Movement

[liza]

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what should judges look for in a whippets movement

as i have recently been told some strange things in what to look for in the whippet movement

 

[marier05]

Looking forward to seeing the replies to this. I could comment on this, as i have in my mind how i like a whippet to move but ill leave it for the experts.

Marie.

 

[aslan]

Liza - can you be a bit more specific in what you're looking for - it would take a lot of typing to discuss whippet movement in general - I suspect that's why there are no answers so far - it's a pretty broad question....

 

[liza]

Liza - can you be a bit more specific in what you're looking for - it would take a lot of typing to discuss whippet movement in general - I suspect that's why there are no answers so far - it's a pretty broad question....

i asked this question as i have been told to ignore back and front movement just look at the profile i was told it doesent matter if a dog / bitch is going close behind or throwing their fronts as long as the profile is correct

i myself was told when you judge you judge front back and profile

to me a whippet should have a good drive from behind and a good front extension

 

[miawhip]

Liza - can you be a bit more specific in what you're looking for - it would take a lot of typing to discuss whippet movement in general - I suspect that's why there are no answers so far - it's a pretty broad question....

i asked this question as i have been told to ignore back and front movement just look at the profile i was told it doesent matter if a dog / bitch is going close behind or throwing their fronts as long as the profile is correct

i myself was told when you judge you judge front back and profile

to me a whippet should have a good drive from behind and a good front extension

Why not read the standard, if you can not interpret the standard you should not be judging, no where does it say you only judge on profile movement.

 

[bertha]

Liza - can you be a bit more specific in what you're looking for - it would take a lot of typing to discuss whippet movement in general - I suspect that's why there are no answers so far - it's a pretty broad question....

i asked this question as i have been told to ignore back and front movement just look at the profile i was told it doesent matter if a dog / bitch is going close behind or throwing their fronts as long as the profile is correct

i myself was told when you judge you judge front back and profile

to me a whippet should have a good drive from behind and a good front extension

Why not read the standard, if you can not interpret the standard you should not be judging, no where does it say you only judge on profile movement.

The standard does not tell you how to judge!!!!!!!!!!!! It just tells you how a whippet should move.

 

[~JO~]

Gait/Movement

Should possess great freedom of action. In profile should move with a long, easy stride whist holding topline. The forelegs should be thrown forward and low over the ground. Hind legs should come well under the body giving greater propelling power. General movement not to look stilted, high stepping, short or mincing. True coming and going.

 

[JAX]

I find this a a very strange question to come from someone who has been in whippets for so many years, who has been to seminars and has already judged

Who has told you to ingnore `back and front `movement ?

 

[aslan]

You can't ignore the coming and going. Perhaps some judges, because there is more description about the profile movement in the standard, choose to forgive some problems in the coming and going and place more importance on the side gait.

I think that all aspects of a whippet's movement are of equal importance. Sickle hocks, bow hocks, cow hocks, out at elbow, plaiting/weaving, moving too close/wide, over reaching, mincing etc etc are all faults that are going to affect the ability of the dog in the long run.

 

[Avalonia]

You can't ignore the coming and going. Perhaps some judges, because there is more description about the profile movement in the standard, choose to forgive some problems in the coming and going and place more importance on the side gait.
I think that all aspects of a whippet's movement are of equal importance. Sickle hocks, bow hocks, cow hocks, out at elbow, plaiting/weaving, moving too close/wide, over reaching, mincing etc etc are all faults that are going to affect the ability of the dog in the long run.

It sounds to me like you have been listening to too many American exhibitors, who concentrate on side gait and ignore the fact the dog is not sound either coming or going. They race around the ring at breakneck speed to show the dog moving out strongly. But when you gait them slowly up and back you see the straight shoulder set has pushed the elbows out and the toes in, which affects front movement (a lot of them have flippy feet from this), and back movement is altered too with the upright shoulder set as the elbowing out in front also requires that the dog move wide in rear as well (which is why they are stacked very often with the two hind legs out wider than the barrel of the torso.

Obsession with side gait, and ignoring proper front and rear construction and proper front and rear movement, is the domain of those who really don't know a good whippet from a bad one, and probably breed ignorant of the standard for an ideal whippet, preferring to breed pretty to pretty or some other silly such concept.

