Poor Blues And Blacks Again

[jok]

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Dessie, im not sure if this will make it easier for you to understand, or will confuse you more, but i'll have a go.

Im using my Dobermann example to simplify ( i know whippets is more complicated). My Chloe is Brown, however her parents are both Black. Brown is recessive, so both her parents had to be carriers of the brown gene.

BB = black

Bb = black, brown carrier (Chloe's parents)

bb = brown

As Chloe has to be 'bb', she herself is not a carrier of any black genes, despite her parentage. She could however produce a black puppy if mated to a BB or Bb.

The puppies get one 'letter' from each parent.

Sorry if this has confused things further

 

[Seraphina]

Thanks Tamara but I'm afraid I must be really thick because that just does not make sense to me!!!  Are you saying that even though a brindle has black predecessors, just because it's coat colour is not black but is brindle that it has no black genes??????  How can that be???

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All genes come in pairs = every individual has ONLY 2 genes on one particular locus, however some loci have several possible varietions. The locus K genes come in 3 variateties

K=black

kbr=brindle

k=non brindle

The black is dominant, that means if it is present it is ALWAYS expressed= the dog is black. Black dog can be KK = has 2 black genes, therefore can only pass black genes on and ALL his off spring will be black (or blue, if he also carries the blue dilute gene). Or black dog can be K kbr, that means he can produce brindle pups if mated to brindle or fawn. Or he can be Kk, that means he can produce fawns if mated to fawn bitch or brindle bitch carrying fawn gene, or black bitch carrying fawn gene.

Best way to get hang of is to write it down;

Black dog (carrying brindle) X Brindle bitch(carrying fawn) = K kbr X kbrk

each pup has to get one gene from mum and one from dad, so the possible variations are;

Kk = black carrying fawn

Kkbr=black carrying brindle

kbr kbr=brindle

kbrk=brindle carrying fawn

it is easier when you are writing it down yourself

 

[Seraphina]

In genetic terms, blue brindle (where the black stripes, mask etc are diluted to blue) is a more significant term than 'silver' brindle, by which I assume you mean a very light brindle but where the stripes are still due to black-pigmented hairs.  :unsure:
If the 'silver' brindle bitch had actually been a blue brindle, then all the puppies should have been blue, with no blacks as both parents would have been dd, and passed this on to ALL their offspring. Is that what you meant?

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er yeah :wacko: thats what i meant

this is mum and dad btw :thumbsup:

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The colour of the dog is determined by several genes influencing each other. Each variety has a specific role, the locus "D" has only 2 possibilities; the dominant D = full pigment or the blue dilution d. If the dog has the DD or Dd genes that means that ALL black hair on his body will have full pigment = will be black. If he has dd ALL black pigment will become diluted to blue. Genetically there no such a thing as "silver", she is full pigmented (light) fawn; and full pigmented brindle or fawn will pass her D gene to her off spring, so when mated to blue can produce blacks. :thumbsup:

D kbr X ddK = Dd Kkbr

 

[Seraphina]

I mated the two whippets in the picture and got the puppy also in the pic. Sadly he only lived until three weeks of age but up until that time we never found a brindle line on him  :blink:

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Maybe he was a very dark "charbonné" in French , a kind of black mask all over body like a lot of Italian Greyhounds have, and you couldn't see it because unfortunatly he didn't live long enough

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There would have been tell tale trace of fawn if you parted his fur. Or was there any chance of ?

 

[Seraphina]

If I mated a brindle to a black and produced a litter of blacks & brindles but kept a brindle and then mated another brindle to a black  and produced another litter of blacks and brindles but kept a brindle  THEN mated the two brindle offspring together, why could I not expect to produce blacks (as well as brindles)????
I keep being told that it is not possible but I don't understand WHY!!!  The reasoning behind this is that I used to breed Cocker Spaniels.  Chocolate roans (or chocolate & white) are a recessive colour and you need it on both sides of the pedigree to produce it BUT they can just turn up even when you mate two blue roans or a blue to an orange roan or black & white and the chocolate ancestor can be several generations back (but on both sides).  So why can't the same reasoning apply to black whippets.

Replies in plain English please not genetic speak!!!!

