Question For Judges/breeders/exhibitors

[doris]

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So then my question would be...if you had a super example of the breed in every aspect except that it had a fused tooth would you feel that it would be worth trying to breed it out by out-crossing?

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I was going to ask a similar question, but was struggling with how to word it - thanks :thumbsup:

 

[patsy]

As  we ve said it is hereditary so ofcourse you should not breed on from an individual that has this fault . It will only be in line bred dogs that have got it that the fault will keep re occuring but if your line bred dog has never had this fault it is not going to suddenly fall out of the sky and in to his mouth!Nicky

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So then my question would be...if you had a super example of the breed in every aspect except that it had a fused tooth would you feel that it would be worth trying to breed it out by out-crossing? Of course then you would really need to know fully the background of the dog that you would be breeding to so that you were'nt inadvertently doubling up on the fused tooth issue & as we all know breeders are not too keen (well in the UK certainly) to discuss faults or "issues" within their lines as they feel it is a personal slate on them & their dogs.I am only curious here as to when does someone stop trying to correct a fault by breeding it out??

And also digressing slightly but...there are lines out there that have cleft palates in them,which in my mind are far more important an issue that a fused tooth but yet these lines are still bred from and in some cases line bred from!

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Yes of course cleft palates are far worse than a fused tooth, on the tooth issue you could say it is being picky, when all the time we are all looking for perfection to our interpretation of the standard. Years ago when you had a litter and maybe a cleft palate you told people and there were no witch hunts, things were talked through with each other, as it should be, there are breeders around who are prepared to talk. Many years ago a bitch was mated to Special Brew and nearly all her puppies had cleft palates, through the line breeding her owner and I could trace it to a certain dog, she had the bitch spayed and I never allowed any more daughters of this dog to be mated to Special Brew. Caring breeders would certainly not line breed to animals that have produced this fault.We are custodians of the breed for such a short time so it is up to us to do our best for them.

 

[seaspot_run]

I have only had it once--except that I would call it a double-crowned split incisor. If it is fused there would be one tooth missing, right?

This bitch was about as outcrossed as you can get and still call it a Whippet.

Some judges think anything weird or unusual is good enough reason to put a dog back in the pile, but for me, as her bite was still scissors and she had the right number of teeth in the front of her mouth, it should be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down the list of things that a judge should care about. The standard only calls for the bite to be scissors. What if the dog is missing a tooth due to breakage? As long as you can still see scissors bite, I think it's no big deal in the Whippet. We aren't required to have complete dentition--just a scissors bite that looks strong enough to hold a rabbit.

My bitch has one extra pointy tip in front so the way I see it, her bite is even more punishing than a normal one.

 

[fable]

:thumbsup: Thanks Nina and Pamela for explaining what it is :thumbsup:

Val

 

[nina]

I have only had it once--except that I would call it a double-crowned split incisor. If it is fused there would be one tooth missing, right? 
This bitch was about as outcrossed as you can get and still call it a Whippet. 

Some judges think anything weird or unusual is good enough reason to put a dog back in the pile, but for me, as her bite was still scissors and she had the right number of teeth in the front of her mouth, it should be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down the list of things that a judge should care about.  The standard only calls for the bite to be scissors.  What if the dog is missing a tooth due to breakage?  As long as you can still see  scissors bite, I think it's no big deal in the Whippet. We aren't required to have complete dentition--just a scissors bite that looks strong enough to hold a rabbit.

My bitch has one extra pointy tip in front so the way I see it, her bite is even more punishing than a normal one.

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Hi Karen, some interesting points, enjoyed reading this. :thumbsup:

I also feel that on the grand scale of things when you think that as a show dog this will never affect the dog having the correct scissor bite that the standard calls for or affect its general conformation in any way or its movement or will it ever affect its functionability to run or race or hunt & catch prey it is to me merely a cosmetic image that differs from the norm. The standard states a correct scissor bite but not that every tooth should be of the same size :lol:

As far as cosmetic faults go i would rather see a larger tooth than say for example "flying ears" which again are never going to affect the dog in any way other than cosmetically but to me are far less appealing than a slightly larger tooth that can not be seen without going into the animals mouth.

