Poor Blues And Blacks Again

[jonesyins14]

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The article in Dog World 25/8 in the whippet forum really saddened me. much of what Gay Robinson writes re: commerical colour breeding and pricing is fine BUT "especially for a blue which is a very difficult colour to achieve in consistent quality: the tiny number of blue and black champions in the bread seems to indicate that top class whippets in these colours are few and far between" SEEMS being the important word, also SEEMS to me to be perpetuating the prejudice which Joanna Russell goes on to explain. :angry:

This is all old hat and has been discussed on here before and owners of blues and blacks know themselves that if they compare the bone in their coloured dogs there is no difference with other colours of the same type.

A few months back a thread asking how people would judge commented that colour made no difference - hum I wonder, after reading this article!!!! :rant:

 

[Karen]

If 40% of dogs shown are brindle and 40% dogs shown are fawn and 15% are partis and the final 5% made up of blues blacks and whites wouldnt the amount of awards given out pretty much tie up with those percentages?

A lot of the trouble I think also is people dont campaign blues and blacks enough, they automatically think oh its not winning because of its colour, there are massess of fawns and brindles that dont win anything either.

There were good blacks and blues made up and winning well but where are the dedicated breeders/showers of those colours now?

So blue and black people out there dont winge, breed one that is blue/black AND correct, never assume its not winning because of its colour, (you insult breed judges especially with this assumption) shown well, under everyone, not just judges you think will like a coloured dog.

Rant over, Im going away now for a few days so I expect some decent replies on here when I get back :thumbsup:

 

[Vanna]

If 40% of dogs shown are brindle and 40% dogs shown are fawn and 15% are partis and the final 5% made up of blues blacks and whites wouldnt the amount of awards given out pretty much tie up with those percentages?
A lot of the trouble I think also is people dont campaign blues and blacks enough, they automatically think oh its not winning because of its colour, there are massess of fawns and brindles that dont win anything either. 

There were good blacks and blues made up and winning well but where are the dedicated breeders/showers of those colours now?

So blue and black people out there dont winge, breed one that is blue/black AND correct, never assume its not winning because of its colour, (you insult breed judges especially with this assumption) shown well, under everyone, not just judges you think will like a coloured dog.

Rant over, Im going away now for a few days so I expect some decent replies on here when I get back :thumbsup:

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Those percentages seem about right - and of course if only 5% of whippets being shown are black, blue or white, then it follows that only 5% of the good ones are of those colours too. When we regularly have entries of over 200 it follows that a white, blue or black getting a CC is statistically going to be rare (only one third of 5% of the time, which I can't work out! )

And this comes from the owner of a blue boy who always humps his back in the ring - but he and I know he's beautiful. :huggles:

There is also the fact that there are some judges who are seen as preferring one colour over another - maybe that's the colour they usually show. Then you find that fewer of the other colours enter under them and it becomes a self perpetuating myth. "Oh don't enter under X- they only put up ones with green and purple spots" But if 90% of the dogs entered under them have green and purple spots the chances are thet the best dog and best bitch will be ones with green and purple spots.

It all comes down to the fact that each one of us owns the best whippets in the world. We keep what we like to have around us. Hopefully we know our dogs' faults, and their strengths too. Showing is a hobby - if we're lucky enough to find a judge who agrees with us about our dogs, they win on that day, but we still go home with the best dog even if that particular judge preferred something else, and that something else may well happen to be another colour.

I'm going to duck now!

I'll be away for a few days too, so I won't be ignoring any replies, just won't read them until Tuesday!

 

[beaker]

i show blacks and you all know i like to yabber on about colour breeding so here is a shocker...

there is a lot less colour predjudice in judging than people think,

there have been odd occasions where i have felt 'badly done to' ....but then, who hasn't? i also think that on occasion my dog has been placed higher up than he deserved, possibly by a judge who was determined not to be seen as colour predudiced :lol: not that i'm not grateful

blacks do merge into the back ground in a show ring thats why i try to go to shows that have complimentary lighting for my black dog, i put more consideration into this than i do about whether the judge likes blacks.... unlike a lot of exhibitors i don't have a ''judging blacklist'' i have a ''venue blacklist'' (w00t)

what did concern me the most in the article, and it has worried me for a long while, are the endless litters of blue's being churned out at rediculous hiked up prices, more than double they were 4 or 5 years ago :angry: ... bred not because the parents have sufficient merits and acheivments that would be benefit to the breed but because ''blue pups will sell all day'' :rant:

 

[Morgan]

I am afraid this is on old topic going on...

