Poor Blues And Blacks Again

[malin]

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i've heard from several people that putting black to black will be risking quality and bone, others say this is simply an old wives tale but i have to admit that i have never seen a black dog i liked that came from such a pairing, it's something i have never done and have turned bitches away from using my black boy simply because they were black as well.
the best blacks that i have seen have been from lines that carry both black and brindle.

Putting colour to colour should be no different than any other breeding. If you for example aim for lovely heads and put two dogs together who are excellent in this department chances are that the offspring will be too. But if they at the same time are low quality animals in all other aspects this too will be the case for the offspring!

Finding two spectacular coloured Whippets, who are sufficiently unrelated, is at this point in time not possible. If a few more of you owning one of those really big winning bitches would use a black or blue stud for her... it would be very much appreciated!!! :thumbsup:

Personally I've done both black to blue and black to black, and I will do so again when the parents compliment each other.

Im still trying to be `svelte` :- "  i dont think Ill ever be tall 

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But... aren't you already tall and well formed? :blink:

Why should they be any less capable of doing so than all of us here on this board?

Many participating in this discussion can probably be classified as breed specialists! And as said previously on this thread blues and especially blacks do better shown under breed specialists.

 

[artemis]

Have just read this thread with great interest!  As a very "novice" exibitor I have just purchased another whippet bitch who happens to be black in colour.  She has Nimrodel and Stonifleet lines.  She, I hope, will turn out to be of breed standard and I will take her into the ring and take my chance.  I would never be ashamed to be beaten by a dog of better stamp.  In fact I would genuinely be pleased for the owner/breeder.  The thing that worries me is that the breed standard states a maximum height etc yet several dogs I have seen campaigning far exceed that!  What is the point of having a breed standard if dogs are being placed when they clearly dont conform.  Perhaps that needs to be changed. I used to show "another" breed.  At a Champ show in puppy class, the winner was pulled over in the ring by the pup and went on to kiss the judge ( old friend) !  Dont think it is anything to do with colour.  Sometimes its who is on the end of the lead.  But a good dog should always win the day!   )

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Height is another rather contentious issue - perhaps this should be continued in another thread as I am sure it will generate a lot of comment!!

Wish you all the best with your new black pup.

Gill Andrew

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Thank you Gill! Will certainly do my best! :thumbsup:

 

[Seraphina]

We know enough about dog genetics today to know that the genes for solids can be passed down even when one parent is a brindle, and I am inclined to think that the brindles give something that cannot be found in a lot of the solids -- be they fawn, blue or black -- bone and substance. 

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A- "Solid" means no white (or small white spot on chest and tips of toes), solid can be fawn, black or brindle.

B- If dog is black, brindle or fawn (non-brindle) depends on the genes on locus "K".

Black is the most dominant (K) and so black can carry genes for both brindles and non-brindles (fawns).

Brindle is next in dominance, therefore brindle can carry the non-brindle gene, but not the black. Therefore even two brindles can produce fawn pups, provided that both carry the non-brindle gene.

 

[Seraphina]

Instead, when I go to England I find I have to carefully pick the shows I can attend so I don't get lulled into lala land watching nothing but 200 plus fawn dogs, few of which are distinguishable from each other,

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Hmmmmm, I just cannot help wondering how anybody, who would look at line up of 200 dogs and cannot distinguish one from another, look at litter of pups and sort them. (w00t)

and so that I can attend the limited number of shows that are left where the judges are known to accept brindles or whippets of other colours and you get to see the real diversity of whippets bred in England.

Actually, judging from the photos posted here on k9, and from visiting Whippet websites it seems to me that pretty much everywhere in the world the brindles are rather more numerous than the other colours .

