month or more.
* she may have a split estrus or run longer than the norm, or be irregular or hard to define - bitches who have silent heats are very hard to recognize as being IN estrus, so defining when she's OUT is even harder.
* U don't want to spay her whilst estrus is on - bleeding is heavier, it's a riskier surgery.

Ergo, spaying at 5 to 5.5-MO is safer, avoids scheduling issues, & eliminates 99.99% of the chance of mammary tumors.

a tertiary consideration is that she's simply not a potential dam - she's not going to produce pups who will "better the breed", as she's an F1 crossbred. Mating her only increases the random scramble of genes; her pups will not resemble her very much, except in size [assuming the sire is similar in size].

=========================
QUOTE, Carolyn ashworth

... I’m agonizing, as some [research] shows the deprivation of Sc hormones increases the chance of endocrine cancer.
_________________________________
.
What are "Sc hormones", please? I don't recognize that term.
Also, i don't know which "endocrine cancer" U refer to - there are many glands, not just one.


_________________________________
QUOTE,
The most common sort of endocrine cancer is thyroid cancer, which begins in the thyroid gland. There are also some types of pancreatic cancer ... classified as endocrine tumours. Some tumours that grow in an endocrine
gland are benign, which means they're not cancerous.
Jul 31, 2011
Source: Endocrine Cancer - Cancer Council Victoria
https://www.cancervic.org.au/cancer-information/cancer.../cancer.../endocrine_cancer
______________________________________


I know of no research that says spayed Fs are doomed to become hypothyroid, but if she does, thyroid-hormones are cheap & safe; in intact Fs, Pyo & breast-cancer are far more common than hypothyroid in spayed Fs, & either one can be lethal. Hypothyroid isn't fatal - it's fixable.
U're contrasting a low-risk of treatable disease, with a high risk of potentially-fatal disease.

Every heat raises her risk of mammary cancer, & Pyo is an ever-present risk, so long as she's intact. For 6-mos of every year, an intact F is at high-risk of UTIs & kidney infections. Heck, a normal pregnancy & full-term whelping in a healthy F is higher-risk than an adult spay-surgery [OHE], which in turn is higher risk than a pubertal OHE, which is more risk than a pre-pubertal OHE, which is riskier than pediatric spay-surgery, done by 12-WO / 3-MO.

Young pups fast briefly, are under GA for much-shorter times & lower dosage, awaken faster & are up & eating quickly, heal faster, & bleed less. They rarely need post-op pain control, & have fewer complications than desex at any older age. That applies to both sexes, not just Fs.

U don't state her age, but in the photo she appears to be between 4 & 5-MO. If she were mine, i'd schedule her desex ASAP - as younger is actually safer.
- terry

.

 

[Teddy560]

.

I voted yes, & IMO / IME, it's best to spay her before her 1st estrus, not after - for 2 reasons,
1: her health & lifespan, & 2: problematic complications of scheduling between estrus cycles.

health & lifespan:
* Pyometra is potentially fatal, & any intact F is at risk as long as they are intact.
* UTIs are most-likely during the 90-days post-estrus, twice each year.
* her health, behavior, & life is thus dictated by estrus for 8-mos of the 12, every year - can she be off-leash, can she be in the garden unsupervised, can she play with other dogs, is this discharge estrous flow or Pyometra?, Is her pink urine estrous, or a UTI?,...
* breast AKA mammary cancer is 4X as common in F dogs as in F humans.
* in the USA, ~7 in 10 dogs diagnosed with breast cancer are put down at the same appt - X-rays show the cancer has already spread to her lungs, & once metastasized, it's untreatable. This is not owner neglect - by the time the dog shows symptoms, most have metastatic tumors. [stat: 68%]

scheduling complications:
* she may develop a false pregnancy, with wt-gain, lactation, she collects & guards small objects as 'puppies', etc, which takes hormones to treat, & can last for a month or more.
* she may have a split estrus or run longer than the norm, or be irregular or hard to define - bitches who have silent heats are very hard to recognize as being IN estrus, so defining when she's OUT is even harder.
* U don't want to spay her whilst estrus is on - bleeding is heavier, it's a riskier surgery.

Ergo, spaying at 5 to 5.5-MO is safer, avoids scheduling issues, & eliminates 99.99% of the chance of mammary tumors.

a tertiary consideration is that she's simply not a potential dam - she's not going to produce pups who will "better the breed", as she's an F1 crossbred. Mating her only increases the random scramble of genes; her pups will not resemble her very much, except in size [assuming the sire is similar in size].