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Black is dominant, the dilutes and markings you are talking about are recessive;

Dominant = this gene cannot be hidden, if the dog has it you can see it

Recessive= this gene can be hidden - carried for infinite number of generations and will not become obvious unless it is paired up with the same or even more recessive gene

Say you would breed black to brindle;

KK X kbr kbr = Kkbr

If you keep breeding this black carrying brindle to double blacks, you would be getting 2 types of blacks ;

KK or Kkbr

The only way to find out which pup is which would be by breeing to fawn or brindle - the KK will produce only blacks , the Kkbr will also throw some brindle.

But in any case it would be possible that after many generations you would still have Kkbr and if you mate him to Kk or Kkbr, the recessive will re-emerge; you would get some brindle pups, or as with the cockers roans, liver etc.

 

[chelynnah]

I find the colour genetics in Whippets fascinating.  Is there any link anyone knows of that explains things further?  I have looked at the one on Deb's website (Denimonde) several times.  Colour seems to get particularly confusing when parti's / extreme whites are thrown into the mix. :wacko:
It is much easier to understand in Dobermann's.  Although i still have trouble explaining to people that my Brown Dobermann has a black mum and dad :blink:

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This is a GREAT site. Karen is very up with colour genetics

http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/d/ddoggone/Homep...s/Genetics.html

Wendy

 

[dessie]

I find the colour genetics in Whippets fascinating.  Is there any link anyone knows of that explains things further?  I have looked at the one on Deb's website (Denimonde) several times.  Colour seems to get particularly confusing when parti's / extreme whites are thrown into the mix. :wacko:
It is much easier to understand in Dobermann's.  Although i still have trouble explaining to people that my Brown Dobermann has a black mum and dad :blink:

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This is a GREAT site. Karen is very up with colour genetics

http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/d/ddoggone/Homep...s/Genetics.html

Wendy

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Yep, seen that, site visit it quite a lot but I am still not convinced about not being able to produce blacks from two black-bred brindles!!! I can see this is going to become my life mission!!!!

And we did part the fur on Millie's 'black' puppy and there was no other colour there. Believe me, we examined that poor puppy minutely!!! Also, he was not what I would call a 'wishy washy' black (or sable as I think they probably are), he was a good true black.

 

[dessie]

Dessie, im not sure if this will make it easier for you to understand, or will confuse you more, but i'll have a go.
Im using my Dobermann example to simplify ( i know whippets is more complicated).  My Chloe is Brown, however her parents are both Black.  Brown is recessive, so both her parents had to be carriers of the brown gene.

BB = black

Bb = black, brown carrier (Chloe's parents)

bb = brown

As Chloe has to be 'bb', she herself is not a carrier of any black genes, despite her parentage.  She could however produce a black puppy if mated to a BB or Bb.

The puppies get one 'letter' from each parent.

Sorry if this has confused things further

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No, I understand about dominant and recessive (forget all the silly little letter things!!!) and the brown Dobe would be the same as the chocolate cockers so, therefore, to me trying to be logical, more colours should be possible with Whippets as we have such a great diversity of colours/shades/markings.

 

[~elizabeth~]

Some links on brindling...

Bowling coat colour genetics

Finding the brindle gene...

Stanford university brindling study...

tenset phenotype predictor...

 

[malin]

Yep, seen that, site  visit it quite a lot but I am still not convinced about not being able to produce blacks from two black-bred brindles!!!  I can see this is going to become my life mission!!!!
And we did part the fur on Millie's 'black' puppy and there was no other colour there.  Believe me, we examined that poor puppy minutely!!!  Also, he was not what I would call a 'wishy washy' black (or sable as I think they probably are), he was a good true black.

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I know of a "black" produced from two brindle parents... not until after 12 months of age did the brindling start to break through. No, it isn't possible to produce a genetic black from two brindle parents. 8)

 

[Morgan]

Caroline,

In my latest litter I had a pup, "Neo" who looked black until 4 weeks of age... I knew he wasn't black just because I had 6 others blacks (real ones :lol: ) in the same litter, he was really looking black without brindlings but you could see a slight difference between Neo and the others....

At Birth here's Neo the "false black"

and one of the "real blacks" Jazz (T. Black Mamba)

If I would have no blacks at all in the litter I think I would have taken Neo for a black :lol: , and he had good "excuse" his mum being black

here's the false black aged 6 1/2 months:

Taraly Beloved at Whiptails

(w00t) (w00t) (w00t) :- " :lol:

 

[dessie]

Caroline,
In my latest litter I had a pup, "Neo" who looked black until 4 weeks of age... I knew he wasn't black just because I had 6 others blacks (real ones  :lol: ) in the same litter, he was really looking black without brindlings but you could see a slight difference between Neo and the others....

