Puppies Developement

[whipowill]

Join our free community today.

Connect with other like-minded dog lovers!

Login or Register

> I would not recommend breeding from these dogs, however.
Why?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Cryptorchidism is heritable. Because I am of the opinion that removing intra-abdominal testes is the best thing to do with these animals, I cannot recommend that a future generation of dogs which are at risk of this condition are bred. It is in my opinion wrong to breed dogs which will need major exploratory abdominal surgery early on in life (revenue generator or not, for those cynics among you!).

The following link may be of interest. I'd also like to highlight the connection between cryptorchidism and other congenital abnormalities. It's well recognised amongst our domestic species (and also humans, I believe) that individuals born with a defect very commonly exhibit multiple defects, many of which can go undetected in early life.

Canine and Feline Cryptorchidism

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Thanks for the link Kettlechips :thumbsup:

I chose to desex my vizsla pup at five months as he was going to a pet home in another country (Aussie living in South East Asia)and it was befor email and it was going to be almost impossible to ensure that it was done. I felt it was the most responsible thing that I could do given the circumstances.

 

[BeeJay]

Thanks for the link. :thumbsup:

It's clarified some matters for me. Such as when the inguinal ring is likely to be closed by.

What's also interesting is the link with this condition and other congenital defects. So it's not 'just' a problem with having to have major surgery (I agree with your comment on that btw).

 

[aslan]

You are the one who has attacked me;

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Perhaps "attacked" is a little too harsh a choice of word Lida? It did not appear to me that either of you had attacked the other. It did however appear that you were giving Caroline advice to go and speak to other breeders because you were not aware of her long experience in whippets (which can sting a little bit when you are experienced) when perhaps it was actually general advice and not directed specifically at Caroline?

We are all here in order to share experiences and voice opinions. And I thought we were doing that rather well in this topic. Let's continue to do it calmly and be kind to each other That is, after all, the reason we all like k9 so much.

 

[Seraphina]

[

Perhaps "attacked" is a little too harsh a choice of word Lida? It did not appear to me that either of you had attacked the other. It did however appear that you were giving Caroline advice to go and speak to other breeders because you were not aware of her long experience in whippets (which can sting a little bit when you are experienced) when perhaps it was actually general advice and not directed specifically at Caroline?

We are all here in order to share experiences and voice opinions. And I thought we were doing that rather well in this topic. Let's continue to do it calmly and be kind to each other That is, after all, the reason we all like k9 so much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Sorry, I certainly do not want to offend anybody. i have absolutely no idea who this person is. But she repeatedly claims that what i have experienced over many years and many litters cannot be true.

cheers Lida

 

[JAX]

Thanks for the link ILKC , My sister breds Persian cats and bred a litter last year and kept a female and a male , the boy never developed any testicles so was homed as a pet and she has kept the female for showing and breeding , will the fact that the brother had no testicles carry through the female line ? She is a beautiful girl and doing very well at shows :wub:

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

will the fact that the brother had no testicles carry through the female line ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Now you're asking!

If the reason that the male cat has no testes is because they are intra-abdominal then yes, possibly (although I'm not sure if it is a sexlinked gene in cats). If it was a congenital abnormality eg there were never any testes and the male cat is just an 'accident' if you like, then probably not. My genetics is a bit lacking for this sort of thing, I'm afraid!

 

[JAX]

will the fact that the brother had no testicles carry through the female line ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Now you're asking!

If the reason that the male cat has no testes is because they are intra-abdominal then yes, possibly (although I'm not sure if it is a sexlinked gene in cats). If it was a congenital abnormality eg there were never any testes and the male cat is just an 'accident' if you like, then probably not. My genetics is a bit lacking for this sort of thing, I'm afraid!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Thanks for that anyway . I do know that when the vet went to castrate (or whatever they do if they arnt there ) the cat , but he couldnt find any at all :blink:

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

Thanks for that anyway . I do know that when the vet went to castrate (or whatever they do if they arnt there ) the cat , but he couldnt find any at all :blink:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

There's mention of cats in the link I posted earlier on this thread - maybe pass it on to your sister (she probably knows more about cats' testicles than I do - I just chop them off (w00t) ).

 

[Seraphina]

Hi ILKC

I just remembered a Great Dane bitch who had only half of uterus, she had only one horn, one ovary. It was discovered when she was desexed at the age of about 7 years and it explained why she had only 3 and then 5 pups in her two litters.

I'd imagine that would be a female version of an monorchid. One of her male pups had bit of a problem with testicles if I remember correctly (I never saw this litter - my friend lived interstate), One of the testis came down latish.

Do you come across bitchews with only one horn of the uterus?