Lanny

www.avaloniawhippets.com

 

[clayelem]

It sounds to me like you have been listening to too many American exhibitors,

Lanny

www.avaloniawhippets.com

Perhaps Kerry will tell us just how many American exhibitors she knows. This one has never told her that and there are not too many others in the UK

In all my years showing in the US I never encountered a judge who disregarded front and rear, after all it is in the breed standard. Maybe Karen (seaspot run)

will give us her thoughts.

 

[miawhip]

You can't ignore the coming and going. Perhaps some judges, because there is more description about the profile movement in the standard, choose to forgive some problems in the coming and going and place more importance on the side gait.
I think that all aspects of a whippet's movement are of equal importance. Sickle hocks, bow hocks, cow hocks, out at elbow, plaiting/weaving, moving too close/wide, over reaching, mincing etc etc are all faults that are going to affect the ability of the dog in the long run.

It sounds to me like you have been listening to too many American exhibitors, who concentrate on side gait and ignore the fact the dog is not sound either coming or going. They race around the ring at breakneck speed to show the dog moving out strongly. But when you gait them slowly up and back you see the straight shoulder set has pushed the elbows out and the toes in, which affects front movement (a lot of them have flippy feet from this), and back movement is altered too with the upright shoulder set as the elbowing out in front also requires that the dog move wide in rear as well (which is why they are stacked very often with the two hind legs out wider than the barrel of the torso.

Obsession with side gait, and ignoring proper front and rear construction and proper front and rear movement, is the domain of those who really don't know a good whippet from a bad one, and probably breed ignorant of the standard for an ideal whippet, preferring to breed pretty to pretty or some other silly such concept.

Lanny

www.avaloniawhippets.com

You are quite right as usual Lanny.

 

[seaspot_run]

Not every American agrees we should have that sort of extreme side gait in the Whippet, but it's a fight I feel those of us who want a smooth, sound daisy clip with true gait on the line are losing--both the battle and the war. It makes it very hard on the dual-purpose breeders because extreme side gait is not compatible with racing speed. You never see it on a fast sprinting Whippet.

Do I think Americans in general 'overemphasize big side movement at the expense of true gait and type? Yes.

Do they not care at all about coming and going movement? Now, that's an exaggeration. The dogs with big side gait which are wretched on the line don't win that much. There are dogs over here with big gait who only have minor issues on the up and back. There are some who are actually pretty clean--perfect front movement with maybe just a trace of hockiness at speed. Hard not to reward those dogs in a big ring.

But one thing that strikes me is that international breeder judges (most of them) put it (huge wide open side gait) up like crazy when they come over here, so it's not just a matter of superficial US judges putting it up. The breeder-judges are some of the biggest proponents of huge open side gait and extreme flexion kick-out rears, the influential taste-makers are breeding it and breeding to it as fast as they can, the novice people fall right in line, and it's left to some of the people from other breeds and a few of the old guard to stress true gait as being as important, if not slightly more important, than impressive profile movement. And there are dogs from our most extreme side movement lines being exported all over the world right now. When people come here to buy, big side gait is what they come to get....and show attitude. Our big shows are judged at the trot, not the stack. And that goes for the international judges when they come here, as well. You circle the ring plenty and other than the table, most of the time, the dog never gets touched again.

Any of you who think just because you live in some country where most of the Whippets aren't as extreme as ours, you aren't going to have to confront this--think again. A lot of your judges love it when they see it over here; they fall all over themselves to put up the most extreme side movement in our rings, and if somone in your part of the world brings it in and manages to fix it in their line, then you'll see that they end up winning everything and that becomes the norm. If they love it and reward it here, they will put it up back home.

And that's my take on that. Get your shots in at the Americans while you can! :-

Karen Lee

 

[liza]

Not every American agrees we should have that sort of extreme side gait in the Whippet, but it's a fight I feel those of us who want a smooth, sound daisy clip with true gait on the line are losing--both the battle and the war. It makes it very hard on the dual-purpose breeders because extreme side gait is not compatible with racing speed. You never see it on a fast sprinting Whippet.
Do I think Americans in general 'overemphasize big side movement at the expense of true gait and type? Yes.

