Question For Judges/breeders/exhibitors

[nina]

Join our free community today.

Connect with other like-minded dog lovers!

Login or Register

Out of interest i would like to know what the views & opinions are of breeders/judges/exhibitors on the subject of the "split tooth", also sometimes referred to as "fused tooth" or "double tooth".

This has been in whippets for as long as i can remember & i actually had a dog with a split tooth many many years ago.

To my knowledge i never felt they were penalised for it in the showring & certainly no judge ever mentioned or commented on it.

The standard calls for: "jaws strong with a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. upper teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set square to the jaws".

A split tooth does not detract from this.

My question is does anyone consider this to be a fault & if so why?

I know several people over the years & quite recently have remarked to me that they have felt their dog had been "knocked" because of this & i just wondered how true this may be or if it is perhaps just the owners being a little fraught over a certain thing & perhaps the dog was not placed for any number of other reasons.

I have my own views & opinions on this & how it would or would not affect my judging/showing a dog but i would just be interested to know anyone else's views & comments

 

[05whippet]

Well I shall start this one as no-one seems too keen...even though you've had quite a few views so far?

I have always known this as a fused tooth but recently whilst having a conversation regarding something entirely different with a very well known long time breeder & exhibitor of hounds we got onto the topic of faults & she brought the subject of the fused tooth up though actually called it a "Hounds Tooth" her & my opinion of this were that NO it's not a fault and should not be judged as one...it does not detract from what the dog was originally bred to do,has no bearing whatsoever on the dogs jaw and nor is there any mention of it being classed as a fault in any breed standard.

Again both of our opinions were that if a judge penalises a dog for this then that judge is just showing his or her lack of knowledge.

I will be very interested to hear other people's opinions on this as I know for a fact that there are quite a few dogs out there in the showring being shown who have this.

 

[nina]

Well I shall start this one as no-one seems too keen...even though you've had quite a few views so far?

I have always known this as a fused tooth but recently whilst having a conversation regarding something entirely different with a very well known long time breeder & exhibitor of hounds we got onto the topic of faults & she brought the subject of the fused tooth up though actually called it a "Hounds Tooth" her & my opinion of this were that NO it's not a fault and should not be judged as one...it does not detract from what the dog was originally bred to do,has no bearing whatsoever on the dogs jaw and nor is there any mention of it being classed as a fault in any breed standard.

Again both of our opinions were that if a judge penalises a dog for this then that judge is just showing his or her lack of knowledge.

I will be very interested to hear other people's opinions on this as I know for a fact that there are quite a few dogs out there in the showring being shown who have this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Thanks for your views & opinions on this, much appreciated & interesting perspective :thumbsup:

 

Its just a question out of genuine interest but i was beginning to think i was the only person who had ever seen it :- "

 

[05whippet]

Well I shall start this one as no-one seems too keen...even though you've had quite a few views so far?

I have always known this as a fused tooth but recently whilst having a conversation regarding something entirely different with a very well known long time breeder & exhibitor of hounds we got onto the topic of faults & she brought the subject of the fused tooth up though actually called it a "Hounds Tooth" her & my opinion of this were that NO it's not a fault and should not be judged as one...it does not detract from what the dog was originally bred to do,has no bearing whatsoever on the dogs jaw and nor is there any mention of it being classed as a fault in any breed standard.

Again both of our opinions were that if a judge penalises a dog for this then that judge is just showing his or her lack of knowledge.

I will be very interested to hear other people's opinions on this as I know for a fact that there are quite a few dogs out there in the showring being shown who have this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Thanks for your views & opinions on this, much appreciated & interesting perspective :thumbsup:

Its just a question out of genuine interest but i was beginning to think i was the only person who had ever seen it :- "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

No...I would say that there have been many,many people who have come across this especially those who have been in the breed for X amount of years,but whether they choose to discuss it or not is a different matter,it is quite sad really but it seems to be recently that any topic concerning any form of health or conformation issue within the breed starts an argument!!

 

[nina]

No...I would say that there have been many,many people who have come across this especially those who have been in the breed for X amount of years,but whether they choose to discuss it or not is a different matter,it is quite sad really but it seems to be recently that any topic concerning any form of health or conformation issue within the breed starts an argument!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I hope not

It was only a question more out of curiousity really :sweating:

 

[UKUSA]

Yes over the years Ive heard about this fault and it is a fault., hound tooth or not! The standard ,as has been said calls for a scissor bite and makes no mention of fused or hounds tooth. It is my understanding that it is an hereditary fault so something that should not be over looked.

