Question For Judges/breeders/exhibitors

[Seraphina]

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Glad of that as i know obviously in different places terminology means totally different things  :thumbsup:

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I still cannot find anywhere any mention of the floating rib being a problem. I recall only very vaguely when i first spotted it. I was only a little girl and was with my grandfather looking at skinny Dane pup, about 7 months old. I noticed the rib being quite prominent and asked my grandfather if it was broken, he told me that it was just the last rib, which is not attached to the sternum, which is perfectly normal and is just more noticeable in some dogs than others, especially if they are skinny.

You seem to be talking about something more pronounced, which is a definite problem. Hope we can get somebody to post a photo. I am now intrigued as I have been now googling everything I could think off and all what I am getting is that floating rib is perfectly NORMAL.

 

[nina]

Someone has kindly mailed me a piccy of a floating rib THANK YOU so much.

Whilst its not the greatest photo & certainly not nearly as pronounced as my IGs was, it will atleast give some people an idea of what i mean when i say "floating rib" BUT bear in mind it can be a lot worse than this piccy & especially in a male that is hard to get weight on My Igs stuck out twice the size of this & looked horrid, you could cut your finger on it (w00t)

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[Seraphina]

This is what the ribcage looks like. On skinny dogs the spot where the top half of the rib joins to the lower half is easily seen, as there is a little bit of a bump. Some dogs have these bumps more pronounced than others. I am pretty sure that is what you are seeing. I wish somebody more qualified or at least somebody who has given this more thought to comment...

Where is Eceni when we need her????

 

[Mychaka]

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Hi Cristina

This is very interesting. May i ask how did the fused tooth you were shown by the owner differ from the photo i have managed to put on? How was it different?

What was the owners explanation if you are able to relay it?

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Nina,

The owner while showing me the mouth of the dog said that it was the result of a baby tooth not falling out and the adult tooth coming through joining onto it. They said if they had notice the problem earlier on they would of pulled the baby tooth (no mention of it being a fused tooth). The only different in the photo to the whippet I saw was that it was the two middle upper teeth.

From what I saw if one didn't expose the teeth up to the gum line it could be missed when being judged, or just see that the dog had the correct bite. I mean I've had some judges just run their finger along the front to check bite not really taking much interest in the mouth so I gather it will depend on the judges attention to detail and preference at the end of the day if a dog goes up or down.

I have seen a fused tooth in other breeds but as I said this was the first time in a Whippet.

Cristina

 

[patsy]

This is what the ribcage looks like.  On skinny dogs the spot where the top half of the rib joins to the lower half is easily seen, as there is a little bit of a bump.  Some dogs have these  bumps more pronounced than others.  I am pretty sure that is what you are seeing.  I wish somebody more qualified or at least somebody who has given this more thought to comment...
Where is Eceni when we need her????

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Protruding ribs are seen from time to time, my Dumbriton Looking for Love, the dam of Ch Marchpast La Diva has one, now that she is a fat little old lady it is not as noticeable. The vet can operate and remove the end of the rib of course these days you would have to report it to the KC, have known dogs in the past that have had it done.

The mouth in the photo to me is not acceptable, not the split tooth but the rest of it. The other two breeds that I have been involved with Bull Terriers and Staffordshire Bull Terriers, In Bull Terriers a top flight dog would always get away with a mouth fault, so mouths in this breed have always been a problem. In the Stafford quite the opposite a bad mouth would not win top honors. You have to be so careful accepting a mouth that is not right, things will then start going from bad to worse. Just my thoughts.

 

[nina]

Yes Seraphina this is exactly what we are seeing, we know that :thumbsup:

It is the last rib & on some dogs it protrudes almost as if the last rb is placed on back to front if you like & curves outwards at the tip away from the body instead of inwards.

Also I used the photo of the mouth just to indicate the split tooth.

 

[beaker]

a gentleman at ringcraft brought his whippet puppy (not my breeding btw ) over to show me a couple of years ago and asked my opinion on his puppy bitches double tooth, it was a lot larger than the other teeth, had a groove down the centre and a what looked like a chip out in the centre of the bottom edge, i saw her again about 6 months later and her baby tooth had been replaced by a perfectly normal adult tooth.

now whats everyone opinion about a dog that had a double baby tooth as a puppy but when it dropped out was replaced by a totally normal adult tooth, how risky would it be concidered to breed from this dog?

 

[zilloot]

I had a whippet with a 'floating rib' on one side. It was about as prominent as the one in the photograph above. Sadly she has passed away so I don't have a photograph.