At Birth here's Neo the "false black"

and one of the "real blacks" Jazz (T. Black Mamba)

If I would have no blacks at all in the litter I think I would have taken Neo for a black :lol: , and he had good "excuse" his mum being black    

here's the false black aged 6 1/2 months:

Taraly Beloved at Whiptails

(w00t)   (w00t)   (w00t)   :- "  :lol:

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Tamara, Neo is sooooooooooooooo lovely!!!

Real blacks :lol: :lol: !!! LOL!!!

It is such a shame that the little puppy did not survive as we will never know now what colour he would have been ............... he may have been black! :- " :teehee:

 

[dragonfly]

Yep, seen that, site  visit it quite a lot but I am still not convinced about not being able to produce blacks from two black-bred brindles!!!  I can see this is going to become my life mission!!!!

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Please find another one ~ Yours is mission impossible

You can produce a black from a black brindle and a BLUE of course as the brindle is not dilute and "undilutes" the blue.

Cathie

Bluestreak

Here are some of my colours Those blacks are by a red brindle out of a blue. The mother of the fawns playing nursemaid to the lot is CH. Bluestreak Brief Encounter

 

[beaker]

oooo Neo is really nice, :wub:

i so love black brindles,

i've totally fallen in love with my friends black brindle greyhound girlie pup, appparently she was totally black at birth :wub:

 

[dessie]

oooo Neo is really nice, :wub:
i so love black brindles,

i've totally fallen in love with my friends black brindle greyhound girlie pup, appparently she was totally black at birth  :wub:

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Yes now that is what I call a black brindle, don't seem to see that much in Whippets, think I have only ever seen one. I've got a couple of black brindle boys ...... anyone want to use one on their blue girlie????

 

[dessie]

Yep, seen that, site  visit it quite a lot but I am still not convinced about not being able to produce blacks from two black-bred brindles!!!   I can see this is going to become my life mission!!!!

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Please find another one ~ Yours is mission impossible

You can produce a black from a black brindle and a BLUE of course as the brindle is not dilute and "undilutes" the blue.

Cathie

Bluestreak

Here are some of my colours Those blacks are by a red brindle out of a blue. The mother of the fawns playing nursemaid to the lot is CH. Bluestreak Brief Encounter

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LOL!! Common on Cathie ............. nothing's impossible!!!

 

[Karen]

In a breed who's standard say 'any colour or mixture of colours' you lot are certainly OBSESSED with colour.

If anyone has got a blue bitch to take to Dessies dog Pleeeeeeeese make sure its a good example of the breed :- "

Neo is very nice Tamara, for a false black

 

[beaker]

oooo Neo is really nice, :wub:
i so love black brindles,

i've totally fallen in love with my friends black brindle greyhound girlie pup, appparently she was totally black at birth  :wub:

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Yes now that is what I call a black brindle, don't seem to see that much in Whippets, think I have only ever seen one. I've got a couple of black brindle boys ...... anyone want to use one on their blue girlie????

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:wub: if i had a blue girlie.....

 

[Morgan]

In a breed who's standard say 'any colour or mixture of colours' you lot are certainly OBSESSED with colour.
If anyone has got a blue bitch to take to Dessies dog Pleeeeeeeese make sure its a good example of the breed :- "

Neo is very nice Tamara, for a false black

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I like black but I am far from being obsessed . In fact my blacks/brindles are THE SAME in my breeding programms with same bloodlines and I don't make ANY difference between them.

Neo is very nice Tamara, for a false black :lol:

 

[jok]

In a breed who's standard say 'any colour or mixture of colours' you lot are certainly OBSESSED with colour.
If anyone has got a blue bitch to take to Dessies dog Pleeeeeeeese make sure its a good example of the breed :- "

Neo is very nice Tamara, for a false black

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It's not a case of being obsessed with colour (certainly not in my case anyway ). I just think it's so interesting looking at the wide variety of colours and mixtures we get in Whippets. Especially how we can get so much variation in the same litter. Don't get that with most breeds.