Poor Blues And Blacks Again

[JAX]

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Im just going to make a small comment :- "

Now I really dont care what colour a dog is or isnt , :cheers: but I have noticed that judges who have /had blacks/blues put up far more of that colour when judging , sometimes regardless of quailty IMO and it could be because they ARE black or Blue . so it works the same way as for fawns / brindles /parti colours .

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Instead, when I go to England I find I have to carefully pick the shows I can attend so I don't get lulled into lala land watching nothing but 200 plus fawn dogs, few of which are distinguishable from each other, quote

You cant be looking at the whippets close enough Lanny . if a dog is so undistinguisheable from another wouldnt you call that `good line breeding`or `Type` :cheers:

As some one said earlier . if a judge is known to prefer a cerain colour then the entry usually shows this , so the judge puts up mainly that colour , what other choice do they have

A couple of years ago I entered Libbee ( striking brindle and white parti) under a `fawn` judge In a line up of fawns we were 2nd out of 15 entries. The critique said ` different type to winner but could not be ignored etc `

BYW . Mikkee ( fawn )was unplaced :lol:

Its the same with blacks/blues breed a goodun( like Morgan and others ) and stop moaning about no one will place you because its black/blue . Lets be honest with ourselves , please

 

[quintessence]

Have just read Avalonia's post and need to digest it fully before I formulate a reply because my instant reaction is what a load of tosh. I so agree with Jo, why do we have to change whippets, what was so wrong with the whippets exhibited 20 years ago. It must be nice to live in Utopia, the rest of us live in the real world spending our time attending plenty of shows watching whippets of various colours winning top honours week in and week out. I could go on but I'm rubbish at putting my thoughts into print but I for one wouldn't mind seeing those fawn Dondelayo bitches again, time goes on but it must be all of twenty years ago since we last saw them.

Jenny

 

[JAX]

Have just read Avalonia's post and need to digest it fully before I formulate a reply because my instant reaction is what a load of tosh.  I so agree with Jo, why do we have to change whippets, what was so wrong with the whippets exhibited 20 years ago.  It must be nice to live in Utopia, the rest of us live in the real world spending our time attending plenty of shows watching whippets of various colours winning top honours week in and week out.  I could go on but I'm rubbish at putting my thoughts into print but I for one wouldn't mind seeing those fawn Dondelayo bitches again, time goes on but it must be all of twenty years ago since we last saw them.
Jenny

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I know she was lightly brindled , but what would I give for a Dyanne of Dondelayo :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

 

[TonyHudson]

[SIZE=8pt]''FEW OF WHICH ARE DISTIGUISHABLE FROM EACH OTHER''[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]RUBBISH!! [/SIZE]

 

[fewterer]

I just had to respond to this post...

just as if the breed standard was written for a single colour and single style of whippet  (often frighteningly reminiscent of the look of a few whippets exhibited and popular decades ago).

This comment I find very worrying -

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So do I. :rant:

The judge thanked me for showing him and said he was a lovely old fashioned type that he liked and full of muscle and that it was only his movement that lost him 1st

Perhaps we get to the nub of the problem; there is a prejudice in places against old-fashioned types and lines, and coloured lines usually fall into this category? :unsure:

What's wrong with the whippets exhibited 'decades ago' anyway, the Nimrodels, Lagunas, Dondeyelos, Shalfleets etc? Most of them were genuinely all-purpose dogs, that could prove themselves in more than one field, unlike some showlines today. :angry:

 

[Avalonia]

Good grief! Everything evolves from people to dogs. How would you like to look like your ancestors four centuries ago -- at a time when women were generally under five feet tall and men not much taller, with dumpy body types made in those days to perform the hard labour tasks the ordinary peasant in those days could be expected to carry out before their early deaths in their 30s or 40s? Today people are taller, more svelte, more refined, and no one I know is hankering for that wonderful look of the past or looking to marry blokes who can give them children with overhanging brows and bodies and that look like Quasimodo!

If nothing is supposed to evolve then why haven't we all set our breeding sights on reproducing the whippet as it was at the time the breed was recognized by the KC in the 1890s, dogs like the first champion Zuber and his kin and descendants found in the early Willes-Shirley dogs that typified whippets up to the end of the First World War. Or the Manorleys that dominated the 20s and 30s. Of course you wouldn't -- if you produced those dogs today you would be horrified.

So why is it suddenly not good to admit and concede that over a great period of time, as has been the case for the whippet over nearly 120 years, that in fact the whippet breed, and in fact every breed slowly and in very subtle ways evolves. It is inevitable. Like it or not. This evolution explains why the whippet looks a little bit different across vast geographic regions of the world: the whippet in England is subtly different from the whippet you see in France, or Italy, or Scandinavia or Australia or America.