It sure would be really nice to see breeders without any myopic vision of whippetdom mix it up and pay attention not to colour but  to fixing the real problems in the breed:  appalling, increasingly way too frequent, too short upper arms and restricted front movement, too little bone and substance  now, along with short boxy toplines and croups,

Actually, I have seen the above faults in many brindle particolours. Although i do nor know about the lack of bone, IMHO if anything many Whippets are far too heavy with chest more like bullterrier than a sighthound.

Lanny in Canada, where we live and breed with a heady mix of brindles from blue masked blue fawns to mahogany and black, fawns, red and whites, and whites, but sadly, no blacks.

Lets face it the "colour immaterial" statement really only applies to the judges, they ought to not judge on colour. But colouring and marking plays role in choice of pups people run on, does not matter what they say. Everybody has their likes and dislikes , Lanny obviously loves the brindles, I do not. Actually, the idea of a line up of 200 fawns would be a bliss for me :wub:

 

[chelynnah]

Good grief!  Everything evolves from people to dogs.  How would you like to look like your ancestors four centuries ago -- at a time when women were generally under five feet tall and men not much taller, with dumpy body types made in those days to perform the hard labour tasks the ordinary peasant in those days could be expected to carry out before their early deaths in their 30s or 40s?  Today people are taller, more svelte, more refined, and no one I know is hankering for that wonderful look of the past or looking to marry blokes who can give them children with overhanging brows and bodies and that look like Quasimodo!

So - you want them to evolve and change and not resemble the whippets of many years ago... But if I remember rightly on the standard thread that ended up being about height you were adamant that height should never change, the standard is the standard and we should breed to it.

I'm not really sure you can have it both ways.

However if I'm mistaken that that was your point of view on the standard revision thread I will apologise in advance.

Wendy

 

[dessie]

Black is the most dominant (K) and so black can carry genes for both  brindles and non-brindles (fawns).Brindle is next in dominance, therefore brindle can carry the non-brindle gene, but not the black.  Therefore even two brindles can produce fawn pups, provided that both carry the non-brindle gene.

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I understand the above.

But, what I cannot understand is ............ (and this is a hypothetical question)

If I mated a brindle to a black and produced a litter of blacks & brindles but kept a brindle and then mated another brindle to a black and produced another litter of blacks and brindles but kept a brindle THEN mated the two brindle offspring together, why could I not expect to produce blacks (as well as brindles)????

I keep being told that it is not possible but I don't understand WHY!!! The reasoning behind this is that I used to breed Cocker Spaniels. Chocolate roans (or chocolate & white) are a recessive colour and you need it on both sides of the pedigree to produce it BUT they can just turn up even when you mate two blue roans or a blue to an orange roan or black & white and the chocolate ancestor can be several generations back (but on both sides). So why can't the same reasoning apply to black whippets.

Replies in plain English please not genetic speak!!!!

 

[beaker]

Black is the most dominant (K) and so black can carry genes for both  brindles and non-brindles (fawns).Brindle is next in dominance, therefore brindle can carry the non-brindle gene, but not the black.  Therefore even two brindles can produce fawn pups, provided that both carry the non-brindle gene.

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I understand the above.

But, what I cannot understand is ............ (and this is a hypothetical question)

If I mated a brindle to a black and produced a litter of blacks & brindles but kept a brindle and then mated another brindle to a black and produced another litter of blacks and brindles but kept a brindle THEN mated the two brindle offspring together, why could I not expect to produce blacks (as well as brindles)????

I keep being told that it is not possible but I don't understand WHY!!! The reasoning behind this is that I used to breed Cocker Spaniels. Chocolate roans (or chocolate & white) are a recessive colour and you need it on both sides of the pedigree to produce it BUT they can just turn up even when you mate two blue roans or a blue to an orange roan or black & white and the chocolate ancestor can be several generations back (but on both sides). So why can't the same reasoning apply to black whippets.

Replies in plain English please not genetic speak!!!!

