Puppies Developement

[Seraphina]

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I offer the following thought -  :unsure: would we accept it if bitches in this breed had problems that precluded the same number of them from being bred from?

Just some food for thought!!!

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The difference between a bitch and dog is that a bitch can have only so many litters in her life = limited impact on future generations. While a one famous stud dog can produce huge number of litters and therefore have an enormous impact. Especially as many people are very likely to linebreed to the top winning dog.

For the same reason people generally keep more bitches than dogs. I think it is perfectly natural that the dog classes would be smaller than bitch classes.

Lida

 

[whipowill]

 
I offer the following thought -  :unsure: would we accept it if bitches in this breed had problems that precluded the same number of them from being bred from?

Just some food for thought!!!

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The difference between a bitch and dog is that a bitch can have only so many litters in her life = limited impact on future generations. While a one famous stud dog can produce huge number of litters and therefore have an enormous impact. Especially as many people are very likely to linebreed to the top winning dog.

For the same reason people generally keep more bitches than dogs. I think it is perfectly natural that the dog classes would be smaller than bitch classes.

Lida

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Just to clarify my question about " would we accept it if bitches in this breed had problems that precluded the same number from being bred from "

I was in no way refering to class sizes at shows or the number of males verses the number of females that are kept by breeders. However I would point out that no matter how many times a stud is used or how much influence it is percieved he may have on a breed we should never overlook the fact that 50% of his genetic make up came from his dam (every stud dog had to have a mother).

I'm a little disapointed that no one else who has perused this topic the in last twenty-four hours could see any benefit it an attempt to find genetic markers for breed problems.

So once again I will ask a question - If your whippet was tested and found to carry the gene/genes that produce the problem of undescended testicles, cleft-palates or heart disease (w00t) would you voluntarily withdraw it from breeding ??????????????

 

[Seraphina]

F

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I was in no way refering to class sizes at shows or the number of males verses the number of females that are kept by breeders.

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i know sorry, i got bit confused. Somebody else mentioned that there is less dogs than bitches and asked if this was maybe because the dogs were sold as pets because they did not have their testicles.

Lida

 

[Seraphina]

I offer the following thought - :unsure: would we accept it if bitches in this breed had problems that precluded the same number of them from being bred from?

J

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I was also expecting others to jump on this subject, but it is stil only morning in Europe!

I was also waiting to see what others will say.

I certainly would not breed from a bitch if I knew that she has a serious problem which she is going to pass on to her pups. However, the fact is most of inherited disorders are not as obvious as the testicles. Of-course, it would be great if we could test to make sure we breed healthy animals, but it is not so simple. Every individual, human or animal has some inherited recessive defect, some are worse than other, all need at least one other copy of the "bad" gene to affect the individual. Others are caused by several genes. Problems therefore occur only rarely in populations with broad genetic base, but become dangerous in populations with little or no diversity.

Lida

 

[JAX]

I'm a little disapointed that no one else who has perused this topic the in last twenty-four hours could see any benefit it an attempt to find genetic markers for breed problems.
So once again I will ask a question - If your whippet was tested and found to carry the gene/genes that produce the problem of undescended testicles, cleft-palates or heart disease  (w00t) would you voluntarily withdraw it from breeding ??????????????

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Im sure no one in their right mind would want to bred any animal that could possibly have any life threatening problems . I always thought the aim of breeding was to IMPROVE stock ,not to be part of unhealthy stock production .

Its only the last few years that I have heard about heart disease and cleft palates in Whippets , perhaps I have been lucky . The first puppy I bought off Anne Knight ( Dondelayo) had only 1 testicle so I took him back A very hard decision for me as I had really grown to love him , but as I had 4 Racing Greyhounds at the time I was desparate to have something to show. )That little dog was placed in a pet home ) ,and I had Simon , Director of Dondelayo in his place .

I think our problem stems from many years ago when having 2 fully desended testicles didnt have the importance that it does now . As for the other problems , fortunately :luck: :luck: Ive never come across them , so cant comment .