=========================
QUOTE, Carolyn ashworth

... I’m agonizing, as some [research] shows the deprivation of Sc hormones increases the chance of endocrine cancer.
_________________________________
.
What are "Sc hormones", please? I don't recognize that term.
Also, i don't know which "endocrine cancer" U refer to - there are many glands, not just one.


_________________________________
QUOTE,
The most common sort of endocrine cancer is thyroid cancer, which begins in the thyroid gland. There are also some types of pancreatic cancer ... classified as endocrine tumours. Some tumours that grow in an endocrine
gland are benign, which means they're not cancerous.
Jul 31, 2011
Source: Endocrine Cancer - Cancer Council Victoria
https://www.cancervic.org.au/cancer-information/cancer.../cancer.../endocrine_cancer
______________________________________


I know of no research that says spayed Fs are doomed to become hypothyroid, but if she does, thyroid-hormones are cheap & safe; in intact Fs, Pyo & breast-cancer are far more common than hypothyroid in spayed Fs, & either one can be lethal. Hypothyroid isn't fatal - it's fixable.
U're contrasting a low-risk of treatable disease, with a high risk of potentially-fatal disease.

Every heat raises her risk of mammary cancer, & Pyo is an ever-present risk, so long as she's intact. For 6-mos of every year, an intact F is at high-risk of UTIs & kidney infections. Heck, a normal pregnancy & full-term whelping in a healthy F is higher-risk than an adult spay-surgery [OHE], which in turn is higher risk than a pubertal OHE, which is more risk than a pre-pubertal OHE, which is riskier than pediatric spay-surgery, done by 12-WO / 3-MO.

Young pups fast briefly, are under GA for much-shorter times & lower dosage, awaken faster & are up & eating quickly, heal faster, & bleed less. They rarely need post-op pain control, & have fewer complications than desex at any older age. That applies to both sexes, not just Fs.

U don't state her age, but in the photo she appears to be between 4 & 5-MO. If she were mine, i'd schedule her desex ASAP - as younger is actually safer.
- terry

.

Not sure where the op lives but most vets in the UK won't consider desexing until at least 6 months

 

[leashedForLife]

QUOTE, Teddy560:

Not sure where the op lives, but most vets in the UK won't consider desex until [the pet is] at least 6-MO.
____________________________________________
.

actually, over 900 UK vet-practices advertise 'early neuter' services for kittens, per a scheme by Cats' Protection; they S/N entire litters of kittens for breeders before the kittens leave for the buyers' homes - this is pediatric desex, done before or by 16-WO, so long as the pet is healthy & weighs a minimum of 2#.
I would enquire of these vets, who already offer pediatric desex to felines, if they would perform a spay before 1st-estrus, to optimize the dog's safety per Pyo & mammary neoplasms.

BVA Policy - Neutering of cats and dogs

QUOTE from above,
The LINK: Cats Protection Early Neutering Register is a search facility that allows the public to find the nearest veterinary practice which has indicated to Cats Protection it is happy to neuter cats up to or around 4 months of age (currently, over 900 practices are signed up across the UK).
The finder will search within a 15 mile radius of the postcode entered.
There is an option for vets to download a sign-up form.

specific to bitches, QUOTE -

Welfare benefits of spaying for bitches

• No false pregnancy, which is common in bitches and can occur after each season. It can result in distress to the bitch, and anguish to the owner. A bitch undergoing a false pregnancy may produce milk, lose her appetite, and exhibit adverse behavioural problems.
• Pyometra and other uterine diseases are avoided - unspayed bitches can develop pyometra later in life, which then requires life-saving surgery. Spaying a healthy bitch does not involve the risks of spaying an older bitch with toxaemia arising from the pyometra.
• Reduces risk of mammary tumours, as the relative risk of mammary tumours increases progressively with each successive season. Bitches spayed before the second season have a lower prevalence of mammary tumours than entire bitches.
• No oestrus:
  oestrus (season or 'heat') occurs about every six months in entire bitches. During this time, bitches have to be kept away from other dogs, and walked under close supervision.