No one ever mentioned it to me while she was being shown and she did very well in the ring. None of her litter-mates had it and she didn't pass it on to her pups.

Never seen a split tooth before but it does look like a minor problem compared to some 'structural' faults you see around.

 

[Seraphina]

The owner while showing me the mouth of the dog said that it was the result of a baby tooth not falling out and the adult tooth coming through joining onto it. They said if they had notice the problem earlier on they would of pulled the baby tooth (no mention of it being a fused tooth). The only different in the photo to the whippet I saw was that it was the two middle upper teeth.From what I saw if one didn't expose the teeth up to the gum line it could be missed when being judged, or just see that the dog had the correct bite.

Cristina

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Sorry Christina but I do not think that is possible. The second teeth are formed long time before they come out. Some breeds, like poodles and chihuahuas have lots pf problems with loosing their baby teeth. I have seen 5 - 6 months olds with both and the baby teeth had to be extracted in the end. None of them joined together.

How many incisor teeth did this dog have? Did he have 6 with one being double or was it only five, because the 2 were fused?

 

[animalady]

I am so pleased to see this thread re these two problems - my gorgeous little poodle has a double incisor - and verity my bitch pup who has come on so promisingly has a floating rib which is quite prominent and im concerned she will not do as well in the showring because of it.

she has her first show next month ...

 

[nina]

I am so pleased to see this thread re these two problems - my gorgeous little poodle has a double incisor -  and verity my bitch pup who has come on so promisingly has a floating rib which is quite prominent and im concerned she will not do as well in the showring because of it.she has her first show next month ...

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I have seen many dogs & bitches in the ring of different breeds with floating ribs & they do not appear to have been penalised for it & some have gone on to become Champions so i personally wouldn't worry :luck:

 

[nina]

a gentleman at ringcraft brought his whippet puppy (not my breeding btw  ) over to show me a couple of years ago and asked my opinion on his puppy bitches double tooth, it was a lot larger than the other teeth, had a groove down the centre and a what looked like a chip out in the centre of the bottom edge, i saw her again about 6 months later and her baby tooth had been replaced by a perfectly normal adult tooth.
now whats everyone opinion about a dog that had a double baby tooth as a puppy but when it dropped out was replaced by a totally normal adult tooth, how risky would it be concidered to breed from this dog?

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Excellent point :thumbsup: Yes i once saw a pup that had a double baby tooth but when the adult teeth came through they were fine yet most times its the other way around & the baby teeth are perfect & the double tooth comes through in the adult teeth.

 

[nina]

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Hi Cristina

This is very interesting. May i ask how did the fused tooth you were shown by the owner differ from the photo i have managed to put on? How was it different?

What was the owners explanation if you are able to relay it?

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Nina,

The owner while showing me the mouth of the dog said that it was the result of a baby tooth not falling out and the adult tooth coming through joining onto it. They said if they had notice the problem earlier on they would of pulled the baby tooth (no mention of it being a fused tooth). The only different in the photo to the whippet I saw was that it was the two middle upper teeth.

From what I saw if one didn't expose the teeth up to the gum line it could be missed when being judged, or just see that the dog had the correct bite. I mean I've had some judges just run their finger along the front to check bite not really taking much interest in the mouth so I gather it will depend on the judges attention to detail and preference at the end of the day if a dog goes up or down.

I have seen a fused tooth in other breeds but as I said this was the first time in a Whippet.

Cristina

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Thats very interesting Cristina, thank you for that :thumbsup: I have seen something similar to what you are explaining in a toy poodle but it was one of the canine teeth that had come through & the baby canine was still there & was never removed & the 2 teeth did sort of fuse together so when i saw the dog aged around 3 it actually looked like a double canine tooth but was of course just the adult & baby tooth wedged together.

 

[05whippet]

I am so pleased to see this thread re these two problems - my gorgeous little poodle has a double incisor -  and verity my bitch pup who has come on so promisingly has a floating rib which is quite prominent and im concerned she will not do as well in the showring because of it.she has her first show next month ...

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I have seen many dogs & bitches in the ring of different breeds with floating ribs & they do not appear to have been penalised for it & some have gone on to become Champions so i personally wouldn't worry :luck:

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I agree with the above comments....a floating rib will not affect the dogs performance in the ring & I can't imagine any judge penalising for it. It does become less noticable if the dog can maintain his/her weight. :thumbsup:

 

[animalady]

I am so pleased to see this thread re these two problems - my gorgeous little poodle has a double incisor -  and verity my bitch pup who has come on so promisingly has a floating rib which is quite prominent and im concerned she will not do as well in the showring because of it.she has her first show next month ...