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not a reply but just to add to the confusion

i mated a solid blue dog to a silver brindle parti bitch and got 4 solid blue's + 3 solid blacks...

the blacks came as a bit of a supprise so i went to further research the colours behind the brindle bitch... i went back 7 generations, further in some lines and didn't find a single black or black parti :wacko: they were all brindles or fawns

i only owned two dogs the blue father of the litter and the brindle parti mother of the litter and she never even got sniffed at by any other dog :lol:

 

[Morgan]

Black is the most dominant (K) and so black can carry genes for both  brindles and non-brindles (fawns).Brindle is next in dominance, therefore brindle can carry the non-brindle gene, but not the black.  Therefore even two brindles can produce fawn pups, provided that both carry the non-brindle gene.

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I understand the above.

But, what I cannot understand is ............ (and this is a hypothetical question)

If I mated a brindle to a black and produced a litter of blacks & brindles but kept a brindle and then mated another brindle to a black and produced another litter of blacks and brindles but kept a brindle THEN mated the two brindle offspring together, why could I not expect to produce blacks (as well as brindles)????

I keep being told that it is not possible but I don't understand WHY!!! The reasoning behind this is that I used to breed Cocker Spaniels. Chocolate roans (or chocolate & white) are a recessive colour and you need it on both sides of the pedigree to produce it BUT they can just turn up even when you mate two blue roans or a blue to an orange roan or black & white and the chocolate ancestor can be several generations back (but on both sides). So why can't the same reasoning apply to black whippets.

Replies in plain English please not genetic speak!!!!

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This is very simple in fact Caroline )

Black is the most dominant of all coat colours, so the dog which would genetically carry it will necessarly be either black or blue (diluted version of black).

Even if a brindle was sired by a black genetically he has nothing to do with black anymore he can only be either brindle/brindle or brindle/fawn (brindle fawn carrier) so if this for example brindle bitch will be mated in order to have maybe some black or blue you must use a black or blue.

I have no idea if I made it clearer in your mind :wacko:

In my mind it's very clear but the translation to english isn't easy :b

 

[Morgan]

Black is the most dominant (K) and so black can carry genes for both  brindles and non-brindles (fawns).Brindle is next in dominance, therefore brindle can carry the non-brindle gene, but not the black.  Therefore even two brindles can produce fawn pups, provided that both carry the non-brindle gene.

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I understand the above.

But, what I cannot understand is ............ (and this is a hypothetical question)

If I mated a brindle to a black and produced a litter of blacks & brindles but kept a brindle and then mated another brindle to a black and produced another litter of blacks and brindles but kept a brindle THEN mated the two brindle offspring together, why could I not expect to produce blacks (as well as brindles)????

I keep being told that it is not possible but I don't understand WHY!!! The reasoning behind this is that I used to breed Cocker Spaniels. Chocolate roans (or chocolate & white) are a recessive colour and you need it on both sides of the pedigree to produce it BUT they can just turn up even when you mate two blue roans or a blue to an orange roan or black & white and the chocolate ancestor can be several generations back (but on both sides). So why can't the same reasoning apply to black whippets.

Replies in plain English please not genetic speak!!!!

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not a reply but just to add to the confusion

i mated a solid blue dog to a silver brindle parti bitch and got 4 solid blue's + 3 solid blacks...

the blacks came as a bit of a supprise so i went to further research the colours behind the brindle bitch... i went back 7 generations, further in some lines and didn't find a single black or black parti :wacko: they were all brindles or fawns

i only owned two dogs the blue father of the litter and the brindle parti mother of the litter and she never even got sniffed at by any other dog :lol:

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What do you mean by silver brindle? How was the dams pigmentation? Black can only be the answer then it's just normal you had some blues as well as some blacks. Blue is the same than black only with a dilution factor more.

About the markings Solid is the most dominant so considering the fact that the sire is solid (blue) it is understandable that you got only solid even if the dam is particolour.

 

[~elizabeth~]

I keep being told that it is not possible but I don't understand WHY!!!  The reasoning behind this is that I used to breed Cocker Spaniels.