Do they not care at all about coming and going movement? Now, that's an exaggeration. The dogs with big side gait which are wretched on the line don't win that much. There are dogs over here with big gait who only have minor issues on the up and back. There are some who are actually pretty clean--perfect front movement with maybe just a trace of hockiness at speed. Hard not to reward those dogs in a big ring.

But one thing that strikes me is that international breeder judges (most of them) put it (huge wide open side gait) up like crazy when they come over here, so it's not just a matter of superficial US judges putting it up. The breeder-judges are some of the biggest proponents of huge open side gait and extreme flexion kick-out rears, the influential taste-makers are breeding it and breeding to it as fast as they can, the novice people fall right in line, and it's left to some of the people from other breeds and a few of the old guard to stress true gait as being as important, if not slightly more important, than impressive profile movement. And there are dogs from our most extreme side movement lines being exported all over the world right now. When people come here to buy, big side gait is what they come to get....and show attitude. Our big shows are judged at the trot, not the stack. And that goes for the international judges when they come here, as well. You circle the ring plenty and other than the table, most of the time, the dog never gets touched again.

Any of you who think just because you live in some country where most of the Whippets aren't as extreme as ours, you aren't going to have to confront this--think again. A lot of your judges love it when they see it over here; they fall all over themselves to put up the most extreme side movement in our rings, and if somone in your part of the world brings it in and manages to fix it in their line, then you'll see that they end up winning everything and that becomes the norm. If they love it and reward it here, they will put it up back home.

And that's my take on that. Get your shots in at the Americans while you can! :-

Karen Lee

no it wasent an american

she is an english person been in the breed a number of years i wont mention her name

i personally respect the american judges as they judge true movement i do find they make you work a lot harder a prime example was a judge from america mrs walsh she judged scotland general champ show i took my mums kaymark step to the beat she gave him the cc but she made you move on profile and watched front and back movements i would always go uvder an american judge

 

[seaspot_run]

It is true that American judges tend to make you gait a lot more. But one thing is that American judges are allotted more time per dog, I think, than they get in other countries. It is stressed over here that the exhibitors are trying not just to show to the judge but to exhibit their dogs to ringside and even if the judge doesn't like the dog at all, the exhibitor paid the same entry fee and is entitled to be given the same chance to show his dog to ringside as others in the class which will place. It's much more interesting for ringside to watch gaiting than a line of dogs standing at stack with the judge staring at them in turn. I think this is part of the reason why looking impressive on the move is considered more important than looking impressive on the stack, in many breeds.

One complaint that has been voiced about some of the internationals who are used to a much faster judging when they come here is that American exhibitors feel slighted if the judge doesn't at least make a pretense of considering their dog. Aren't there some countries where you can just walk down the line in a big class before individual gaiting and examination and just tell some of the class to leave because they will not be considered for a placement? That would never fly here at all.

Hey, I do want to make one thing clear. My prior post about foreign judges coming over here and tripping all over themselves to put up the most extreme gait is based on observations of many judges over many years, and not on any one particular show. Of course there are plenty of exceptions.

It probably makes our American judges look good when foreign experts come over here and find the same stuff that has been winning under everybody else, but I guess I also wonder why bother paying all that money to bring in someone from overseas if they don't have a different perspective on the breed (which would mean that maybe someone other than the usual suspects might take home a large share of the hardware).

 

[liza]

It is true that American judges tend to make you gait a lot more. But one thing is that American judges are allotted more time per dog, I think, than they get in other countries. It is stressed over here that the exhibitors are trying not just to show to the judge but to exhibit their dogs to ringside and even if the judge doesn't like the dog at all, the exhibitor paid the same entry fee and is entitled to be given the same chance to show his dog to ringside as others in the class which will place. It's much more interesting for ringside to watch gaiting than a line of dogs standing at stack with the judge staring at them in turn. I think this is part of the reason why looking impressive on the move is considered more important than looking impressive on the stack, in many breeds.
One complaint that has been voiced about some of the internationals who are used to a much faster judging when they come here is that American exhibitors feel slighted if the judge doesn't at least make a pretense of considering their dog. Aren't there some countries where you can just walk down the line in a big class before individual gaiting and examination and just tell some of the class to leave because they will not be considered for a placement? That would never fly here at all.