But should I ever have the unfortunate task of having either , then no , I definatly wouldnt even THINK about breeding on from inflicked stock o

 

[Cartman]

What about the "fawn' gene?? (w00t)

hehehehehehe.......... :wub:

 

[JAX]

Maybe we should try to eradicate the `blonde `gene in humans , while we are at it .

BTW , that was JUST for Cartman :- " before any of you other blondes take offence

 

[Ridgesetter]

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I'm a little disapointed that no one else who has perused this topic the in last twenty-four hours could see any benefit it an attempt to find genetic markers for breed problems.

So once again I will ask a question - If your whippet was tested and found to carry the gene/genes that produce the problem of undescended testicles, cleft-palates or heart disease (w00t) would you voluntarily withdraw it from breeding ??????????????

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I think the lack of response is could be due to the fact that if a breeder hasn't experienced a problem, they may not really know what they would do. :unsure: Theory is great but reality is a different situation.

Secondly, who is going to classify what is a problem and what isn't? I'm sure we all agree that cryptorchidism isn't life threatening so are we blowing it out of proportion? :unsure: The decision whether to breed from stock affected from a disease is, at this point in time, the decision of the individual. Your answer is already there as obviously breeders have bred with dogs that carry and/or pass on problems otherwise we wouldn't be discussing them now.

 

[Seraphina]

Dealing with inherited defects and disorders is a very difficult if not impossible if we do not know the extent of each problem in our dog population. I did say I would not breed from a bitch carrying a gene for a serious illness. However, lets take the cleft palate and spina bifida. Out those 200 pups I have whelped only one had a cleft palate, one spina bifida, one club foot and there were some kinky tails = these are defects clearly apparent at birth (I will leave the testis out of it for a while). Would I remove from my breeding program a bitch because one of her pups had cleft palate? Well, no. Not unless on further investigation I would discover that there were a lot of cleft palates in that line.

But it seems to me that cleft palate and spina bifida are just one of those things which now and then pop up. The two affected pups came from lines I knew well; there were no problems in the past and as far as I know no further cases in next generations.

Both of these defects may be caused by a mutation with contribution by some environmental factors. Some herbicides are well known to cause both of these birth defects in humans.

If it were caused by straightforward recessive inheritance, there would likely see more than one puppy here and there.

In any case it would most valuable for us to have some idea of prevalence of each defect in our breed, and to be able to compare with other breeds. Unless the occurrence of these cases is steadily rising I do not think we should worry about them. The problem is WE DO NOT KNOW what is going on.

As far as the testis go, people may not realize that their new puppy comes from a litter with problems. It is only when they breed themself and the boys have testis missing they start asking questions and the experienced breeders tell them it is perfectly normal.

The question I would like to ask is ; Did this situation changed in whippets over the past lets say 30 years? Are the testis coming down later, are they smaller, is there more incidents of them going up and down?

 

[Seraphina]

I offer the following thought - :unsure: would we accept it if bitches in this breed had problems that precluded the same number of them from being bred from?

J

I was in no way refering to class sizes at shows or the number of males verses the number of females that are kept by breeders. However I would point out that no matter how many times a stud is used or how much influence it is percieved he may have on a breed we should never overlook the fact that 50% of his genetic make up came from his dam (every stud dog had to have a mother).

v

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Of-course, you are right, every dog has a mother and half of her genes. And if the famous stud dog inherited the faulty gene from his mother you can “blame” her for this problem to become widespread in the breed.

BUT

Hypothetically speaking; lets take 2 unrelated Whippets, dog and a bitch, both top winning dogs. Before starting to breed you have them genetically tested and discover they both carry a gene for the same genetic disorder. If you withdraw the bitch from your breeding program you prevent, realistically speaking, the birth of 3-20 potential carriers. Estimating she may have 1-4 litters and approximately half the pups would be carriers.

If you withdraw the dog, for which you have whole queue of people eager to breed their bitches to, you prevent the birth of enormous number of potential carriers.