At the end of the standard we are told to judge by the degree of the fault. So if I had two dogs of equal merit and one had a fused tooth the dog with the perfect dentition would get the nod.

Personally I would not breed from a dog or bitch with such a mouth.

Nicky

 

[nina]

Yes over the years Ive heard about this fault and it is a fault., hound tooth or not! The standard ,as has been said calls for a scissor bite and makes no mention of fused or hounds tooth. It is my understanding that it is an hereditary fault so something that should not be over looked.At the end of the standard we are told to judge by the degree of the fault. So if I had two dogs of equal merit and one had a fused tooth the dog with the perfect dentition would get the nod.

Personally I would not breed from a dog or bitch with such a mouth.

Nicky

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Interesting reply thank you.

As you say the standard calls for a scissor bite & if the animal still has a scissor bite & the standard does not mention a fused tooth in the list of faults its interesting that some views are that this is a fault & others beleive it not to be.

Fascinating hearing different views on this )

 

[patsy]

Yes over the years Ive heard about this fault and it is a fault., hound tooth or not! The standard ,as has been said calls for a scissor bite and makes no mention of fused or hounds tooth. It is my understanding that it is an hereditary fault so something that should not be over looked.At the end of the standard we are told to judge by the degree of the fault. So if I had two dogs of equal merit and one had a fused tooth the dog with the perfect dentition would get the nod.

Personally I would not breed from a dog or bitch with such a mouth.

Nicky

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I would not unduly penalise for this one fault if the animal was far better in every respect from the rest of the class. It is a dentition fault and can not be dismissed.

I had a lovely little bitch by Ch. Baydale Cinnamon Ex Ch Lowglen Holly Go Lightly with a double tooth in front, I did show her she was second in her class, and yes the judge did notice her mouth and told me that is why she was second, I found her a lovely pet home, being told at the time it was hereditary so thought it best not to breed from the lovely Kissy either.

 

[nina]

I would not unduly penalise for this one fault if the animal was far better in every respect from the rest of the class. It is a dentition fault and can not be dismissed.I had a lovely little bitch by Ch. Baydale Cinnamon Ex Ch Lowglen Holly Go Lightly with a double tooth in front, I did show her she was second in her class, and yes the judge did notice her mouth and told me that is why she was second, I found her a lovely pet home, being told at the time it was hereditary so thought it best not to breed from the lovely Kissy either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Again another interesting & thought provoking reply, thank you :thumbsup:

Its also an interesting fact that some judges do seem to pick up on it straight away, some just dismiss it & some maybe dont even notice it or maybe are not aware of what it is?

And some obviously just judge it as they would consider any other fault & to the same degree.

Great to get different views. )

 

[fable]

Does anyone have a photo/drawing of what this looks like, as I've not seen one - is it two teeth that have joined together ?

Val

 

[alfyn]

When you say a fused tooth,do you mean the premolars,known as a double premolar?

If so,this occured occasionally in the gsd when i was showing them,& more than likely still does.

As you probably know,teeth faults in the gsd is a big no no,but i can't recall this being heavily penalised.However,it was known for some people to have the offending extra peice of tooth taken off below the gum line,so no-one would be any the wiser :blink:

Imho,i wouldn't consider it a fault in the whippet as there's no mention of it in the breed standard,& it certainly wouldn't affect a whippets ability to catch a rabbit or three!

 

[nina]

Does anyone have a photo/drawing of what this looks like, as I've not seen one - is it two teeth that have joined together ?
Val

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Its normally within the top 6 little inscisors & generally looks like a tooth that is slighter larger with a line down the middle so like a double tooth sort of. Well thats what i can remember from so many years ago now :sweating: & as the dog is now deceased i can only go from memory of what it was like but have seen others recently that looked pretty much the same.

 

[nina]

When you say a fused tooth,do you mean the premolars,known as a double premolar?If so,this occured occasionally in the gsd when i was showing them,& more than likely still does.

As you probably know,teeth faults in the gsd is a big no no,but i can't recall this being heavily penalised.However,it was known for some people to have the offending extra peice of tooth taken off below the gum line,so no-one would be any the wiser :blink:

Imho,i wouldn't consider it a fault in the whippet as there's no mention of it in the breed standard,& it certainly wouldn't affect a whippets ability to catch a rabbit or three!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

No Debs, i have only ever seen it in the top 6 little inscisors.

