Question For Judges/breeders/exhibitors

[Natalia]

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do you have any thoughts on the floating ribs?

I'm not a specialist in that either, but personally I would think about it as a part of normal variability of the shape of the ribs.

 

[nina]

Let those without sin cast the first stone
I'm a dentist and the number of my patients with a " normal" dentition is  in a tiny minority.

Geneticaly missing teeth, diminutive teeth, extra teeth, supernumerery teeth, extra cusps on teeth, gemination is very common, to the extent that "normal" is abnormal. If you include root morphology, ie extra roots, extra root canals, root bifurcations, fused roots, dilacerations then even fewer are "normal". Start adding in abnormal tooth "bite" realtionships and the number of "normal" dentitions is even lower with impacted, rotated and displaced teeth being more common than a "normal" relationship. Start adding in abnormal skeletal relationships and the number drops further.

Out of the 3 -4 thousand patients I see on a regular basis I would say the number with 32 "normal" teeth in the correct relationship is in single figures. ( and I'd bet good money some of them will have abnormal root morphology.)

I think you'd need to be a complete fool to dismiss a good dog on abnormal tooth morphology alone.

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Tony, thank you for such a highly informative post. I for one would never have beleived that tooth issues were so common place. It just goes to show you that what many of us take as to be the norm actually isnt!

 

[parnew]

We need to be careful that we don't turn into tooth fairy's as the search for the perfect whippet gains speed. More people are breeding now than ever and that will continue and what we need to do is get back to the basic's of the standard and judge them harder all over the world, have plans in place to stop breeding from big whippets and have a world standard not differing from country to country. To many people breed from what they think is a good bitch and they tell themselves that they can fix up the problems with a good dog and don't have the money or contacts to do such a thing, but who or what can tell owners what to breed too.

Judges putting up there mates and giving a false impression of what is right is the perfect starting point, then if your dogs is over the standard height then no breeding rights, this alone will have a huge impact on the breed. The mouth is important and I would not put a dog at the end of the line if he was a good type but had a tooth as spoke about, IMO there is bigger problems with fronts, EARS, SIZE amongst other things with the breed, not how one tooth sits or how many crosses in the first gens but good strong types with sound pedigrees will always prevail, to many outcrosses and you loose your type or to much inbreeding and you loose and get illness. Have a look at what is winning all around the world then look how they are bred and try and break into that line or the breed with a simlar amount of outcross and line breeding with the lines you have. There a programs that can help you work out the amount of COI in your line if you wish to put the info into to it.

 

[nina]

We need to be careful that we don't turn into tooth fairy's as the search for the perfect whippet gains speed. More people are breeding now than ever and that will continue and what we need to do is get back to the basic's of the standard and judge them harder all over the world, have plans in place to stop breeding from big whippets and have a world standard not differing from country to country. To many people breed from what they think is a good bitch and they tell themselves that they can fix up the problems with a good dog and don't have the money or contacts to do such a thing, but who or what can tell owners what to breed too.Judges putting up there mates and giving a false impression of what is right is the perfect starting point, then if your dogs is over the standard height then no breeding rights, this alone will have a huge impact on the breed. The mouth is important and I would not put a dog at the end of the line if he was a good type but had a tooth as spoke about, IMO there is bigger problems with fronts, EARS, SIZE amongst other things with the breed, not how one tooth sits or how many crosses in the first gens but good strong types with sound pedigrees will always prevail, to many outcrosses and you loose your type or to much inbreeding and you loose and get illness. Have a look at what is winning all around the world then look how they are bred and try and break into that line or the breed with a simlar amount of outcross and line breeding with the lines you have. There a programs that can help you work out the amount of COI in your line if you wish to put the info into to it.

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Have to say i personally totally agree with all the points you have raised here 100 per cent :thumbsup:

Many years ago when i came into the world of dog showing i was fortunate enough to be taken under the wing of a very great lady who had been breeding for many many years & had established fantastic blood lines in several different breeds. She was a real dyed in the wool dog person & her knowledge was excetional as were here dogs.