There are some reservations about spaying, but most are not justified when examined more closely. Spaying may predispose to weight increase, but dietary management can control this. Urinary incontinence can occasionally be associated with spaying, but whether that relates to the age at which the bitch was spayed is unknown.
Spaying is irreversible, & a decision to spay a young bitch may be postponed by controlling her oestrus with drugs under veterinary direction.
BVA believes the benefits of spaying a bitch outweigh any potential risks that are involved with the procedure.
____________________________________________________


I'd rather spay my F pup than give her masculinizing hormones to shut-down estrus - the Akita bitch who showed opposite Moon at the UKC Centennial Show was on them; it was the bitch-puppy class, they were both 9-MO, & her competitor looked so doggy that i referred to her as a dog when i spoke to the judge, LOL - the judge gave me a pitying look, as if i didn't know what genitalia were.

re "pyometra later in life", my Akita bitch had Pyo after her 2nd heat, at just 12-MO, & i've had clients whose bitches had Pyo at 6 to 8-MO. There's no warranty that she'll be middle-aged, B4 she develops Pyo! I don't know why the BVA said that; Pyo can occur at any time.


Pediatric desex is the standard in shelters & rescues across Australia, & the USA. Breeders are just catching up.

- terry

.

 

[leashedForLife]

.

Bitches spayed prior to first-estrus have a 0.5% risk of breast cancer; that's virtually nil.
In contrast, over 1 in 4 intact-F dogs will develop mammary cancer in their lifetime.

mammary tumors are the most-common neoplasm in intact female dogs, & 50% are malignant.
source:
Moe, L: "Population-based incidence of mammary tumors in some dog breeds"
J Reprod Fertil Suppl, 2001; issue 57, pages 439 - 443. [PubMed]

The risk of breast-cancer increased from 0.5%, in pre-estrus spayed dogs, to 8% in Fs spayed after their 1st heat, & 26% in Fs spayed after their 2nd heat; thus, the increase in risk is very-quickly significant.

full-text study, 2015:
Epidemiological Study of Mammary Tumors in Female Dogs Diagnosed during the Period 2002-2012: A Growing Animal Health Problem

.

 

[JudyN]

actually, over 900 UK vet-practices advertise 'early neuter' services.

That's for cats, which is hardly comparable. From the link you gave: 'the Cats Protection Early Neutering Register is a search facility that allows the public to find the nearest veterinary practice which has indicated to Cats Protection it is happy to neuter cats up to or at around 4 months of age (there are currently over 900 practices signed up across the UK)'

Is there anywhere that says that 900 vet practices are happy to neuter female dogs that early?

Also from that page: 'BVA believes that there is no current scientific evidence to support the view that the spaying of bitches should take place after the first season. However, at the current time there is insufficient scientific data available to form a position on the early neutering of dogs and bitches.'

So the arguments will carry on for some time yet....

 

[leashedForLife]

QUOTE, JudyN:

...
Is there anywhere that says that 900 vet practices are happy to neuter female dogs that early?
...
____________________________
.

minor correction, @JudyN - it's "over" 900.

And no, nothing says that every one of those over-900 vet practices are slavering at the opportunity to spay 8 to 16-WO F pups, but also, nothing stops a puppy-owner who is in the U.K. - which, lest we forget, i am not - from contacting the closest 3 or 4 of those vet-practices, & asking if they'll spay their F pup.

Surely it's easier for a local resident to ask a subset of vets who already do pediatric desex on kittens, if they'll do pre-pubertal spay on a F pup? I'm many-miles & 5 time-zones away - do U want me to do it for U?

- terry
.

 

[leashedForLife]

.

I found factual errors in the UK vet literature, which claims that "no other country" has as many S/N pets as the UK; 54% of owned dogs & cats in the UK are desexed - that leaves 46% of owned cats & dogs, intact.

In my eyes, that's not very impressive; in New England, 75% of owned pets are S/N, & in metro-Boston, it's 90% & up, depending upon what neighborhood U're in - in affluent areas, cats & dogs are virtually-exclusively adopted, mostly from out of state, & S/N before they're transferred to the adopter.
In poorer neighborhoods, owners don't spend the money to desex Ms, especially; it's more imperative to spay a F than neuter a M, so M cats are often indoor / outdoor in poor areas, 'cuz they hit puberty, start spraying, & are tossed out vs neutered. Also, in poorer neighborhoods, residents are more likely to get a dog "as protection", even if only to bark at noises off; they get M dogs in preference to Fs, & if they're intact, they keep them so. The fairytale that intact-Ms are more likely to defend U is very much alive.

In more & more large metro-areas of the U-S, mandatory desex laws have already been passed; Germany & Australia are also largely mandatory S/N, & Belgium is the 1st country to pass a nationwide law that requires virtually every cat to be S/N.
Surely with mandated desex, over 54% of owned cats & dogs in Oz & Germany are neutered?