The liver dilution in cocker spaniels comes from being recessive at the B locus:

"The B LOCUS: (affects all Dark pigmented areas: eyes, skin, nose, hair) (NOTE: see CREAM below)

B - (dominant) - Black (full quality and quantity of Dark-pigment granules)

b - (recessive) - Liver dilute (reduced degree of pigment formation)

The liver recessive apparently does not exist in Whippets. All Whippets are "BB" at this locus."

i only owned two dogs the blue father of the litter and the brindle parti mother of the litter and she never even got sniffed at by any other dog  :lol:

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Beaker - blue dogs are really black dogs (KK or Kk) but with the dilution (dd) factor that makes them appear blue. When a dominant colour masks other colours it is known as epistatic. Cream works in the same way.

colours you can't get...

 

[beaker]

i only owned two dogs the blue father of the litter and the brindle parti mother of the litter and she never even got sniffed at by any other dog  :lol:

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Beaker - blue dogs are really black dogs (KK or Kk) but with the dilution (dd) factor that makes them appear blue. When a dominant colour masks other colours it is known as epistatic. Cream works in the same way.

colours you can't get...

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so could two blue dogs produce black?

if not then the black pigment must have come from the brindle

or is my login skew :blink:

 

[Morgan]

i only owned two dogs the blue father of the litter and the brindle parti mother of the litter and she never even got sniffed at by any other dog  :lol:

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Beaker - blue dogs are really black dogs (KK or Kk) but with the dilution (dd) factor that makes them appear blue. When a dominant colour masks other colours it is known as epistatic. Cream works in the same way.

colours you can't get...

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so could two blue dogs produce black?

if not then the black pigment must have come from the brindle

or is my login skew :blink:

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Too dilutes put together can't produce anything else than dilutes

 

[~elizabeth~]

so could two blue dogs produce black?
if not then the black pigment must have come from the brindle

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No. Because dilution is recessive, if both parents have the dilute version of the gene ALL their offspring will too; however, because it is recessive, some dogs will carry it and its presence will not show.

Epistatic black can't come from brindle. When you cross a blue (dd) with a non blue (DD) (i.e. 'silver' brindle) you get offspring that are Dd. But your brindle MAY actually have been carrying blue (Dd), so some of the offspring will end up dd if they inherit the recessive dilution gene from the other parent as well.

If the other parent is KKdd (ie true blue) ALL the offspring will be Kk, which will look black and, if they have inherited dd, look blue (diluted black).

The fact that all the litter were solid blacks or blues suggests the genotype of the blue parent was KKdd; if it had been Kkdd, there would have been some brindles. It is explained on the 'what you can't get', honestly.

In genetic terms, blue brindle (where the black stripes, mask etc are diluted to blue) is a more significant term than 'silver' brindle, by which I assume you mean a very light brindle but where the stripes are still due to black-pigmented hairs. :unsure:

If the 'silver' brindle bitch had actually been a blue brindle, then all the puppies should have been blue, with no blacks as both parents would have been dd, and passed this on to ALL their offspring. Is that what you meant?

 

[beaker]

In genetic terms, blue brindle (where the black stripes, mask etc are diluted to blue) is a more significant term than 'silver' brindle, by which I assume you mean a very light brindle but where the stripes are still due to black-pigmented hairs.  :unsure:
If the 'silver' brindle bitch had actually been a blue brindle, then all the puppies should have been blue, with no blacks as both parents would have been dd, and passed this on to ALL their offspring. Is that what you meant?