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I have seen many dogs & bitches in the ring of different breeds with floating ribs & they do not appear to have been penalised for it & some have gone on to become Champions so i personally wouldn't worry :luck:

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I agree with the above comments....a floating rib will not affect the dogs performance in the ring & I can't imagine any judge penalising for it. It does become less noticable if the dog can maintain his/her weight. :thumbsup:

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well thats encouraging news - i feel with verity that shes at the gangly stage at the mo anyways so i hope it will become less prominent as she matures - bless her she is showing such promising signs otherwise - not to mention a lovely nature amidst that beauty...

thank you of your helpful comments. :wub:

 

[netheredge]

Any comments on "calf-licks" and would the size be a determining factor? Is this condition hereditary?. Kneedham

 

[nina]

Any comments on "calf-licks" and would the size be a determining factor? Is this condition hereditary?.  Kneedham

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Now this is really interesting as i went to buy a puppy once but on viewing the litter i actually preferred another pup but was told it could not be sold as a show prospect because it had a "rose" on its head??? :wacko:

The "rose" was in fact a calf lick but being on a brindle & on the top of the head it was to me barely noticeable.

I know they differ in degree's tho & can go from being a really small swirl to a long ridge that can go right down a neck etc.

Interesting to know what others feel about cow licks?

 

[dessie]

It is also known as Gemination and is hereditary and fairly common especially within line-bred dogs.
Gemination is defined as an incomplete development of two teeth from

one enamel organ. This results in a structure with two completely or incompletely separated

crowns with a single root and root canal. Occasionally we see complete cleavage or

twinning. Gemination is seen in the deciduous as well as in the permanent dentition (Regizi

and Sciubba 1993). Fusion is the joining of two tooth germs, resulting in a single large

tooth. Fusion may involve the entire length of the tooth, or only the roots, depending on the

stage of development of the tooth at the time of the union. The root canal can be shared or

separated. The aetiology of gemination and fusion is unknown, but trauma has been

suggested as a possible cause. Fusion is seen in the deciduous as well as in the permanent

dentition (Ravn 1971). It may be difficult or even impossible to differentiate fusion of

a normal tooth and an adjacent supernumerary tooth from gemination (Verstraete 1999).

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Well there you are!!

Personally, I would not penalise a dog for such a tooth if I was judging as long as the actual bite was correct. IMO there are far worse problems to worry about than a double tooth and if the dog was of sufficient merit it would not stop me breeding from it either.

 

[dessie]

Any comments on "calf-licks" and would the size be a determining factor? Is this condition hereditary?.  Kneedham

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Now this is really interesting as i went to buy a puppy once but on viewing the litter i actually preferred another pup but was told it could not be sold as a show prospect because it had a "rose" on its head??? :wacko:

The "rose" was in fact a calf lick but being on a brindle & on the top of the head it was to me barely noticeable.

I know they differ in degree's tho & can go from being a really small swirl to a long ridge that can go right down a neck etc.

Interesting to know what others feel about cow licks?

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Again, when judging, I wouldn't penalise a dog for having a cow lick. As far as breeding goes, I have never bred one with a whirl or cow lick but never really thought about them much until speaking with someone about cleft palates and they had a theory that they could all go together, along with umbilical hernias or any other problem that occurs along the median line. I don't know if that is so or not but I don't think that would put me off breeding from a dog with a cow lick.

 

[nina]

Any comments on "calf-licks" and would the size be a determining factor? Is this condition hereditary?.  Kneedham

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Now this is really interesting as i went to buy a puppy once but on viewing the litter i actually preferred another pup but was told it could not be sold as a show prospect because it had a "rose" on its head??? :wacko:

The "rose" was in fact a calf lick but being on a brindle & on the top of the head it was to me barely noticeable.

I know they differ in degree's tho & can go from being a really small swirl to a long ridge that can go right down a neck etc.

Interesting to know what others feel about cow licks?

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Again, when judging, I wouldn't penalise a dog for having a cow lick. As far as breeding goes, I have never bred one with a whirl or cow lick but never really thought about them much until speaking with someone about cleft palates and they had a theory that they could all go together, along with umbilical hernias or any other problem that occurs along the median line. I don't know if that is so or not but I don't think that would put me off breeding from a dog with a cow lick.

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Good to hear your opinion & views Caroline especially as a judge/breeder/exhibitor you can see all sides of the coin so to speak. :thumbsup:

Thanks for your input