 

[05whippet]

I have only had it once--except that I would call it a double-crowned split incisor. If it is fused there would be one tooth missing, right? 
This bitch was about as outcrossed as you can get and still call it a Whippet. 

Some judges think anything weird or unusual is good enough reason to put a dog back in the pile, but for me, as her bite was still scissors and she had the right number of teeth in the front of her mouth, it should be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down the list of things that a judge should care about.  The standard only calls for the bite to be scissors.  What if the dog is missing a tooth due to breakage?  As long as you can still see  scissors bite, I think it's no big deal in the Whippet. We aren't required to have complete dentition--just a scissors bite that looks strong enough to hold a rabbit.

My bitch has one extra pointy tip in front so the way I see it, her bite is even more punishing than a normal one.

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Hi Karen, some interesting points, enjoyed reading this. :thumbsup:

I also feel that on the grand scale of things when you think that as a show dog this will never affect the dog having the correct scissor bite that the standard calls for or affect its general conformation in any way or its movement or will it ever affect its functionability to run or race or hunt & catch prey it is to me merely a cosmetic image that differs from the norm. The standard states a correct scissor bite but not that every tooth should be of the same size :lol:

As far as cosmetic faults go i would rather see a larger tooth than say for example "flying ears" which again are never going to affect the dog in any way other than cosmetically but to me are far less appealing than a slightly larger tooth that can not be seen without going into the animals mouth.

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Ah now that raises a seperate issue....do judges class "flying ears" as a fault and penalise accordingly? I am talking about when they are judging in the UK as I know in the US it is classed as a fault & would be penalised but then they "ask" for ears,whereas in the UK they don't so therefore it would be easy to hide erect or flying ears.

 

[UKUSA]

As  we ve said it is hereditary so ofcourse you should not breed on from an individual that has this fault . It will only be in line bred dogs that have got it that the fault will keep re occuring but if your line bred dog has never had this fault it is not going to suddenly fall out of the sky and in to his mouth!Nicky

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So then my question would be...if you had a super example of the breed in every aspect except that it had a fused tooth would you feel that it would be worth trying to breed it out by out-crossing? Of course then you would really need to know fully the background of the dog that you would be breeding to so that you were'nt inadvertently doubling up on the fused tooth issue & as we all know breeders are not too keen (well in the UK certainly) to discuss faults or "issues" within their lines as they feel it is a personal slate on them & their dogs.I am only curious here as to when does someone stop trying to correct a fault by breeding it out??

And also digressing slightly but...there are lines out there that have cleft palates in them,which in my mind are far more important an issue that a fused tooth but yet these lines are still bred from and in some cases line bred from!

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A lot has been going on since I had my dinner! Anyway this is my take on all of this and I emphasize just my take. As much as it would break my heart I would not breed from an otherwise super example of the breed because eventually it would back come to haunt you and a line has to be drawn.Now thats just me! As for ears the standard in the U.K calls for a rose shaped ear it does Not say that they should stand erect signalling to the enemy! I feel that if you start saying "oh well that doesnt really matter it could still catch a rabbit with its fused tooth or its pricked ears or its flat feet or its short tail, well the list could just go on, where does it stop? With that line of thinking there would be no point in having a standard.(and lets not go there again)

As for the cleft palate issue ,well Ill tell you all now, Ive never made it a secret but many years ago I lost half a litter to cleft palates, it was awful and ofcourse a complete shock, the sire of my litter was the sire of the bitch that was mated to Special Brew but it stopped there there is NOTHING at Savuka that has come from this line, In fact one of the surviving pups went on to win a ticket and a reserve but was never bred from.

As for America, I know that in many ways our standards are not so different but having viewed many photos from the recent National and looked at a lot of the champions it would seem to me that a lot of the judges have ignored the standard.Maybe thats because you have more allrounder judges whereas here we have more breeder judges

Nicky

 

[patsy]

I have only had it once--except that I would call it a double-crowned split incisor. If it is fused there would be one tooth missing, right? 
This bitch was about as outcrossed as you can get and still call it a Whippet. 