Basically, for a bitch to have a significant influence on the breed she has to be not only successful herself, she also needs to have a successful son. And even then, as the son has only half of her genes, his progeny is only getting small proportion of her genes.

The dog only needs to be able to mate a large number of bitches to have a long lasting influence on the breed.

 

[dawn]

If it was discovered that they both carry a gene for the same genetic disorder, We personally would withdraw both of them from the breeding program immediatley therefore putting a stop altogether from it being passed on to any offspring they may have produced.

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

Would I remove from my breeding program a bitch because one of her pups had cleft palate?  Well, no.  Not unless on further investigation I would discover that there were a lot of cleft palates in that line.But it seems to me that cleft palate and spina bifida are just one of those things which now and then pop up.  The two affected pups came from lines I knew well; there were no problems in the past and as far as I know no further cases in next generations. 

Both of these defects may be caused by a mutation with contribution by some environmental factors.

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This is the difficult bit for any breeder!

- Puppies can have a normal genotype and a normal phenotype (ie their genes are ok and they are externally ok).

- They could have an abnormal genotype and a normal phenotype (an example of this would be an animal which is carrying genes for a defect but has no defect itself).

- They could have an normal genotype and an abnormal phenotype (ie their genes are ok but for some other reason, eg environmental toxins their body is abnormal).

- They could have an abnormal genotype and an abnormal phenotype (these are the ones which not only carry a gene for a defect but also express that gene and so actually have a defect themselves).

The problem for any breeder is determining whether that puppy with the cleft palate has a normal genotype (in which case it's not necessary to remove its relatives from the gene pool) or whether it has an abnormal genotype and so has relatives carrying genes coding for defects. This is where real progress would be made in selection for breeding.

Having said that, genes are placed at set loci within chromosomes, and as has been mentioned before, breeding one gene out can also breed out other genes linked with it and so lead to other problems. It is this selection for particular phenotypes in breeding which has led us into trouble in so many breeds - Cavalier King Charles Spaniels have long, soft hair and a squashed face, but they also frequently have dodgy hearts. Is this the result of breeding without adequate knowledge of genetics? I think that must surely be the case.

Anyone who is inbreeding (and looking at the big picture, any pedigree dog is inbred, because they are persistently bred to their own type, in order to express the same phenotype, and never benefit from the hybrid vigour brought by new blood) needs to think carefully about the strains they are placing on nature's programming. All breeding of pedigree dogs is doing is placing artificial limitations on the gene pool - these days survival of the fittest is less applicable because we can salvage a lot of these abnormal dogs by medical means, but without natural selection to remove these problems for us we must accept that the incidence of abnormalities will be considerable.

 

[Seraphina]

If it was discovered that they both carry a gene for the same genetic disorder, We personally would withdraw both of them from the breeding program immediatley therefore putting a stop altogether from it being passed on to any offspring they may have produced.

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Yes, I would too, but that was not the point I was making. I was commenting on a statement of somebody who said that a male and female dogs make an equal contributions to traits in a breed. I was trying to point out that a dog with an undetected problem can cause a considerably more harm than a bitch. I WAS NOT ADVOCATING TO KEEP BREEDING FROM A BITCH WITH A KNOWN PROBLEM just because her impact would not be as severe as in the case of widely used male!!!!!!

Lida

 

[Alba]

I wouldn't breed a monorchid or a dog whose testicles descended late, and would try to avoid dogs who proved to have a higher than average no. of pups with this problem or who had a number of siblings with the same problem

I saw someone on this thread described it as a luxury problem. Well, it isn't because the dog may need surgery, more complicated than normal neutering

although I wouldn't breed him, I would like to avoid that surgery with my pup.

the right testicle came down later than 3 months, now I can feel the left testicle but it is far from where it should be. How long should I wait before getting him altered?

 

[Lolcoe]

Ooooohhhh, forgot to let everyone know when they dropped, i cant remember exactly when but it was a few weeks ago, just after getting Diamond.