I feel concerned because I have some so called "coloured" so the only thing I can tell you about is my own experience but as you Know I am not in England but in France, so I can tell you about the situation on the continent...

My first whippet was a blue bitch who despite being owned by a novice had a few little wins, severals CACs which allowed her to have the title Highly recommanded by the French Whippet Club. I was a bit surprised of other exhibitors reactions... I always read that all colours were allowed in Whippets and the other exhebitors kept telling me "oh you are lucky you have a nice bitch... for a blue :angry: ". Some people even said to me you shouldn't breed from her because you will never have big wins in the ring with that... as if the goal of breeding was big wins (w00t) !!! Anyway...when I started breeding (well breeding is a big word as I breed only very few) one of my goal was to have nice black and blues 1st because even if colour is immaterial we all have our favorite and mine is black and second because I couldn't understand why in a breed where all colours are accepted some where left on the side with no real good reason.

My first whippet had just one litter sired by an half english half american bred dog... From this 1st litter bred here came my black dog "Spike"

SBIS. Int. Germ. VDH. NL. World'01 Ch. Taraly Malcolm X

I heavily showed Spike all over Europe and I have to say that yes here in Europe some judges really don't like black and wouldn't look at a dog just when they see the colour (for them black = bad) but I have to say that these judges aren't breed specialists (far from that :lol: ) and that they are only very few (thanks god). I even had once a South African Judge who said to me "A Black? I thought it was exterminated from the breed" and gave Spike a "Very Good". I have to say that Spike has had more than 30 wins during the time I showed him and that 90% of them were under Breed Specialists but mostly not under the ones who are known to like and have blacks at home. Spike was shown under some of the last category and sometimes he did well sometimes not. I really don't think a true breed specialist would denie a coloured just because of it's colour.. One of the worse thing that could be said to me was Spike is a nice black: no I am sorry but either he is a nice dog or not, not just a nice black :angry: .

I do think just like Karen those of you who have nice blacks just DARE to go!!!

But also on the other hand I think some must admit that a lot of the black/blues are just not good enough to win. In Europe most of the Blacks come from racing lines and of course in this cases I am sorry but most (not all) of the dogs are not looking good so in this case it's only normal they don't win and this has nothing to do with the colour but just with the conformation. A lot of them are lightboned, have straight shoulders etc....

Anyway in my lines personnaly there are no differences between the so called coloured and the others now so I'll just continue my way, showing my blacks. If it's good enough it will win if it's not it won't but it's for all colours the same... I am happy to see Spike's bloodline has gone so far in Europe and Scandinavia so let's see what the future brings....

One of my Spike's daughters:

Taraly Too Funky aka "Spicy"

shown only 5 times but 3 wins including BOB and Crufts qualified and Junior BIS at the French Specialty

More blacks waiting in the wings...

"Jazz" Taraly Black Mamba living in Sweden

"Mona" Taraly Black Panther living in Finland

"Lola" Taraly Black is Beautiful, stayed here in France

All by our Multi Ch Taraly Stairway to Heaven "Mojo" X Spicy

 

[beaker]

off topic but...... :wub: Lola :wub:

 

[~elizabeth~]

Haven't read the article yet (just on my way out to try and find a copy) but from Gay's posts on other groups, and private converstations I've had with her, I think she has some quite specific concerns regarding coloured lines that derive from a couple of high-producing breeders, the high level of in-breeding they practice and also suspected anomalies within the pedigrees. I suggest anyone with coloured whippets wanting to know about these concerns in more detail contact her directly.

 

[dessie]

I did well enough with my two black boys in their hey day, Dante won a RCC and, yes, there were days when I felt he was the 'wrong' colour but I have also had days like that with my brindles as well!

What I have noticed though, is that I have encountered more problems, health/breeding wise, with my blacks than I have with my brindles. I find I am now left with only my two old black dogs, one of whom is in renal failure the other with Cushings disease, and I have no progeny from either of them. I would dearly love to have more blacks/blues and do have a cunning plan but I seem to take one step forward and three steps back!!!

 

[Morgan]

I did well enough with my two black boys in their hey day, Dante won a RCC and, yes, there were days when I felt he was the 'wrong' colour but I have also had days like that with my brindles as well!
What I have noticed though, is that I have encountered more problems, health/breeding wise, with my blacks than I have with my brindles.  I find I am now left with only my two old black dogs, one of whom is in renal failure the other with Cushings disease, and I have no progeny from either of them.  I would dearly love to have more blacks/blues and do have a cunning plan but I seem to take one step forward and three steps back!!!

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Really? I am surprised. I have never noticed any problem on my blacks...