She once told me regarding breeding that to establish a good line she felt the best procedure was to go "out" once & then fairly tightly back in twice. By doing this she kept her type but also regained some of the things that she felt by continually line breeding she would lose like maybe pigment etc.

I can only say that it definitely worked for her & she had many beautiful Champions in several breeds.

 

[Wayward_Angel]

have only just looked at this thread, and have only skimmed through the pages.

as is regards to floating ribs my first whippet sparky had one, on his show side - Only one judge ever remarked on it (can't remember if he put him up or not), He gained his title and group wins. Don't think any of his littermates had one his dam didn't and his sire never seen personally but don't think he had one, and he was used quite a bit in NZ.

 

[bertha]

I whole heartedly agree with parnews post. It is time we really looked at how big our whippets have become.

I took my measure to our South West Whippet Club open show, people paid 20p which went to JR whippet rescue to have their dog measured. That was a most interesting day!

We should be looking at what we are doing, not just using the latest champion, study the pedigrees, ask breeders who have been "at it" for years. There is a wealth of knowledge out there, use it.

Size is a problem far worse than double teeth and floating ribs, we now have whippets that have lost the elegance and quality of dogs from the past, I don't mean years ago, ten years have altered the whippet so much.

Exhibitors now race round the ring because their dog is too big! Where has the lovely flowing movement gone.

Too late for me, I have come to the end and will not be breeding again, getting too old!

I just hope somewhere someone will take on board size, sound movement, profile and too and fro, and conformation before it is too late.

 

[rls22]

Out of interest what are we classing as too big? Anything over standard?

 

[posh totty]

interesting that size is brought up , my family have had whippets since before i was even thought of and although i am new to showing of them , i still have spent over 35 yrs actively with the breed ,from whippets i grew up with to whippets now the size difference is rather noticeable , from the working background i have always preferred around 18 inches for bitches and 19 possibly 20 for a dog , ut having a 19 inch dog in the ring the size difference seems huge at times, my bitches look positively teeny at 18 inch and under!!! although the older of my two girls is 18 3/4 she still looks small :thumbsup:

 

[midlanderkeith]

I whole heartedly agree with parnews post. It is time we really looked at how big our whippets have become.I took my measure to our South West Whippet Club open show, people paid 20p which went to JR whippet rescue to have their dog measured. That was a most interesting day!

We should be looking at what we are doing, not just using the latest champion, study the pedigrees, ask breeders who have been "at it" for years. There is a wealth of knowledge out there, use it.

Size is a problem far worse than double teeth and floating ribs, we now have whippets that have lost the elegance and quality of dogs from the past, I don't mean years ago, ten years have altered the whippet so much.

Exhibitors now race round the ring because their dog is too big! Where has the lovely flowing movement gone.

Too late for me, I have come to the end and will not be breeding again, getting too old!

I just hope somewhere someone will take on board size, sound movement, profile and too and fro, and conformation before it is too late.

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Well said our Bertha, far to big in my opinion some of todays whippets, and i for one am looking into what i call a true whippet, in size :cheers:

 

[affieluver]

my little girl is only just 18 inches and looks tiny in the ring sometimes i also agree there is some huge whippets about at the moment especially the dogs they almost look like greyhounds :blink:

 

[dolly]

I whole heartedly agree with parnews post. It is time we really looked at how big our whippets have become.I took my measure to our South West Whippet Club open show, people paid 20p which went to JR whippet rescue to have their dog measured. That was a most interesting day!

We should be looking at what we are doing, not just using the latest champion, study the pedigrees, ask breeders who have been "at it" for years. There is a wealth of knowledge out there, use it.

Size is a problem far worse than double teeth and floating ribs, we now have whippets that have lost the elegance and quality of dogs from the past, I don't mean years ago, ten years have altered the whippet so much.

Exhibitors now race round the ring because their dog is too big! Where has the lovely flowing movement gone.

Too late for me, I have come to the end and will not be breeding again, getting too old!

I just hope somewhere someone will take on board size, sound movement, profile and too and fro, and conformation before it is too late.

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Just out of interest Anne, how many were of size according to the breed standard.