 

[UKUSA]

The standard makes no mention of fused toes but its not something you would want. In a breed such as ours that is strong numerically in England a judge can afford him or herself the luxury of choice. All dogs have faults, the great ones carry them better than the others, so bearing that in mind Id rather take a dog in the ring with a fault that I could work with shall we say, than fused teeth or toes!!!!!!!!!

Nicky

 

[05whippet]

It is also known as Gemination and is hereditary and fairly common especially within line-bred dogs.

Gemination is defined as an incomplete development of two teeth from

one enamel organ. This results in a structure with two completely or incompletely separated

crowns with a single root and root canal. Occasionally we see complete cleavage or

twinning. Gemination is seen in the deciduous as well as in the permanent dentition (Regizi

and Sciubba 1993). Fusion is the joining of two tooth germs, resulting in a single large

tooth. Fusion may involve the entire length of the tooth, or only the roots, depending on the

stage of development of the tooth at the time of the union. The root canal can be shared or

separated. The aetiology of gemination and fusion is unknown, but trauma has been

suggested as a possible cause. Fusion is seen in the deciduous as well as in the permanent

dentition (Ravn 1971). It may be difficult or even impossible to differentiate fusion of

a normal tooth and an adjacent supernumerary tooth from gemination (Verstraete 1999).

 

[nina]

I guess that is may be the answer, that it is the judges opinion on the day as to how serious or indeed even if it is what they consider to be a fault or not.

But its good to see how peoples views differ on this subject & good that everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

 

[patsy]

When you say a fused tooth,do you mean the premolars,known as a double premolar?If so,this occured occasionally in the gsd when i was showing them,& more than likely still does.

As you probably know,teeth faults in the gsd is a big no no,but i can't recall this being heavily penalised.However,it was known for some people to have the offending extra peice of tooth taken off below the gum line,so no-one would be any the wiser :blink:

Imho,i wouldn't consider it a fault in the whippet as there's no mention of it in the breed standard,& it certainly wouldn't affect a whippets ability to catch a rabbit or three!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

It would not make .any difference to a whippet catching a rabbit. No faults are mentioned in breed standards, but in a perfect bite the dentition should be regular with no fused teeth, I think you would just judge it to the degree of the fault, and no judge worth their salt would knock a dog for this alone.

 

[05whippet]

When you say a fused tooth,do you mean the premolars,known as a double premolar?If so,this occured occasionally in the gsd when i was showing them,& more than likely still does.

As you probably know,teeth faults in the gsd is a big no no,but i can't recall this being heavily penalised.However,it was known for some people to have the offending extra peice of tooth taken off below the gum line,so no-one would be any the wiser :blink:

Imho,i wouldn't consider it a fault in the whippet as there's no mention of it in the breed standard,& it certainly wouldn't affect a whippets ability to catch a rabbit or three!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

It would not make .any difference to a whippet catching a rabbit. No faults are mentioned in breed standards, but in a perfect bite the dentition should be regular with no fused teeth, I think you would just judge it to the degree of the fault, and no judge worth their salt would knock a dog for this alone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

 

 

I am very happy to hear this from a judge. :thumbsup:

 

[UKUSA]

As we ve said it is hereditary so ofcourse you should not breed on from an individual that has this fault . It will only be in line bred dogs that have got it that the fault will keep re occuring but if your line bred dog has never had this fault it is not going to suddenly fall out of the sky and in to his mouth!

Nicky

 

[05whippet]

As  we ve said it is hereditary so ofcourse you should not breed on from an individual that has this fault . It will only be in line bred dogs that have got it that the fault will keep re occuring but if your line bred dog has never had this fault it is not going to suddenly fall out of the sky and in to his mouth!Nicky

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

So then my question would be...if you had a super example of the breed in every aspect except that it had a fused tooth would you feel that it would be worth trying to breed it out by out-crossing? Of course then you would really need to know fully the background of the dog that you would be breeding to so that you were'nt inadvertently doubling up on the fused tooth issue & as we all know breeders are not too keen (well in the UK certainly) to discuss faults or "issues" within their lines as they feel it is a personal slate on them & their dogs.I am only curious here as to when does someone stop trying to correct a fault by breeding it out??

And also digressing slightly but...there are lines out there that have cleft palates in them,which in my mind are far more important an issue that a fused tooth but yet these lines are still bred from and in some cases line bred from!