Lida

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

Hi ILKC I just remembered a Great Dane bitch  who had only half of uterus, she had only one horn, one ovary.  It was discovered when she was desexed at the age of about 7 years and it explained why she had only 3 and then 5 pups in her two litters. 

I'd imagine that would be a female version of an monorchid.  One of her male pups had bit of a problem with testicles if I remember correctly (I never saw this litter - my friend lived interstate),  One of the testis came down latish.

Do you come across bitchews with only one horn of the uterus?

Lida

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

The simple answer is yes, you can do. Never seen one myself, but it can happen.

It's similar to monorchidism, yes, although I think much less common. I'm doubtful about whether the male pup with the slow descending testis was anything to do with this though, because absent reproductive organs are not quite the same as improperly positioned ones. Pups which go on to become cryptorchid are not anatomically different from normal pups at birth, whereas monorchid pups are one testicle less! My opinion would be that the bitch's deformity was purely a congenital defect and probably not heritable.

 

[Ridgesetter]

[What I notice is experianced dog people from other breeds coming in to whippet bringing along concerns from other breeds making it an issue although those issues are not problems in whippet.

Henrik Härling

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I've followed this thread with great interest and am glad that it's being discussed as it is only through such discussion that we can learn about our breed and try to avoid duplicating problems in the future.

I've been involved with dogs for a while now and either bred or been close to many litters of several breeds and it's only in whippets that I have experienced cryptorchids, cleft palates and severe heart disease.

(Just to clarify, the vets and genetic books technically list the problem as cryptorchid and then classify as bilateral or unilateral.)

During my time in whippets I have felt extremely frustrated particularly over what appears to me, a lack of concern regarding testes in whippets. I may be wrong but people in the breed and outside seem to acknowledge that there is a problem with testes but I don't see a concerted effort to track and try to reduce the problem. I'm not suggesting that we start a witchhunt, but if we want the problem reduced, we need to do something.

I may be different to many whippeteers, but I don't want cryptorchidism in any of my litters or siblings of my prospective studs to have produced the problem. I appreciate the saying "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" but where does it start and stop? I once produced a litter which had 4 males - all bilateral cyptorchids. For me, it was a total waste of a litter. Yes, one of the bitches was bred and from a litter of 8 she produced 3 unilateral cryptorchids and 3 entire males. A litter sister was bred and produced 1 unilateral cryptorchid. His desexing at 7 months required two surgical incisions (as the teste was up next to the right kidney, a full day at the vet, and extra painkillers. A situation I don't want to repeat.

Some breeders say 'don't worry, just keep a bitch', and maybe that's why bitches well and truly outnumber males in the showring and good males appear thin on the ground where I am. Some, not all, of the bitches will carry the gene and so it will keep popping up.

I work on the premise that the testes should be apparent at 4 weeks and be evident to me and the vet at 6 weeks, and fully descended by 8 - 10 weeks - none of this up and down business.

Some years ago, I know of a lovely dog that had two perfectly descended testes at 12 weeks and at 4 months, one was popping up and down. The owner had it stitched in place (another issue) but the teste still went up and the dog was desexed and moved to a pet home.

Probably if I had started with whippets, I would be more relaxed, but I've not experienced it with my other breeds and, therefore, have tended to try and understand why this happens. I can state that the right teste is always the first to come down and the left follows (related to position of the kidneys in the body my vet told me). Therefore, if I have a pup with only a left teste and the right either not there or going up and down, I would worry. If I have a right descended and the left going up and down, I'm reasonably confident all will be okay. If the right is there and no sign of the left, my experience is it won't come down.

Sorry to bore you all but I sincerely hope we all get something out of this topic which can only improve the future. I know I'm still learning.

In the big picture, it's not a life threatening problem, and there are sure to be much more important health concerns, but I'd still prefer not to have to worry about another litter of males with no testes. Guess for now my 4 legged boys are still going to spend a lot of their time on their backs while I stroke away making sure those elusive bumps haven't gone north. :sweating:

Cheers from Downunder

 

[playawhile]

Hi!

I think one of the reasons, maybe, why the problems with testicles have not been a top priority is that it is a bit of a “luxury problem” compared to many others. Autoimmune disorders and heart problems for instance are so much more sever for a dog. In most cases a chryptorchid dog do not suffer. In Sweden a couple of years back a sub committee (to the Swedish Whippet Club) dealing with health issues proposed that a dog or a bitch coming from a litter were two litter brothers were not entire should be excluded from breeding in the future. Off course this sounded good but what you don’t know how many percentage of the gene pool that actually will be excluded. If a high percentage of the gene pool is not available the breed could suffer in other ways when there are not enough individuals to breed from. In the case of basenjis they decided to breed out an anomaly and what happened was that other serious health problems turned up instead. Genealogists warn breed clubs to focus too much on one problem.