The greater pity is when people lock their mindset on a particular style or colour of whippet be it something popular in the fancy now or decades ago -- however pleasing that was, and I had my favourites amongst them too (I loved Harque the Lark) or something more current that has achieved popularity amongst a certain set of breeders-- and not accept the reality that this too will change no matter how many fingers you try to stick in the leaky holes in the dyke. Failing to concede that everything evolves over time :blink: , like it or not, is, as someone put it politely in an earlier post, even greater tosh.

Lanny

 

[~JO~]

So why is it suddenly not good to admit and concede that over a great period of time, as has been the case for the whippet over nearly 120 years, that in fact the whippet breed, and in fact every breed slowly and in very subtle ways evolves.

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I am certainly not denying this, however subtle evolution over 120yrs is a bit different to... if I may quote

" (often frighteningly reminiscent of the look of a few whippets exhibited and popular decades ago)"

Yes subtle evolution is inevitable (although evolution is completely determined on our breeding plans...) however to describe the fact we have some whippets that look 'shock, horror' like those years ago is 'frightening' - in my opinion is very worrying for the future of our breed.

And I still can't believe that you say Lanny that 200 fawns at a breed are 'indistinguishable' from each other.... :lol:

 

[artemis]

Have just read this thread with great interest! As a very "novice" exibitor I have just purchased another whippet bitch who happens to be black in colour. She has Nimrodel and Stonifleet lines. She, I hope, will turn out to be of breed standard and I will take her into the ring and take my chance. I would never be ashamed to be beaten by a dog of better stamp. In fact I would genuinely be pleased for the owner/breeder. The thing that worries me is that the breed standard states a maximum height etc yet several dogs I have seen campaigning far exceed that! What is the point of having a breed standard if dogs are being placed when they clearly dont conform. Perhaps that needs to be changed. I used to show "another" breed. At a Champ show in puppy class, the winner was pulled over in the ring by the pup and went on to kiss the judge ( old friend) ! Dont think it is anything to do with colour. Sometimes its who is on the end of the lead. But a good dog should always win the day! )

 

[~elizabeth~]

Good grief!  Everything evolves from people to dogs.  How would you like to look like your ancestors four centuries ago -- at a time when women were generally under five feet tall and men not much taller, with dumpy body types made in those days to perform the hard labour tasks the ordinary peasant in those days

How utterly offensive! I am barely 5 foot tall, I probably have a dumpy body type (and not alone in that by any means :- " ) and yes my ancestors were Welsh farmers, sorry peasants. And yes, both myself and my family have had offensive comments about our stature being due to insufficient nutrition etc. What are you suggesting, that any dog or person that isn't exaggeratedly tall, elongated, 'svelte' is inferior and atavistic? :rant: Grow up, and celebrate variety and diversity in all fields.

 

[Avalonia]

Good grief!  Everything evolves from people to dogs.  How would you like to look like your ancestors four centuries ago -- at a time when women were generally under five feet tall and men not much taller, with dumpy body types made in those days to perform the hard labour tasks the ordinary peasant in those days

How utterly offensive! I am barely 5 foot tall, I probably have a dumpy body type (and not alone in that by any means :- " ) and yes my ancestors were Welsh farmers, sorry peasants. And yes, both myself and my family have had offensive comments about our stature being due to insufficient nutrition etc. What are you suggesting, that any dog or person that isn't exaggeratedly tall, elongated, 'svelte' is inferior and atavistic? :rant: Grow up, and celebrate variety and diversity in all fields.

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My reference was a generalization related to the knowledge we have today of the typical anglo saxon centuries back, not to any person specific or otherwise (I don't even know you -- sorry if I inadvertently described you....) living today. The whole purpose of my post was to point out that no one thing is right all of the time, and that whippets come in all sizes and colours and should be celebrated and enjoyed on that basis and not popped out of some mould where one size/or type fits all. For the record my mother's sister is 4 feet 9 inches tall and she revels in the nickname Shortstuff which she has always used to her advantage.

Lanny

 

[Gill Andrew]

Have just read this thread with great interest!  As a very "novice" exibitor I have just purchased another whippet bitch who happens to be black in colour.  She has Nimrodel and Stonifleet lines.  She, I hope, will turn out to be of breed standard and I will take her into the ring and take my chance.  I would never be ashamed to be beaten by a dog of better stamp.  In fact I would genuinely be pleased for the owner/breeder.  The thing that worries me is that the breed standard states a maximum height etc yet several dogs I have seen campaigning far exceed that!  What is the point of having a breed standard if dogs are being placed when they clearly dont conform.  Perhaps that needs to be changed. I used to show "another" breed.  At a Champ show in puppy class, the winner was pulled over in the ring by the pup and went on to kiss the judge ( old friend) !  Dont think it is anything to do with colour.  Sometimes its who is on the end of the lead.  But a good dog should always win the day!   )

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Height is another rather contentious issue - perhaps this should be continued in another thread as I am sure it will generate a lot of comment!!