Hey, I do want to make one thing clear. My prior post about foreign judges coming over here and tripping all over themselves to put up the most extreme gait is based on observations of many judges over many years, and not on any one particular show. Of course there are plenty of exceptions.

It probably makes our American judges look good when foreign experts come over here and find the same stuff that has been winning under everybody else, but I guess I also wonder why bother paying all that money to bring in someone from overseas if they don't have a different perspective on the breed (which would mean that maybe someone other than the usual suspects might take home a large share of the hardware).

i find you can see a lot more if a dog is on the move

i pesonally would like to see alot more foreing judges over here

 

[bertha]

Why? Surely we have enough well respected judges in this country? What can they bring to whippet judging that we don't all ready have?

 

[GotWhippet?]

Why? Surely we have enough well respected judges in this country? What can they bring to whippet judging that we don't all ready have?

A different opinion. I thoroughly enjoy entering dogs under foreign judges.

 

[Avalonia]

Hi all. Judging in the UK is a situation that is unique and does not conform to any other showing situation I am aware of world wide, except, perhaps, in the case of specialty judging in countries outside the UK where there are a substantial number of entries. The reality is the UK show scene -- with less than 40 shows a year with CCs available -- and CCs are the only thing that counts towards a title -- is the most difficult arena to gain a championship -- except perhaps in France, where they deliberately stack the deck against any non-French bred dogs by disqualifying them because they are - ohmigosh, at least a half a centimetre taller than our ridiculous breed standard which corresponds to how whippets raised 40 or 50 years ago and ignored by us completely unless a non-French bred dog wins at the shows that determine champilonship eligibility, in which case we come up with scenario B -- invented to disqualify the non-French entry by some speciouus clause found in the breed standard no one in their right mind has paid any attention to -- until the Fr.Ch. supremacy is challenged (which is how they have disqualified from French Ch. titles earned - both a Falconcrag and a Boxing Helena's whippet in recent years).

In the US you have zillion shows, with most being small entries, and the largest being only the specialy shows held nationally and regionally a handful of times a year. The rest of the time the whippet entry is usually under 20 dogs, and dogs are earning points towards an AM.Ch. title. Just as they are in Canada. There are not the hordes of whippets you see in the UK ring where there are so few CCs on offer. There are limited dogs, mostly regional, hoping to gain a 'major' in a show which may, depending on where you live, have as few as a half a dozen whippets entered to gain the 'major' points needed to qualify a dog for its Am.Ch. title. The same applies in Canada except we do not have majors -- we have points tied to the number of dogs entered, and folks in England, let me tell you, most of your classes have more dogs entered than are required to gain a major, either in the USA or to gain the points needed to establish qualifications for points towards a win in Canada. Over here, if your bank account is good, if you like to spend your weekends travelling to dog shows, you stand a good chance of 'finishing' a champion with scarcely any of the competition UK entries face.

All this said, having attended a whole two US championship shows this year and only four Canadian ones, I can tell you that at all of the shows I have attended I have seen a handful of really decent dogs looking AT LEAST as good or better than, most of the non-champion UK entries, but I have also seen the rest of the entry looking pretty awful and abysmal. I saw a whippet shown in Maryland to BOS that crippled around the ring like a German Shepherd, and we all know how awful that breed has become with the selective breeding program that has been implemented by the top breed designers in that breed currently. It makes you wanna gag!

The reason the UK judge has so littlle time to judge entries is the sheer volume of entries in the UK vs the US or Canada. In Canada, the judge is 'expected' to give at least 2.5 minutes to each individual entry. That works out, roughly, to seeing not more than 25 dogs an hour. During that hour, with much fewer dogs in any breed entered, very often a judge can judge almost ALL the hound group, including whippets. At the shows I was at on Sunday, which included a Sighthound specialty, judging was completed in less than 2 hours.

So when you hear great show results from over here you have to factor in the realization that judges here have far fewer entries, the entires are usually far lower in quality than I have personally ever seen in the typical UK show ring with 200 plus whippet entries alone, and judges therefore have a far lower bar to meet because they do not know the breed well, if at all, as most are all rounders, vs. the UK system where many judging are breed specialists and all rounders are, if not in the minority, at least not more than half of those awarding CCs on any given year.