 

[Morgan]

off topic but......  :wub: Lola  :wub:

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Thank you very much for Lola Beaker :huggles:

 

[dessie]

I did well enough with my two black boys in their hey day, Dante won a RCC and, yes, there were days when I felt he was the 'wrong' colour but I have also had days like that with my brindles as well!
What I have noticed though, is that I have encountered more problems, health/breeding wise, with my blacks than I have with my brindles.  I find I am now left with only my two old black dogs, one of whom is in renal failure the other with Cushings disease, and I have no progeny from either of them.  I would dearly love to have more blacks/blues and do have a cunning plan but I seem to take one step forward and three steps back!!!

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Really? I am surprised. I have never noticed any problem on my blacks...

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Unfortunately, yes, I have had far more heartbreak with them. I seem doomed to failure!!

 

[beaker]

Haven't read the article yet (just on my way out to try and find a copy) but from Gay's posts on other groups, and private converstations I've had with her, I think she has some quite specific concerns regarding coloured lines that derive from a couple of high-producing breeders, the high level of in-breeding they practice and also suspected anomalies within the pedigrees. I suggest anyone with coloured whippets wanting to know about these concerns in more detail contact her directly.

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i can probably guess the ones you are talking about :- " the prolific numbers produced by them mean that if you are looking for a black or blue pup it is nearly impossible to find one that isn't from these lines

i am a bit torn... i couldn't agree with their breeding practices but my old blue boy Alf was from one of these breeders, and if it wasn't for Alf i'd still be stuck with labradors

the level of inbreeding in Alf's lines, although not too bad, was still quite a concern for me, which is why i tried my best to find an outcross bitch that would compliment his merits and hopefully improve on his failings, i was really really lucky with the litter produced

 

[~elizabeth~]

i can probably guess the ones you are talking about  :- "   the prolific numbers produced by them mean that if you are looking for a black or blue pup it is nearly impossible to find one that isn't from these lines

That might be the root of the problem, that these lines are now more widespread in the whippet community than just people wanting working dogs for lamping. As I said, I haven't read the article but I feel there may be a subtext; also a lot of unpleasant rumour as some of the claims being made cannot be substantiated without genetic testing.

 

[parnew]

I agree that the % of blacks is low and there for the amount of top quailty dogs is low. I have just used Viv's Barney for two litters here in Oz and he has thrown some very nice puppies. I didn't use him because of his colour, I used him because he was a very nice dog with a great pedigree. If he had of been black I would of still used him, because the type is what I wanted. Here in Oz there are only a few good blacks but the lines don't cross well with much here and the bigger kennels wont use them so it is hard to get a decent gene pool going. If the gene pool was as large for the blacks as all the other colours then this black thing would never happen. I have shown blacks and done well with them but you can not do it on your own and when the Imports come through like Barney well you breed for type when it is said and done and not for colour. Its a real same that this lovely colour is over looked by some and the only way to fix this myth is to show more blacks and for our peers to embrace the standard " of any mix of colour" and then us smaller kennels would strive to use a quailty import of any colour. When we raced greyhounds they were mostly black and blue so deep down I have a love for black. A big well done to all of you K9er's that show black whippets, keep up the good work as the race for a good whippet of any colour is on for young and old. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[parnew]

Ellie our black and white girl.

 

[parnew]

This is Flash, Ellies Brother.

 

[Gill Andrew]

If 40% of dogs shown are brindle and 40% dogs shown are fawn and 15% are partis and the final 5% made up of blues blacks and whites wouldnt the amount of awards given out pretty much tie up with those percentages?
A lot of the trouble I think also is people dont campaign blues and blacks enough, they automatically think oh its not winning because of its colour, there are massess of fawns and brindles that dont win anything either. 

There were good blacks and blues made up and winning well but where are the dedicated breeders/showers of those colours now?

So blue and black people out there dont winge, breed one that is blue/black AND correct, never assume its not winning because of its colour, (you insult breed judges especially with this assumption) shown well, under everyone, not just judges you think will like a coloured dog.

Rant over, Im going away now for a few days so I expect some decent replies on here when I get back :thumbsup:

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Those percentages seem about right - and of course if only 5% of whippets being shown are black, blue or white, then it follows that only 5% of the good ones are of those colours too. When we regularly have entries of over 200 it follows that a white, blue or black getting a CC is statistically going to be rare (only one third of 5% of the time, which I can't work out! )

And this comes from the owner of a blue boy who always humps his back in the ring - but he and I know he's beautiful. :huggles:

There is also the fact that there are some judges who are seen as preferring one colour over another - maybe that's the colour they usually show. Then you find that fewer of the other colours enter under them and it becomes a self perpetuating myth. "Oh don't enter under X- they only put up ones with green and purple spots" But if 90% of the dogs entered under them have green and purple spots the chances are thet the best dog and best bitch will be ones with green and purple spots.