What we suffer from today is what happened in the breed long ago when not entire dogs were allowed to breed from. Today we don’t know anything about certain key dogs – dogs turning up thousands and thousands of times behind our whippets – and if they were entire. Just to take one hypothetical case, what if Willesberg a non-titled extremely influential stud dog wasn’t entire?? As he is behind our modern whippets over and over again and if he wasn’t entire can this be a genetic load today???

In the health surveys that has been done in Sweden the percentage of dogs that are not entire had gone down from 15% in 1990 to about 11% in 2000. One of the reasons for this might be that we had a large wave of imports from all over the world during this period and this meant that more outcrosses were carried out. Could that be one problem solver??

Henrik Härling

 

[Millie]

I also found this on the Link that ILKC posted..............

Although the genetics of cryptorchidism in dogs is incompletely characterized, there is enough data to aid in genetic counseling. Inheritance of isolated cryptorchidism as a sex-limited recessive trait is consistent with available data. Using this model, the first recommendation is that affected dogs be removed from the breeding population. The second recommendation is that both the father and mother of affected dogs should be considered to be carriers. Some full siblings of the affected dog will also be carriers. In other species in which cryptorchidism occurs as a recessive trait, a reduction in the frequency of affected animals was obtained in a few generations by removing carrier parents and affected males from the breeding population. This is probably the minimum program that should be pursued in dogs.

Although medical regimens have been suggested to induce testicular descent in cryptorchid dogs, there are no published reports to confirm that these are more successful than no treatment at all. If the testes descend several months after birth, this is delayed descent which has been documented in lines of dogs that have a high incidence of cryptorchidism [20]. Thus dogs with late descent may be a variant of the cryptorchid phenotype, and could still transmit genes for this defect to their offspring.

When the genetic causes of cryptorchidism are discovered, it should be possible to identify carriers of this trait with certainty. Recent experiments in mice indicate that androgen is necessary for degeneration of the cranial suspensory ligament of the embryonic testis while Insl3, an insulin-like hormone secreted by Leydig cells, is necessary for gubernacular development independent of androgens [21]. Mice that are homozygous for Insl3 deletions are bilaterally cryptorchid, but have no other reproductive tract abnormalities. It is possible that Insl3 mutations are responsible for this condition in dogs, but it is also possible that the genetic control of testicular descent in dogs may differ from that in mice.

 

[Karen]

Just come back to this thread, blimey its going around the houses a bit.

I never have seen testes at birth in our breed or any other running dog most of which I have had a long expierence with. Ive had one or two up and downers and would pet home at 4 months if not fully down. Im not a great one for fiddling about trying to get them down, no shaking, flicking or squeezing here, because, I firmly believe that if you are having problems like that then they will breed on.

I also think there is far too much of a 'blind eye' turned regarding this problem. It sometimes seems like its the norm to have dog puppies in a litter with one or no testicles. As for just keeping the bitches, well how daft is that, you are just breeding on the problem. I think its time for some real honesty even if its only on the individuals part, be honest with yourself and dont breed from anything you think has a hereditary condition. And the very worst is breeding problems. Once again it seems like the CO is lagging behind other countries in addressing this issue.

 

[janfiers]

It's good all the debate and info regarding testicles. Agree with Lana that at times it did get a bit heated.

I noticed that there was a referral to Cleft Palates and Heart Disease from one of our Australian K9'ers. I can honestly say that in all the time I have had Whippets and my mate has had them even longer, we have never experienced either condition. We're not naive enought to think it never happens but from the way in which the post was written, is it common in Australia, for these conditions to be experienced?

Have experienced testicles that go up and down like a yo yo, and like Jax, have spent many hours teasing them down, and yes the dog did enjoy it! Anxiety does make a dog draw them up whilst a puppy but that then is down to us to ensure that there first experiences at the showing game are good ones.

I also agree that there is no need to feel for a dogs bits at ringcraft class until or unless the owner is happy for you to do so. At the ringcraft class which I run, it is a rule that bits are never felt on the first 3 occasions, and not after that unless the owner wants it to happen. We just ask the question first.

It is essential that any handling of any dog, for that matter, is done gently and with sympathy, no matter what their. You do see and experience judges who are very heavy in their handling, older terrier people in particular can be guilty of this. Wouldn't be the first time I have asked a judge not to be so heavy handed. Have usually been chucked out when this has happened, but who cares, would sooner have a relaxed and happy dog. That judge is then placed on my black-list for ever. Even if they did judge the breed at Crufts, I would still not enter under them.