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er yeah :wacko: thats what i meant

this is mum and dad btw :thumbsup:

 

[Millie]

I mated the two whippets in the picture and got the puppy also in the pic. Sadly he only lived until three weeks of age but up until that time we never found a brindle line on him :blink:

 

[jok]

I find the colour genetics in Whippets fascinating. Is there any link anyone knows of that explains things further? I have looked at the one on Deb's website (Denimonde) several times. Colour seems to get particularly confusing when parti's / extreme whites are thrown into the mix. :wacko:

It is much easier to understand in Dobermann's. Although i still have trouble explaining to people that my Brown Dobermann has a black mum and dad :blink:

 

[Morgan]

I mated the two whippets in the picture and got the puppy also in the pic. Sadly he only lived until three weeks of age but up until that time we never found a brindle line on him  :blink:

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Maybe he was a very dark "charbonné" in French , a kind of black mask all over body like a lot of Italian Greyhounds have, and you couldn't see it because unfortunatly he didn't live long enough

 

[dessie]

Black is the most dominant (K) and so black can carry genes for both  brindles and non-brindles (fawns).Brindle is next in dominance, therefore brindle can carry the non-brindle gene, but not the black.  Therefore even two brindles can produce fawn pups, provided that both carry the non-brindle gene.

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I understand the above.

But, what I cannot understand is ............ (and this is a hypothetical question)

If I mated a brindle to a black and produced a litter of blacks & brindles but kept a brindle and then mated another brindle to a black and produced another litter of blacks and brindles but kept a brindle THEN mated the two brindle offspring together, why could I not expect to produce blacks (as well as brindles)????

I keep being told that it is not possible but I don't understand WHY!!! The reasoning behind this is that I used to breed Cocker Spaniels. Chocolate roans (or chocolate & white) are a recessive colour and you need it on both sides of the pedigree to produce it BUT they can just turn up even when you mate two blue roans or a blue to an orange roan or black & white and the chocolate ancestor can be several generations back (but on both sides). So why can't the same reasoning apply to black whippets.

Replies in plain English please not genetic speak!!!!

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This is very simple in fact Caroline )

Black is the most dominant of all coat colours, so the dog which would genetically carry it will necessarly be either black or blue (diluted version of black).

Even if a brindle was sired by a black genetically he has nothing to do with black anymore he can only be either brindle/brindle or brindle/fawn (brindle fawn carrier) so if this for example brindle bitch will be mated in order to have maybe some black or blue you must use a black or blue.

I have no idea if I made it clearer in your mind :wacko:

In my mind it's very clear but the translation to english isn't easy :b

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Thanks Tamara but I'm afraid I must be really thick because that just does not make sense to me!!! Are you saying that even though a brindle has black predecessors, just because it's coat colour is not black but is brindle that it has no black genes?????? How can that be???

Charbonne (sorry can't do the accent over the e!) - I like that word and will bear it in mind for a name!!! I translate that as 'sooty', very appropriate WHEN I breed my black (or blue :b ) from two brindles!!! LOL!! ) :lol: :- "

 

[~elizabeth~]

Thanks Tamara but I'm afraid I must be really thick because that just does not make sense to me!!!  Are you saying that even though a brindle has black predecessors, just because it's coat colour is not black but is brindle that it has no black genes??????  How can that be???
Charbonne (sorry can't do the accent over the e!) -  I like that word and will bear it in mind for a name!!!  I translate that as 'sooty', very appropriate WHEN I breed my black (or blue  :b ) from two brindles!!!   LOL!!   )   :lol:   :- "

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Now this is where I get confused. I always thought brindle was a modifying allele on the K locus, so that brindle is Kbr (i.e. dominant black with a modifying brindling factor that masks out areas of black pigment). However straight K is dominant to Kbr. On Bellsouth, brindle is expressed as kbr; on all other canine coat colour sites it's Kbr. :wacko:

Charbonné = sabling? :unsure:

 

[malin]

Are you saying that even though a brindle has black predecessors, just because it's coat colour is not black but is brindle that it has no black genes??????

That is exactly it!! If it is brindle or fawn it does not carry the gene for black colour. Even if a brindle dog is the result of breeding black to black for several generations this holds true.

How can that be???

Mathematics :- "