It all comes down to the fact that each one of us owns the best whippets in the world. We keep what we like to have around us. Hopefully we know our dogs' faults, and their strengths too. Showing is a hobby - if we're lucky enough to find a judge who agrees with us about our dogs, they win on that day, but we still go home with the best dog even if that particular judge preferred something else, and that something else may well happen to be another colour.

I'm going to duck now!

I'll be away for a few days too, so I won't be ignoring any replies, just won't read them until Tuesday!

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Well said Vanna. As you know I have shown blacks and blues for years, winning a RCC under Ann Argyle (shows how long ago that was) and also getting Stud Book numbers with blues. HOWEVER, I have found that there has been a certain amount of colour prejudice in the past which people like you and your mum, Joanna Russell, Mary Rigby and Sue Bealey to name a few, have done a lot to counteract. Colour trends do seem to change from time to time, for example the current "in" colour seems to be brindle but in a year or so this could very well be parti or fawn again. Incidentally, I have always wanted a green with purple spots so when you next breed one, can I have it please?

Picking up the thread further along, I would also have to agree with Morgan - my black had chronic heart problems, as did a red fawn I owned from black lines, and one of my blues ended up with Cushings. None of these were ever used at stud so at least I know that no problems were passed on.

I allowed my blue dog to be used a couple of years ago on a blue bitch (10 pups - 9 blue bitches and 1 fawn dog) and was furious that the bitch's owner charged well in excess of the "average" for the blue puppies purely because of their colour!!

 

[Macha]

I like all colours of whippets and blues are among my favourites.

I'd hate to think that a particular colour or marking would lose a good dog a prize in the ring.

I have to say that the few blues I have seen recently have not been good show quality. One that I saw at a championship show was quite large and evidently cowhocked. I do think that there is a problem if your breeding programme selects for colour rather than quality that you will sacrifice more important features.

 

[~elizabeth~]

What she actually said:

"This led me to reflect on a trend I have noticed in the breed record supplements for a disproportionate percentage of black whippet registrations. I am not a colour breeder but I know from those who are that producing Black whippets is a far from simple process...and if they get two or three in a litter of six they think they are doing well. Yet suddenly litters of ten black whippets are being registered and not necessarily from black parents.

I find this worrying on two counts; if black and blue are being promoted as colours that demand premium prices, given the difficulty of producing reliable quality in these colours, their predominance can only be detrimental to the breed as a whole and, second, on has to wonder about the integrity of the pedigrees."

I feel that part of the promlem with questioning 'integrity of the pedigrees' has to do with an incomplete understanding of the genetics of black. A dog that is full KK black will throw litters that are entirely black even to bitches that are not (cream excepted), whilst parents that are heterozygous for black (Kk) will proportionately lower numbers. However, it stands to reason that dogs from lines where nearly all relatives are black will have a much greater probability of being KK (and such limitations to the gene pool might concentrate health problems too).

To draw any meaningful conclusions from colour ratios derived from breed supplement records you would have to trace the colours of the grandparents/g-grandparents too. What she refers to is anecdotal evidence and, as such, not a sound basis for perpetuating rumour and conjecture.

 

[dragonfly]

I can't resist this topic.... I strongly disagree that there is prejudice against blues in the ring. I started out with blues (hence my prefix) being totally unaware of the difficulty in achieving success. There I was, a novice, with two blue bitches entering and winning a fair bit with them as pups. Then one of them won a RCC out of junior under the late Bobby James. In the next couple of years they won 3 CCs and 2 RCCs between them, with me a beginner and completely unknown. I believe if a dog is good enough it will win. There has still never been a blue bitch champion in the UK. At first when I bred I tried to keep a blue but sadly they were not always the best in the litter and so I ended up with my first fawn CH Bluestreak Beauty of Bath out of my lovely BLUE foundation bitch Ousebank Morning Melody, whose blue daughter was also a good winner in the ring and a wonderful producer. She was from my first ever litter when I insisted on keeping only a blue. I kept her in spite of her bolt upright ears because she was such a lovely shape. She repaid me very well by producing CH Bluestreak Brief Encounter and Linda Jones' CH B. Bittersweet at Welstar..

I owe so much to my lovely blue girls, nobody could have had a better foundation.

CH. Martinsell Wild and Lonely, their father, is of course the only blue champion ever produced in the UK.

Here is the only blue I now own, she is Sapphy.

Cathie