He's been a pain ever since, i think it has had a big effect on him. Not gonna breed from him but they are gonna remain as a momentum of those winter evenings on the sofa teasing them down as advised ( or was that a big joke (w00t) ?) :x :x :x

 

[Alba]

I wouldn't breed a monorchid or a dog whose testicles descended late, and would try to avoid dogs who proved to have a higher than average no. of pups with this problem or who had a number of siblings with the same problem
I saw someone on this thread described it as a luxury problem. Well, it isn't because the dog may need surgery, more complicated than normal neutering

although I wouldn't breed him, I would like to avoid that surgery with my pup.

the right testicle came down later than 3 months, now I can feel the left testicle but it is far from where it should be. How long should I wait before getting him altered?

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any replies to my question?

also are undescended testicles always risky for a dog (increased chance of injury - torsion, etc, increased risk of cancer), or are only the ones high up in the abdomen dangerous to leave in place?

 

[Millie]

I wouldn't breed a monorchid or a dog whose testicles descended late, and would try to avoid dogs who proved to have a higher than average no. of pups with this problem or who had a number of siblings with the same problem
I saw someone on this thread described it as a luxury problem. Well, it isn't because the dog may need surgery, more complicated than normal neutering

although I wouldn't breed him, I would like to avoid that surgery with my pup.

the right testicle came down later than 3 months, now I can feel the left testicle but it is far from where it should be. How long should I wait before getting him altered?

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any replies to my question?

also are undescended testicles always risky for a dog (increased chance of injury - torsion, etc, increased risk of cancer), or are only the ones high up in the abdomen dangerous to leave in place?

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How old is he now Alba ?

Only ask because i would leave well alone until at least 18 mths even as late as two years.

 

[Alba]

How old is he now Alba ?
Only ask because i would leave well alone until at least 18 mths even as late as two years.

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no, not that old, but now over 6 months which is when the vets generally recommend neutering

are you saying wait 18-24 months because he still might drop his other testicle or because you think he's unlikely to have health problems before then and/or because you think a dog should fully mature before being neutered [tho' it is possible to operate early on the undescended testicle and leave the other intact if the hormones are important for development. I won't breed him, even though he's nice enough otherwise.]

Dawn wrote: "I know of a dog that had one tesicle up to being two and a half, he was sold as a pet and them at two and half the other one dropped. I am sure this scenario is very rare."

how visible was that dogs other testicle before it dropped? People are saying the inguinal ring closes about 6 months old. At the same time I have heard a few tales of dogs whose testicles weren't fully descended until between 10 months and 2 years and I wonder how that was possible unless the testes were very near the scrotum and doing the yo-yo movement for months? I don't know the details because people ar just saying, "my dog's testicles didn't drop until he was 11 months old", without filling in the details.

 

[Millie]

are you saying wait 18-24 months because he still might drop his other testicle ?

Yes thats what I am saying. There is no rush to get him castrated for medical reasons either.

 

[Alba]

I recently came across the following (about humans) in a mdical Q&A page of "Full House" magazine

q - My son's testicle hasn't dropped. He's 11 . Is this a problem and what can be done about it?

a- This problem does need to be addressed as an undescended testicle can increase the risk of testicular cancer. Your son needs an operation to pull the testicle down and secure it in the scrotum, which is done under general anaesthetic. Sometimes the cord is too short to do this, so the testicle is removed but your son will be perfectly healthy with just one.

--- I was very surprised this matter was still unresolved with an 11 year old. In other articles about human health, I have read a) that if both testicles are not descended by age two there may be fertility problems in adulthood (suggesting surgery should be done at an early age or testicles may not develop properly) b) if testicles are not descended by age 7 there is an increased risk of testicular cancer (suggesting that there is a risk even if the testicle eventually descends naturally or is surgically moved at a later age?). None of this information comes from very authorative medical sources - though the one about fertility did come from an infertility help clinic leaflet. And I don't know how applicable this info is to canines.