Wish you all the best with your new black pup.

Gill Andrew

 

[JAX]

Have just read this thread with great interest!  As a very "novice" exibitor I have just purchased another whippet bitch who happens to be black in colour.  She has Nimrodel and Stonifleet lines.  She, I hope, will turn out to be of breed standard and I will take her into the ring and take my chance.  I would never be ashamed to be beaten by a dog of better stamp.  In fact I would genuinely be pleased for the owner/breeder.  The thing that worries me is that the breed standard states a maximum height etc yet several dogs I have seen campaigning far exceed that!  What is the point of having a breed standard if dogs are being placed when they clearly dont conform.  Perhaps that needs to be changed. I used to show "another" breed.  At a Champ show in puppy class, the winner was pulled over in the ring by the pup and went on to kiss the judge ( old friend) !  Dont think it is anything to do with colour.  Sometimes its who is on the end of the lead.  But a good dog should always win the day!   )

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Height is another rather contentious issue - perhaps this should be continued in another thread as I am sure it will generate a lot of comment!!

Wish you all the best with your new black pup.

Gill Andrew

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[SIZE=21pt]PLEASE, NOT THE HEIGHT THING AGAIN NO ! NO ! NO![/SIZE]

I couldnt bare it , not AGAIN (w00t) (w00t)

Lanny , you did make me laugh :lol: You descriped me so well and I didnt think we had met although Im still trying to be `svelte` :- " i dont think Ill ever be tall

 

[dawn]

[SIZE=21pt]PLEASE, NOT THE HEIGHT THING AGAIN NO ! NO ! NO![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]I couldnt bare it [/SIZE], not AGAIN  (w00t)   (w00t)

Lanny , you did make me laugh  :lol:   You descriped me so well and I didnt think we had met    although Im still trying to be `svelte` :- "  i dont think Ill ever be tall 

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I'm sure you could Jax - and enjoy every minute of it's exposure

 

[Morgan]

I  :wub:   Blues and blacks.. My second Whippet was a blue bitch CH. Miss Divine and I adored her. She was made up easely, and I bred one litter from her, unfortunately there were only  white puppies. She died 5 years old from heartproblems, and her puppies suffered from different healthproblems.In the last 15 years where I have been judging Whippets around the world, I can only recal a couple of shows where I gave the class to a black ( and white ), simply because I never see dogs in those colours with quality enough to put them up.

To Morgan:

You bred a lovely black dog to a lovely brindle bitch, and produced a stunning litter with stunning blacks and brindle puppies in it. I think thats a very important point. Often I get the impression that people breed blacks and blues to blacks and blues, just to get sure to get puppies in that colour, but if more breeders took their best black dog or bitch and bred it to a high quality specimen, I am sure the quality would improve. I have seen this done not only in France, but also in Poland at kennel Lazarus, whoes foundation bitch was a black and white danish bred bitch ( going back to English bloodlines ) and they continued to keep a black bitch from all litters and bred them to a top winning dogs somewhere in Europe, kept again a black bitch and bred her to a top winning dog ( but never a black or blue ). In every single litter they had a black bitch, and for the last 5 generation those black bitches were sired by brindle or parti top winning Scandinavian or European dog, in some ocations with heavely American influence in the pedigree. The result speaks for it self, and so does your litter Morgan. I would be a very proud man if I had or ever get the possibility to show a black puppie like the ones you had in your last litter.

Rudi

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Thank you very much for your kind words Rudi. I didn't know you had a blue bitch before. My 1st whippet was a blue bitch too and she is Spike's dam.

You know I kept looking for a nice black or blue to use at the beginning (not necessarly on my "coloured" bitches) but I realised that it was impossible to find a dog of the quality I was looking for and with an interesting Pedigree as well. So considering the Colour genetics yes I think FOR ME it was the best option and I wouldn't hesitate one second to take a dog that I really like such as your Milo for example than a black I don't really like

 

[Morgan]

We know enough about dog genetics today to know that the genes for solids can be passed down even when one parent is a brindle, and I am inclined to think that the brindles give something that cannot be found in a lot of the solids -- be they fawn, blue or black -- bone and substance.   
I have to confess I am fed up/bored to tears/appalled at seeing endless champ shows crowded with nothing but sixteen shades of fawn whippets paraded out for judges selected because they are known to favour fawns, and who cannot see beyond that single colour -- just as if the breed standard was written for a single colour and single style of whippet  (often frighteningly reminiscent of the look of a few whippets exhibited and popular decades ago).