Some judges think anything weird or unusual is good enough reason to put a dog back in the pile, but for me, as her bite was still scissors and she had the right number of teeth in the front of her mouth, it should be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down the list of things that a judge should care about.  The standard only calls for the bite to be scissors.  What if the dog is missing a tooth due to breakage?  As long as you can still see  scissors bite, I think it's no big deal in the Whippet. We aren't required to have complete dentition--just a scissors bite that looks strong enough to hold a rabbit.

My bitch has one extra pointy tip in front so the way I see it, her bite is even more punishing than a normal one.

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You tell them on the continent under F.C,I that you do not require complete dentition, they even count the teeth, and heaven forbid if there is a P1 missing, most of our judges would not even know where the P1 is in the mouth. I would not penalise a dog who had broken or lost a tooth through an accident.

 

[nina]

Hmmm.this really is quite thought provoking reading. :thumbsup:

So some define certain things that dont alter the construction, movement or functionability of a dog as more of a cosmetic issue where as others will throw up their hands in horror and deem that the dog should never be bred from. Interesting how differently we all think.

Yet every dog has a fault as we all know there is NEVER a perfect dog so where does that leave other issues then like the dog that is born with a floating rib? Doesnt look like the norm BUT wont affect the dog in any way but is this to be considered a fault also?

If you had 2 examples of a whippet, one very correct in every way, outstanding conformation, true movement, correct size etc BUT had a split tooth & another whippet again fairly correct & with excellent dentition BUT was totally out at elbow when coming towards you for example which would you consider to be the bigger fault?

Sometimes i feel that one can lose sight of what is genuinely a fault & what isnt but thats just me personally & im finding this really fascinating just how differently we all see things

 

[patsy]

Hmmm.this really is quite thought provoking reading.  :thumbsup:
So some define certain things that dont alter the construction, movement or functionability of a dog as more of a cosmetic issue where as others will throw up their hands in horror and deem that the dog should never be bred from. Interesting how differently we all think.   

Yet every dog has a fault as we all know there is NEVER a perfect dog so where does that leave other issues then like the dog that is born with a floating rib? Doesnt look like the norm BUT wont affect the dog in any way but is this to be considered a fault also?

If you had 2 examples of a whippet, one very correct in every way, outstanding conformation, true movement, correct size etc BUT had a split tooth & another whippet again fairly correct & with excellent dentition BUT was totally out at elbow when coming towards you for example which would you consider to be the bigger fault? 

Sometimes i feel that one can lose sight of what is genuinely a fault & what isnt but thats just me personally & im finding this really fascinating just how differently we all see things 

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Of course the split tooth would win hands down, any good judge would not have it any other way, when two are of equal merit this might be the deciding factor.

 

[Seraphina]

I think we need to differentiate between FAULTS and DEFORMITIES. Faults = something that does not conform to The Standard is totally artificial concept, while deformity even if harmless to the individual dog is something to be concerned about. Such deformities like split tooth or extra toes may not be serious in themselves but as the cause may be hereditary it should be considered in judging the dog. What is point of a stunning dog if it can cause problems in the breed?

 

[nina]

Ok, a huge thank you to the person that has sent me a photo, you know who you are :huggles:

For those of you who havent seen one here is a good example of a split tooth, its the 2nd small inscisor on the left at the top

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[nina]

Heres another, hope this helps for any one who has not seen a split tooth :thumbsup:

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[Scudder]

If a split tooth is the worst thing I have to worry about I'm doing just fine.

I'll breed a dog with a minor cosmetic fault if its known to be correctable in subsequent generations if the dog is stellar in body, movement or type or has carries few genetic health problems in the line. I can't imagine throwing the baby out with the bathwater for something like high tail carriage or a bad ear or even a split tooth, none of which affects the health and wellbeing of the dog.

Stellar fronts, beautiful movement, strong rears are all hard to come by and much harder to fix than a minor cosmetic fault. I would certainly try to correct the cosmetic fault in the next generation, though and keep animals that were show quality that did not have the fault to breed on from.