Soap Box over.

JanF

 

[Seraphina]

Hi!

In the health surveys that has been done in Sweden the percentage of dogs that are not entire had gone down from 15% in 1990 to about 11% in 2000. One of the reasons for this might be that we had a large wave of imports from all over the world during this period and this meant that more outcrosses were carried out. Could that be one problem solver??

Henrik Härling

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

It may very well be the case, and there are many other good reasons why we should broadden our genetic pooI. That may also improve some of the other inherited defects. Especially in countries like Australia. Due to our very strict quarantine laws it used to be very difficult and expensive to bring over new bloodlines. So our dogs were very closely bred.

Thankfully, now it is a lot easier (if not cheaper) and we have some good imports. As far as I am concerned more the better.!!!

cheers Lida

 

[Seraphina]

Hi everybody;

I am glad that finally this discussion is becoming exactly what I intended it to be when I raised my concerns. The trouble with this sort of forum is that expressing our opinion on such a complicated subject in just few sentences is very difficult.

And of-course, some inherited defects are more serious than others. However, most problems are not apparent until later, when they cause a health problem and even then are usually only diagnosed after some tests. With the testicles the breeder knows from the beginning.

I used to consider it normal for testicles to be down at birth, and I still think that is probably the ideal situation. But, I do accept that “soon after birth” is adequate. What is really important is WHEN DOES IT BECOME TOO LATE? Eight weeks, twelve weeks, 5 months????? (w00t)

As Henrik suggests our problems stem from some famous stud dog that was used to mate large number of bitches. I am sure that is correct and we should try not to repeat this mistake.

Sometime ago I have discussed with a friend the feasibility of organizing anonymous survey of breeders to determine the prevalence of birth defects in Whippets. But came to a conclusion that many people would either not co-operate or their data may not be reliable. Pity.

Cheers Lida

 

[Ridgesetter]

With the reference to Australian whippets, no it's not usual to experience cleft palates and heart disease but they are there, and not just in Australia.

Henrik, I completely agree with your post that we shouldn't dwell too much on one issue otherwise we would probably find we end up with something worse. Willis spoke about Golden Retrievers concentrating on reducing HD but they ended up with other problems in place. There's a fine balance. However, I would like to reduce the incidence in my litters and to achieve this, I need knowledge and experience from others.

I agree that heart disease is much more serious and a life threatening problem and much more difficult to eliminate, but as with the cryptorchidism problem, I'm not entirely sure that we are doing anything or being given the knowledge to be able to reduce the incidence.

Back to testes, Millie is touching on what I was getting at. There is cryptorchidism in many breeds but I don't know of many breeds where the testes are so late in coming down as they are in whippets or even the up and down scenario. Is the problem because of quickly closing inguinal rings, short gubernaculars, or are the kidneys positioned higher or lower than other breeds which in turn is affecting the testes?

I'm not sure about excluding dogs or bitches from breeding but I'm very much in support of breed surveys similar to what occurs with German Shepherds. Informed decisions about colour, size, testes, longevity and other health issues make breeding an easier decision and stop gossip and rumours which can only be a positive thing. :thumbsup:

 

[Seraphina]

Well, maybe we could try a little anonymous survey asking people the number of pups they whelped that had cleft palate, spina bifida, heart problem etc. And what was the number of pups having both testicles by certain age. That would give us some idea of the occurrence of these problems in the Whippet population over all, without anybody being named. While by no means perfect, it would be a start.

Henrik; how do you get breeders to provide the data for the Swedish survey?

Lida

 

[whipowill]

I am another who has come into whippets after having owned and bred other breeds. Like Ridgesetter I have always found it unsettling that missing testes in whippets was a problem that just seemed to be accepted.

I agree cleft-palates and heart disease would certainly be more life threatening to the individual animal and certainly something we should work to eliminate from the breed.

I had always had in the back of mind from something that a read many moons ago that as two missing testicles produced an infertile animal it should be considered as an abnomality that was potentially lethal to breed.

I offer the following thought - :unsure: would we accept it if bitches in this breed had problems that precluded the same number of them from being bred from?

What we really need is for the genetic markers for this and other problems to be identified, hopefully at some time in the not too distant furture so that individual animals could be tested and withdrawn from the gene pool voluntarily so that we do not make the mistake of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

My first breed was the Hungarian Vizsla which is a breed affected by idiopathic epilsey. The Vizsla Club of America is funding research into this problem and attempting to have the genetic markers for this identified. At the recent National Events a volantary blood draw was organised. The researchers will accept blood samples from all over the world. They need samples from affected dogs, carriers and those who appear to be clear of the problem for their research.

Just some food for thought!!!