This does not mean there are not great whippets over here. There are, and we have a kennel full of them (BG) bred down from N. Justa Jesta and N. Ceefa Ceely. But we do not have tonnage, the judges here see far fewer dogs, they tend to know far less about the breed, and our champ titles are therefore, to be perfectly honest, a hell of a lot easier to earn, and a heck of a lot faster to gain, than you over there. I frankly don't think I could stand living and showing in the UK with the realization I might never earn a single CC (and being contented with that state of reality). I often wonder how people can stay in a breed for 20 years, never have a CC or an RCC and wrap their minds around why there are still there, two decades later with out something that gives them a point -- other than sheer love of the breed (which is frankly what empowers my son Mick and I, and keeps us in after 26 years) to continue on from.

All I can say, very frankly, is UK breeder/exhibitors are troopers of an ilk rarely if ever seen over here, where instant gratification is the norm, rather than the exception.

And that is why, in my view the UK champ title is the most important, most prestigious, most valuable, most sought after, most desirable, most coveted, most yearned for, most wonderful championship title in the world! I would rather have one UK champion in my kennel (as we do with Eng.Ch. Nevedith Ceefa Ceely) than we do with the 50 plus Cdn. and Am.Ch. whippets we have produced over several decades, because YOUR title rocks, and your title is hard earned, rarely awarded, and genuinely to be treasured for all those reasons.

Lanny

 

[clardia]

Not every American agrees we should have that sort of extreme side gait in the Whippet, but it's a fight I feel those of us who want a smooth, sound daisy clip with true gait on the line are losing--both the battle and the war. It makes it very hard on the dual-purpose breeders because extreme side gait is not compatible with racing speed. You never see it on a fast sprinting Whippet.
Do I think Americans in general 'overemphasize big side movement at the expense of true gait and type? Yes.

Do they not care at all about coming and going movement? Now, that's an exaggeration. The dogs with big side gait which are wretched on the line don't win that much. There are dogs over here with big gait who only have minor issues on the up and back. There are some who are actually pretty clean--perfect front movement with maybe just a trace of hockiness at speed. Hard not to reward those dogs in a big ring.

But one thing that strikes me is that international breeder judges (most of them) put it (huge wide open side gait) up like crazy when they come over here, so it's not just a matter of superficial US judges putting it up. The breeder-judges are some of the biggest proponents of huge open side gait and extreme flexion kick-out rears, the influential taste-makers are breeding it and breeding to it as fast as they can, the novice people fall right in line, and it's left to some of the people from other breeds and a few of the old guard to stress true gait as being as important, if not slightly more important, than impressive profile movement. And there are dogs from our most extreme side movement lines being exported all over the world right now. When people come here to buy, big side gait is what they come to get....and show attitude. Our big shows are judged at the trot, not the stack. And that goes for the international judges when they come here, as well. You circle the ring plenty and other than the table, most of the time, the dog never gets touched again.

Any of you who think just because you live in some country where most of the Whippets aren't as extreme as ours, you aren't going to have to confront this--think again. A lot of your judges love it when they see it over here; they fall all over themselves to put up the most extreme side movement in our rings, and if somone in your part of the world brings it in and manages to fix it in their line, then you'll see that they end up winning everything and that becomes the norm. If they love it and reward it here, they will put it up back home.

And that's my take on that. Get your shots in at the Americans while you can! :-

Karen Lee

no it wasent an american

she is an english person been in the breed a number of years i wont mention her name

i personally respect the american judges as they judge true movement i do find they make you work a lot harder a prime example was a judge from america mrs walsh she judged scotland general champ show i took my mums kaymark step to the beat she gave him the cc but she made you move on profile and watched front and back movements i would always go uvder an american judge

Just moving the subject a little - Lisa what sort of judge do you feel you do best under with you dogs - Breed Specialist - Allrounder - Foreign Judges.

On subject of Movement - from experience of watching many judges during many years stewarding - give or take a few - I have never seen a judge not

look at side and back and forth movement - I just feel that sometimes some judges may have/see something differently to me.