Just my $0.02 and its not worth much given the current exchange rate.

Kristen

 

[05whippet]

Hmmm.this really is quite thought provoking reading.  :thumbsup:
So some define certain things that dont alter the construction, movement or functionability of a dog as more of a cosmetic issue where as others will throw up their hands in horror and deem that the dog should never be bred from. Interesting how differently we all think.   

Yet every dog has a fault as we all know there is NEVER a perfect dog so where does that leave other issues then like the dog that is born with a floating rib? Doesnt look like the norm BUT wont affect the dog in any way but is this to be considered a fault also?

If you had 2 examples of a whippet, one very correct in every way, outstanding conformation, true movement, correct size etc BUT had a split tooth & another whippet again fairly correct & with excellent dentition BUT was totally out at elbow when coming towards you for example which would you consider to be the bigger fault? 

Sometimes i feel that one can lose sight of what is genuinely a fault & what isnt but thats just me personally & im finding this really fascinating just how differently we all see things 

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Now this is another one that I would be very interested in knowing others opinions of....a floating rib? Fault? deformity? or what? And should the dog be penalised for having it?

 

[05whippet]

If a split tooth is the worst thing I have to worry about I'm doing just fine. 
I'll breed a dog with a minor cosmetic fault if its known to be correctable in subsequent generations if the dog is stellar in body, movement or type or has carries few genetic health problems in the line. I can't imagine throwing the baby out with the bathwater for something like high tail carriage or a bad ear or even a split tooth, none of which affects the health and wellbeing of the dog.

Stellar fronts, beautiful movement, strong rears are all hard to come by and much harder to fix than a minor cosmetic fault. I would certainly try to correct the cosmetic fault in the next generation, though and keep animals that were show quality that did not have the fault to breed on from.

Just my $0.02 and its not worth much given the current exchange rate.

Kristen

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I have to say that I agree with you Kristen, if the fault is correctable through future generations. And as you quite rightly say movement and conformation faults are extremely difficult to breed out,yet seem mighty easy to breed in!

Fused tooth or atrocious movement?....I know which I'd prefer to have in my lines! (& obviously I'd prefer neither,I'm only making a comparison on importance)

 

[Seraphina]

Flying ears are cosmetic, prick ears are normal in other breeds. Malformation of tooth bud (or anything else) is another matter. OK one tooth like that is not a big deal, but what if you breed from dog like that and few generations down the track there will be pups with 2, 3 and more double teeth? The mouth in one of the pics above is very uneven already, what will it look like with more double teeth?

 

[Seraphina]

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Now this is another one that I would be very interested in knowing others opinions of....a floating rib? Fault? deformity? or what? And should the dog be penalised for having it?

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Floating ribs are the last ribs, they are perfectly normal

 

[05whippet]

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Now this is another one that I would be very interested in knowing others opinions of....a floating rib? Fault? deformity? or what? And should the dog be penalised for having it?

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Floating ribs are the last ribs, they are perfectly normal

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Yes,but I was led to believe that a floating rib was where the last rib stuck out a little from the rest of the ribcage ie:not lying flat to the body but protruding slightly...am I making any sense?

 

[nina]

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Now this is another one that I would be very interested in knowing others opinions of....a floating rib? Fault? deformity? or what? And should the dog be penalised for having it?

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Floating ribs are the last ribs, they are perfectly normal

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Yes they are the last ribs BUT they do not protrude/float in ALL whippets so is this acceptable that they do in some yet not in others, is it acceptable to see them jutting out in a point when they are a floating rib?

Just a question but what about kinks in tail ends? Now in some breeds this is rife & i know considered a MAJOR fault but what if you bred a pup & it was perfect in every way yet had a slight kink at the end of its tail? Would you say this was a hereditary fault OR down to the fact the pups were packed tightly inside the bitch & one was squashed up with little room & may have caused this kink?

Which is worse in your eyes a kinked tail, a split tooth, a floating rib??? None will ever affect the well being of the dog :wacko: