Question For Judges/breeders/exhibitors

[quintessence]

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I knew I had read something about this so I have been searching and found the link from Dog World, particularly interesting is the part about the Ch. Dachshund.

I haven't posted the article because there's probably a warning somewhere not to but the link is easy enough if you want to have a read, it's about half-way down the first page.

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Features/9-Brace

Jenny

 

[nina]

I knew I had read something about this so I have been searching and found the link from Dog World, particularly interesting is the part about the Ch. Dachshund.I haven't posted the article because there's probably a warning somewhere not to but the link is easy enough if you want to have a read, it's about half-way down the first page.

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Features/9-Brace

Jenny

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Well, thats definitely food for thought Jenny, thank you for posting that, interesting read & goes to show just how split opinions & views obviously are on this subject :thumbsup:

 

[Eceni]

Hello

thanks to the person who hailed me in my reclusivity and pointed out the thread - fascinating stuff.

I always thought the tooth issue was called 'germination' with an 'r' in the middle, but that apart, just about everything has been said. It's reported in people and can be in the deciduous teeth without being in the adult teeth. I've never heard of the reverse, but imagine it could happen - it'll be interesting to find out what the real dentist says.

and it sounds as if the problem's been well aired re: the distinction between a breed fault and something that would actually damage the breed long-term. I've had a quick google search and haven't yet found anything which can tell me the heredity of this - if it's a recessive, then simply not-breeding from affected animals isn't enough to eradicate it. If it's dominant (which I doubt), then it would be. So what we need is Natalia's input on how best to be sure it's not there in breeding stock.

and floating ribs - ditto. I'd do my best to strike off any vet who operated to remove a visible one, I can't imagine a worse excuse for giving an animal a general anaesthetic, but they're cosmetic, not functional. In an ideal world, they'd probably not be there, but working out the inheritance would be something of a nightmare and eradicating it would be tricky, I'd have said.

As Patsy says, and most of you seem to concur, those who are breeding professionally have the breed's welfare in their hands for a relatively short span of time (tho' that's still dozens of generations in some cases) and so are striving for improvements in health all the time. - I'd be a lot more concerned about the dentition than about the visible floating rib, but I'd start to worry about the latter if it turned up regularly...

on the topic of which, did any of the UK people see the letter in last month's 'Dog's Today' about COIs in which Mike Willis said that any CoI over 10 was unlikely to be found in a UK pedigree breed? It's amusing, if nothing else, given the earlier conversations. I'll try to dig it out and post it in another thread.

m (who quite likes the erect ears in some of the non-ped whippets, but realises this is whippet-heresy... )

 

[Mychaka]

Sorry Christina but I do not think that is possible. The second teeth are formed long time before they come out. Some breeds, like poodles and chihuahuas have lots pf problems with loosing their baby teeth. I have seen 5 - 6 months olds with both and the baby teeth had to be extracted in the end. None of them joined together.

Lida, I never said I agreed with the owners reasons I was just relaying what they told me.

This is why I have found this thread to be interesting as a lot of what has been explained is what I think and feel myself. And as I don't claim to be any expert in this area I did not feel at the time or wish to say they were incorrect. Hopefully the owners are reading this thread too and find it just as useful.

Cristina

 

[05whippet]

It is also known as Gemination and is hereditary and fairly common especially within line-bred dogs.
Gemination is defined as an incomplete development of two teeth from

one enamel organ. This results in a structure with two completely or incompletely separated

crowns with a single root and root canal. Occasionally we see complete cleavage or

twinning. Gemination is seen in the deciduous as well as in the permanent dentition (Regizi

and Sciubba 1993). Fusion is the joining of two tooth germs, resulting in a single large

tooth. Fusion may involve the entire length of the tooth, or only the roots, depending on the

stage of development of the tooth at the time of the union. The root canal can be shared or

separated. The aetiology of gemination and fusion is unknown, but trauma has been

suggested as a possible cause. Fusion is seen in the deciduous as well as in the permanent

dentition (Ravn 1971). It may be difficult or even impossible to differentiate fusion of

a normal tooth and an adjacent supernumerary tooth from gemination (Verstraete 1999).

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Well there you are!!

Personally, I would not penalise a dog for such a tooth if I was judging as long as the actual bite was correct. IMO there are far worse problems to worry about than a double tooth and if the dog was of sufficient merit it would not stop me breeding from it either.

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My thoughts too Caroline...but it seems to be quite a thought provoking issue. And it is great to have more judge's opinions regarding it.

 

[05whippet]

Hello
thanks to the person who hailed me in my reclusivity and pointed out the thread - fascinating stuff.

I always thought the tooth issue was called 'germination' with an 'r' in the middle, but that apart, just about everything has been said. It's reported in people and can be in the deciduous teeth without being in the adult teeth. I've never heard of the reverse, but imagine it could happen - it'll be interesting to find out what the real dentist says. 

and it sounds as if the problem's been well aired re: the distinction between a breed fault and something that would actually damage the breed long-term.  I've had a quick google search and haven't yet found anything which can tell me the heredity of this - if it's a recessive, then simply not-breeding from affected animals isn't enough to eradicate it. If it's dominant (which I doubt), then it would be.  So what we need is Natalia's input on how best to be sure it's not there in breeding stock.

and floating ribs - ditto.  I'd do my best to strike off any vet who operated to remove a visible one, I can't imagine a worse excuse for giving an animal a general anaesthetic, but they're cosmetic, not functional.  In an ideal world, they'd probably not be there, but working out the inheritance would be something of a nightmare and eradicating it would be tricky, I'd have said.

As Patsy says, and most of you seem to concur, those who are breeding professionally have the breed's welfare in their hands for a relatively short span of time (tho' that's still dozens of generations in some cases) and so are striving for improvements in health all the time. - I'd be a lot more concerned about the dentition than about the visible floating rib, but I'd start to worry about the latter if it turned up regularly... 

on the topic of which, did any of the UK people see the letter in last month's 'Dog's Today' about COIs in which Mike Willis said that any CoI over 10 was unlikely to be found in a UK pedigree breed?  It's amusing, if nothing else, given the earlier conversations. I'll try to dig it out and post it in another thread.

m (who quite likes the erect ears in some of the non-ped whippets, but realises this is whippet-heresy... )

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I only quoted the text from a dental study on canines dentition & faults...they called it Gemination NOT me and I was'nt and are'nt in a position to argue the point with a dentist - canine or otherwise!

 

[05whippet]

I knew I had read something about this so I have been searching and found the link from Dog World, particularly interesting is the part about the Ch. Dachshund.I haven't posted the article because there's probably a warning somewhere not to but the link is easy enough if you want to have a read, it's about half-way down the first page.

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Features/9-Brace

Jenny

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That made for very interesting reading...thanks for that! :thumbsup:

 

[oakmoorehill]

[

Now this is another one that I would be very interested in knowing others opinions of....a floating rib? Fault? deformity? or what? And should the dog be penalised for having it?

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Floating ribs are the last ribs, they are perfectly normal

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Yes,but I was led to believe that a floating rib was where the last rib stuck out a little from the rest of the ribcage ie:not lying flat to the body but protruding slightly...am I making any sense?

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William my greyhound has a floating rib as has his sire. It is common in greyhounds. At the moment it does sick out but when he has his proper weight on it doesn't show at all. It has never gone against him in the ring and on only one occasion has a judge mentioned it and that was at a companion show. I've never had a whippet with one so don't know how it is with them

 

[oakmoorehill]

This is William's floating rib he is turning away from the camera to make it easier to see

 

[Eceni]

I only quoted the text from a dental study on canines dentition & faults...they called it Gemination NOT me and I was'nt and are'nt in a position to argue the point with a dentist - canine or otherwise! 

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not a problem, I just put it up in case anyone else wanted to google it.

awaiting dental opinion with bated breath...

m

 

[jayp]

Any comments on "calf-licks" and would the size be a determining factor? Is this condition hereditary?.  Kneedham

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Now this is really interesting as i went to buy a puppy once but on viewing the litter i actually preferred another pup but was told it could not be sold as a show prospect because it had a "rose" on its head??? :wacko:

The "rose" was in fact a calf lick but being on a brindle & on the top of the head it was to me barely noticeable.

I know they differ in degree's tho & can go from being a really small swirl to a long ridge that can go right down a neck etc.

Interesting to know what others feel about cow licks?

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Again, when judging, I wouldn't penalise a dog for having a cow lick. As far as breeding goes, I have never bred one with a whirl or cow lick but never really thought about them much until speaking with someone about cleft palates and they had a theory that they could all go together, along with umbilical hernias or any other problem that occurs along the median line. I don't know if that is so or not but I don't think that would put me off breeding from a dog with a cow lick.

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I have taken note of some dogs ive seen with calflicks or roses and interestingly a good percentage more than you would assume actually occured in very close matings, accidental in some cases, brother sister, father daughter and as these matings are rare and calflicks are rare it was interesting to note the two appeared together

And if i thought they were in some way associated with central line defects,which i do, then i would not in any circumstances breed from them. As said there are plenty of good dogs out there without risking reproducing the fault or defect

 

[doris]

sooo, if we think that cow licks or calf licks or roses could possibly be a mild sign of a more serious birth defect, then surely we'd have some indication that a double tooth was a 'tip of the iceburg' warning sign of a hereditry defect - if no one has yet identified one, then maybe its safe to assume that its safe to use the dog for breeding, all other things considered?

I hope this post makes sense! :- " :b

 

[bertha]

Calf licks, double teeth, floating ribs. These things have been around for years. They do not affect the health of the whippet. I would not penalise any of these faults as they are not mentioned in the KC Breed Standard, there are far more serious inherited things to worry about, flat feet, steep upper arms, poor movement.

 

[nina]

Calf licks, double teeth, floating ribs. These things have been around for years. They do not affect the health of the whippet. I would not penalise any of these faults as they are not mentioned in the KC Breed Standard, there are far more serious inherited things to worry about, flat feet, steep upper arms, poor movement.

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They certainly have been around for many years & i can see from your post that you are obviously highly knowledgeable & have so to speak "been there & done it" & know exactly whats what :thumbsup:

Thank you for your input :thumbsup:

 

[wild whippies]

For those interested. Study of Gemination in Lakelands.

Got to say I've seen a lot of humans teeth and this particular condition has no associated syndromes within humans and I can't find any associated syndromes within dogs either.

Like's been said I fail to see how this could be a fault worthy of penalising and the same goes for bony spurs on ribs. Whilst they may not be aesthetically pleasing to some, they do not impair the dogs function as a whippet.

I'll bring this topic to Tony's attention (dentist)

 

[nina]

For those interested. Study of Gemination in Lakelands.
Got to say I've seen a lot of humans teeth and this particular condition has no associated syndromes within humans and I can't find any associated syndromes within dogs either.

Like's been said I fail to see how this could be a fault worthy of penalising and the same goes for bony spurs on ribs. Whilst they may not be aesthetically pleasing to some, they do not impair the dogs function as a whippet.

I'll bring this topic to Tony's attention (dentist)

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Thanks Jacs, that will be interesting :thumbsup:

The dogs that i have seen with a split tooth have certainly NOT been inbred & infact on the contrary not even line bred?

Apart from the split tooth they have certainly suffered NO other health related or hereditary issues at all

 

[Tony Taylor]

Let those without sin cast the first stone

I'm a dentist and the number of my patients with a " normal" dentition is in a tiny minority.

Geneticaly missing teeth, diminutive teeth, extra teeth, supernumerery teeth, extra cusps on teeth, gemination is very common, to the extent that "normal" is abnormal. If you include root morphology, ie extra roots, extra root canals, root bifurcations, fused roots, dilacerations then even fewer are "normal". Start adding in abnormal tooth "bite" realtionships and the number of "normal" dentitions is even lower with impacted, rotated and displaced teeth being more common than a "normal" relationship. Start adding in abnormal skeletal relationships and the number drops further.

Out of the 3 -4 thousand patients I see on a regular basis I would say the number with 32 "normal" teeth in the correct relationship is in single figures. ( and I'd bet good money some of them will have abnormal root morphology.)

I think you'd need to be a complete fool to dismiss a good dog on abnormal tooth morphology alone.

 

[seaspot_run]

Midline defects (or what you are terming "central line defects") in humans are associated with multiple non-genetic things such as the age of the mother, exposure to chemicals, folic acid deficiency, etc.

To me, an anomaly which causes no problems and does not affect either the function or the overall appearance of the dog is trivial. I have a birthmark on my back. Does this make me a bad specimen????

 

[Natalia]

I always thought the tooth issue was called 'germination' with an 'r' in the middle, but that apart, just about everything has been said. It's reported in people and can be in the deciduous teeth without being in the adult teeth. I've never heard of the reverse, but imagine it could happen - it'll be interesting to find out what the real dentist says. 
and it sounds as if the problem's been well aired re: the distinction between a breed fault and something that would actually damage the breed long-term.  I've had a quick google search and haven't yet found anything which can tell me the heredity of this - if it's a recessive, then simply not-breeding from affected animals isn't enough to eradicate it. If it's dominant (which I doubt), then it would be.  So what we need is Natalia's input on how best to be sure it's not there in breeding stock.

I have never been interested in tooth development before, so I don't have deep knowledge on that subject. The only article I could find on that topic is the study made on Lakeland Terriers cited few posts earlier. What's interesting, the researchers didn't find a Mendelian pattern of inheritance, what means that its mode of inheritance is more complicated, involves many genes, or depends of environment etc. However, it's rather recessive than dominant, as you can get dogs with this treat from two unaffected.

However, this kind of developmental issues are rather common and it's very hard to tell what the reason for that in any single case. If you get it in many members of one family, you can suspect genetic background, but it can be purely incidental. For example, my own daughter has two of her toes not completely separated, and this kind of abnormality has never been seen in any member of mine or her father's family. It can be we both are carrying a recessive gene for it, but it is also possible that it was a single incident during her development (the "faults" like that begin with simple two cells not dividing completely at some early stage of forming the structure, and the reason can be as simple as lack of space).

In the study mentioned before the authors write about many neonatal deaths, but they not mention any other conditions the dogs did suffer, so we don't now if there were any. If the small irregularity was only in the tooth, I would not be afraid of breeding from such an animal.

I know that another abnormalities in number and shape of tooth roots were also observed in dogs and cats.

And about the name of the process - the term "germination", with r in the midle, comes from "germ" (embryo) and its when something grows big from a small structure, like a plant from a seed, or a tooth from a tooth germ.

And "gemination", without r, comes from "gemini" (=twins) and is the process when something singular grows into something doubled. So gemination can be observed during germination.

 

[Eceni]

And about the name of the process - the term "germination", with r in the midle, comes from "germ" (embryo) and its when something grows big from a small structure, like a plant from a seed, or a tooth from a tooth germ. And "gemination", without r, comes from "gemini" (=twins) and is the process when something singular grows into something doubled. So gemination can be observed during germination.

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Oops - :b - thank you - I'll revise my googling methods - and apologies to the OP who raised the nomenclature....

and thank you for the input from you and the dentist.... sounds like it's best ignored.

do you have any thoughts on the floating ribs?

m