Legislation | Jennifer Skiff
jenniferskiff.com/legislation/
A majority of states/ councils/ shires in the USA, Australia, & Germany (countrywide) now have mandatory
spay and neuter laws. The goal is to decrease the ...


Aus:
[PDF]Mandatory Desexing
www.naiaonline.org/uploads/.../Mandatory_Desexing_Statement_Dec071.pdf
The Australian Veterinary Association supports desexing of companion animals. ...
Make desexing mandated by law. ... permit systems ('spay or pay') ...

USA:
Brief Summary of State Spay and Neuter Laws | Animal Legal ...
Brief Summary of State Spay and Neuter Laws | Animal Legal & Historical Center
Summary:
A majority of states have enacted laws requiring releasing agencies to sterilize cats and dogs they adopt out in an effort to reduce the number of ...

Germany & cats, 2015:
Neuter your cat or put it on a leash, says German government ...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/.../germany/.../Neuter-your-cat-or-put-it-on-a-leash-says-Ge...
Nov 19, 2015 -
[Intact] pet tomcats are causing an overpopulation of stray cats - and so ... Pet-owners in Germany may soon have to keep their cats on a leash, under ... "Unlike wild animals, cats are a domesticated species that is not ...

German laws re pets:
Everything you need to know about having a pet in Germany - The Local
https://www.thelocal.de/.../everything-you-need-to-know-about-having-a-pet-in-germ...
QUOTE,
...ownership of certain dog breeds is restricted in Germany. Although it varies a little from state to state, this list usually includes 'Kampfhunde', meaning 'fighting dogs' , breeds like Pitbull-Terriers, Staffordshire-Bull terriers, American Staffordshire-Terriers, Bull-terriers, & any related crossbreeds. For a full list of categories for each state LINK: click here.
...dogs, cats and ferrets need their own passports, &... must also be microchipped by a vet; pet passports should [include] the animal's vaccinations. There is no need for your pets to be quarantined on arrival... if they are up to date with the proper vaccinations (rabies for dogs, cats, & ferrets; avian flu for birds).
...puppies and kittens under 15 weeks old LINK: cannot be brought to the EU.
Dogs in Germany must be licensed, & are subject to a 'dog tax'. ... Dog owners pay a [higher] dog tax per animal, if they own multiple dogs... the aim of the tax is to keep dog ownership down. If your dog is adopted, you are exempt from dog-tax for the first year... while cats must be licensed, they are not subject to any... tax.

The EU requires dogs & cats have either a clearly-visible tattoo or a microchip, matching the # on the exam certificate. Chips are implanted before their initial rabies-shot; only pets tattooed before July 3, 2011, do not need a chip.
In Germany, dog-owners must buy a liability policy, to cover damage or injury done by their dog.
Certain breeds (and crossbreeds) of dogs are special cases, in Germany. The rules vary from state to state, but broadly, the import of APBTs, SBTs & AmStaffs, or any cross thereof, is banned. Several states have a Category 2 Kampfhund, which includes Rotts.
Category 2 Kampfhund breeds or crossbreeds must pass a "viciousness" test. If they pass, they're treated like any other dog; if they fail, they face a high licensing fee, must be neutered, muzzled, & leashed when off the owner's property.
LINK: www.zoll.de has a detailed list of banned breeds & other dog-law info.

===============================

Belgium is a special case; an entire country has legislated S/N for practically every cat in the nation.

2010, Belgium:
Belgium plans to neuter most cats, as feline population explodes
Belgium plans to neuter most cats as feline population explodes


The multi-year plan for 2012 thru 2016 began with every shelter-cat & adopted kitten, added owned pets of all ages, then non-purebred kittens, purebred kittens, & finally, will include all free-roaming cats, owned or not.

Feb-2018:
Belgium is (slowly) sterilizing all its cats
Belgium is (slowly) sterilising all its cats

Today, all newborns must be sterilized before 6-MO; cats entering the country who stay over 30-days must be S/N. Owners are required to microchip, & a central database includes their fertility status. The last group to be S/N by law will include every free-roaming cat, owned or not, feral or not.

- terry

.

 

[JudyN]

minor correction, @JudyN - it's "over" 900.

And no, nothing says that every one of those over-900 vet practices are slavering at the opportunity to spay 8 to 16-WO F pups, but also, nothing stops a puppy-owner who is in the U.K. - which, lest we forget, i am not - from contacting the closest 3 or 4 of those vet-practices, & asking if they'll spay their F pup.