 

[midlanderkeith]

my little girl is only just 18 inches and looks tiny in the ring sometimes i also agree there is some huge whippets about at the moment especially the dogs they almost look like greyhounds :blink:

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Took the very words out of my mouth Kelly, like greyhounds, and unable to do what our beloved breed was bred for, and that is WORK

:cheers:

 

[affieluver]

my little girl is only just 18 inches and looks tiny in the ring sometimes i also agree there is some huge whippets about at the moment especially the dogs they almost look like greyhounds :blink:

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Took the very words out of my mouth Kelly, like greyhounds, and unable to do what our beloved breed was bred for, and that is WORK

:cheers:

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surely this comes down to the breeders though as they ultimatly have the say as to wether or not the dog is of the correct show standard height wise or am i being a bit niave here :b

 

[midlanderkeith]

my little girl is only just 18 inches and looks tiny in the ring sometimes i also agree there is some huge whippets about at the moment especially the dogs they almost look like greyhounds :blink:

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Took the very words out of my mouth Kelly, like greyhounds, and unable to do what our beloved breed was bred for, and that is WORK

:cheers:

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surely this comes down to the breeders though as they ultimatly have the say as to wether or not the dog is of the correct show standard height wise or am i being a bit niave here :b

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Its not just the height Kelly that bothers me, its the overall construction of todays whippets, we are losing it

:cheers:

 

[bertha]

I was surprised with the measuring! One exhibitor said her dog was not as big as I measured it! It was way over size! Most were slightly over size, more than I expected, both dogs and bitches.

If the KC brought in measuring loads of whippet would not pass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! being over size.

Is that the way to go? We are losing the whippet as I have known it since the late 1950s.

Can we go back? An over the standard whippet will nearly always beat one of correct size, it is hard to win in the show ring with a bog standard sized whippet. I think we have lost the eye for correct sized whippets.

For working you need a "whippet" strong well made and the right size. Racing is another story and I am not going down that road.

 

[midlanderkeith]

I was surprised with the measuring! One exhibitor said her dog was not as big as I measured it! It was way over size! Most were slightly over size, more than I expected, both dogs and bitches.
If the KC brought in measuring loads of whippet would not pass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! being over size.

Is that the way to go? We are losing the whippet as I have known it since the late 1950s.

Can we go back? An over the standard whippet will nearly always beat one of correct size, it is hard to win in the show ring with a bog standard sized whippet. I think we have lost the eye for correct sized whippets.

For working you need a "whippet" strong well made and the right size. Racing is another story and I am not going down that road.

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Can we go back, an over the standard whippet will nearly always beat one of correct size. yes weve lost it

:cheers:

 

[T Hoare]

We can only play with the cards we are dealt with.

 

[nina]

sooo, if we think that cow licks or calf licks or roses could possibly be a mild sign of a more serious birth defect, then surely we'd have some indication that a double tooth was a 'tip of the iceburg' warning sign of a hereditry defect - if no one has yet identified one, then maybe its safe to assume that its safe to use the dog for breeding, all other things considered?
I hope this post makes sense! :- "  :b

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Well Alison in all the split teeth in whippets i have seen or known about in the last 25 years or so i have NEVER known any of the dogs to go on to produce anything sinister or health detrimental in any way. :thumbsup: it would be interesting to know if anyone else knows anything to the contrary.

 

[Seraphina]

Let those without sin cast the first stone
I'm a dentist and the number of my patients with a " normal" dentition is  in a tiny minority.

I think you'd need to be a complete fool to dismiss a good dog on abnormal tooth morphology alone.

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Dental genetics is incredibly complicated, when i said I will ask my friend about it I did not expect he will tell me how it is inherited, just his opinion on it as as a dentist and judge.

The thing is there is a difference between humans and dogs. We penalize dogs with incorrect bite. We also exclude from breeding dogs with just one perfectly normal trait, which we consider undesirable in particular breed, even colour in some breeds. So why not double tooth?

You cannot compare such minor problems in humans and dogs, if not for other reason than that not many people have children with very close relatives, like their siblings or grandchildren.

 

[Seraphina]

I meant to add that I am not saying that IMO we should necessarily discard dogs with double teeth I am just interested why we consider bite out by 2mm as unacceptable, but weird tooth OK?