I just want to scream  -- move on please, these are whippets folks, not Irish Setters folks where a single coat colour is acceptable! Lucky us! 

I quite agree on that Lanny :thumbsup:

 

[bardmand]

As I think I have pointed out before, I think the "evolution" of whippets should be kept as close as possible to the rate of the evolution of rabbits. I don't think they have changed that much in the last twenty years.

There is also a slight (but important) difference between ideals and what is actually out there. Even if Zuber and his son had pricked ears, for instance, that was certainly not the ideal, even in their day. Edited: I guess what I am trying to say is that changes in type and quality does not necessarily reflect the corresponding change in ideals.

I honestly think most judges these days can appreciate a good whippet of any colour. Why should they be any less capable of doing so than all of us here on this board? I admit I find certain colours more attractive than others, but that has not prevented me from admiring many dogs with coat colours I do not find all that pretty.

 

[Avalonia]

Lanny , you did make me laugh  :lol:   You descriped me so well and I didnt think we had met    although Im still trying to be `svelte` :- "  i dont think Ill ever be tall 

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So are we into Hobbit territory Jax ( :clown: ) or just short and square? I am personally tall (5 feet 10) and square. When I was younger my Aunt Muriel (aka Shortstuff -- the 4 foot 9 inch munchkin who is now even shorter since she is over 80 and has shrunk about two or three inches with osteoporosis) used to come and visit us quite often and she perfected the art of passing herself off as my little sister, usually for her financial benefit. Muriel was then -- still is for that matter -- pretty tight with her money and so in the interests in saving as much as possible, she would go to restaurants and order children's meals, and shop for clothes in the children's department of stores. The kids clothes was never much of a problem, except when we got stopped once while she was driving me around (I was 14 and she was then about 40) and the police stopped her because she was driving by staring out through the middle of the steering wheel and they were convinced she was a child. It did not help that she was dressed like one. Or that she had forgotten her purse and drivers licence. We did wriggle out of that one, but it was awfully funny at the time.

The bigger problem was going to restaurants with her where she would insist -- with her smaller stature, that she be served childrens portions (for way less money. This made sense as her appetite is little more than a bird and she can take away a meal and make it least five days, but it was difficult to convince restaurant staff she was actually a child, even though she was with her alleged BIG sister (me... the niece actually 26 years younger than her) because she had in those days very dark hair and a certain amount of excess facial hair that made it clear this was not a 9 or 10 year old child as she was trying to pass herself off to be. The topper came when she would light up -- she smokes like the proverbial chimney -- and I would be forced to lie and say that she had taken the habit up early in life and there was nothing I could do to stop her. Of course now that she is in her mid 80s and white haired (and she has quit smoking) she cannot pass herself off as 9 years old any more, but I have to laugh when I think of at least two decades of these silly escapades with her. Forever young, at least in mind and spirit!

As for me, I was always put in the position of being her straight guy!

Lanny

 

[jools]

The antics of your naughty "younger" sister and the antics she got up to have really made me laugh!!

 

[jools]

On the subject of blacks, Perry, Rowangarth Solar Wind (a red brindle) who is the sire of my whippets mated a black bitch 2 years ago and produced 2 brindles, 2 red fawns and a black with lots of white trim. This year he mated her full litter sister and they produced 8 blacks with very little white trim!!

 

[aslan]

That is interesting Jools!

Just on Lanny's comments about "200 fawns" ...

If one goes to a Dobermann specialty of 200 etnries one expects to see a large percentage of black and tans, a smaller percentage of reds, maybe a blue or two and perhaps an Isabella (fawn) and if I were the judge I'd be really excited to see the latter two dilute colours, because in my experience with dobes they just don't occur all that often.

At a whippet specialty of 200 entries where the colour standard is any colour of mixture of colours I would expect and enjoy the prospect of seeing the whole gammut - I would be disappointed to be presented with 200 fawns, fawn brindles fawn particolours. (We have had this discussion before too). I am no genetics expert but I believe that black is a dominant colour and it's not like it's hard to achieve. Why is it then that there is an abundance of fawns, and brindles of many shades in the ring? Breeders, judges and exhibitors have made it so. As I've mentioned many times on this board - when I went looking for my first whippet I wanted a black and white. I was told a number of times "Why do you want a black - you won't win with it". And this came from both people who had tried and people who hadn't. The mother of my first whippet was a beautiful black and white bitch of Laguna lines and in my opinion if she were around today should still be capable of winning - but she was never titled.