Surely it's easier for a local resident to ask a subset of vets who already do pediatric desex on kittens, if they'll do pre-pubertal spay on a F pup? I'm many-miles & 5 time-zones away - do U want me to do it for U?

- terry

Regardless of whether some vets will neuter 8-16-week-old puppies, using the fact that over 900 practices are happy to neuter cats 'early' to justify the claim that a similar number are also happy to neuter puppies at that age seems unfounded and misleading.

Where did you find the claim that no other country has as many S/N pets as the UK? I can't find it but would be interested to read it as it's certainly not what I'd expect.

 

[JoanneF]

I am guessing S/N means neutered, and I had heard that the Scandinavian countries have a far lower number of neutered pets than the uk - it is simply not considered necessary there for healthy animals (although I personally would rather neuter a female than risk pyometra).

 

[PWDmum]

Regardless of whether some vets will neuter 8-16-week-old puppies, using the fact that over 900 practices are happy to neuter cats 'early' to justify the claim that a similar number are also happy to neuter puppies at that age seems unfounded and misleading.

Where did you find the claim that no other country has as many S/N pets as the UK? I can't find it but would be interested to read it as it's certainly not what I'd expect.

I have to agree, spaying and neutering such young puppies is not normal practice here in the UK ( thankfully) Most vet practices here usually advize after first season, which is still to young in my opinion.

 

[leashedForLife]

QUOTE, PWDmum:

... spaying and neutering such young puppies is not normal practice here in the UK ( thankfully).
Most vet practices here usually advise [spay] after first season, which is still too young, in my opinion.
__________________________
.

@PWDmum -
the kittens are desexed in job-lots for their breeders B4 leaving for the buyers' homes, & as they generally depart at 3-MO, they're usually desexed around 10-WO, to allow them to heal entirely while still in the breeders' possession.

Breeders do this for precisely the same reason that shelters & rescues around the world do pediatric desex: because adopters (or buyers, in the case of purebred kittens in the UK) cannot be trusted to S/N early-enough to prevent pregnancies in F kittens, & siring by M kittens.
Cats are precocious breeders - Fs can be pregnant at 5-MO, thus to be effective in preventing unplanned litters, early desex is imperative. If the pet's already S/N on arrival, it's a fait accompli; no "oops" litters will be hawked by that owner, or dropped off at a crowded shelter.

yes, @JoanneF , desex is abbreviated S/N for "spayed or neutered" - typing that every single time is silly, & when i use 'desexed', ppl seem to think it's too clinical. Ya can't win. I myself prefer 'desexed'.
Also, a surgical spay is ovariohysterectomy = OHE.


I also just finished pointing out why "spay AFTER 1st-estrus" is not optimal:

* the risk of mammary cancer rises from 0.5% to 8% - that's 16 times greater.
Ppl fret over tiny increases in risk, of very-unlikely events; here's a huge increased risk, in a highly-fatal disease with a frequency of 1 in 4 in intact Fs, & it's ignored.

* allowing initial estrus opens scheduling to complications - a split estrus, a pseudopregnancy, a UTI which must clear B4 surgery, a longer-than-usual heat, the owner's own schedule... any one of these delays OHE, pushing it closer to 2nd estrus, & another delay.

Obviously, the owner decides - but if the intention is to prevent Pyo & mammary cancer both, scheduling their spay at 5-MO is both safe & simple. The older she is, the more bleeding of highly-vascular tissues, & the more pain from highly-innervated tissue. That's why pediatric desex has less blood-loss, & is usually pain-free.

cheers,
- terry

.

 

[leashedForLife]

QUOTE, JudyN:

Regardless of whether some vets will neuter 8-16-week-old puppies, using the fact that over 900 practices are happy to neuter cats 'early' to justify the claim that a similar number are also happy to neuter puppies at that age seems unfounded and misleading.
____________________________________
.

@JudyN -
I never said that the early-desex practices "are happy to neuter puppies at 8 to 16-WO". Naughty, naughty - do not warp my communication.

I said that those practices which advertise early-desex would most-likely be willing to spay a F dog before her 1st estrus, per this specific owner & their dog, in this thread. I hope that is now crystal-clear to all readers, as i can't express it any more clearly.
I did not say, "all 900-plus practices will assuredly do pediatric desex on puppies". For all i know, *some* of those UK-practices may be feline-only specialists - we have them here, too, & they cater exclusively to feline patients.

"spay before 1st-estrus" has multiple salient advantages for both dog & owner.

- terry

.