Question

[aslan]

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The Australian standard says:

Eyes: oval, bright, expression very alert

In the extended standard it states:

Eye colour is not mentioned in the Standard, however, a light eye tends to spoil the expression; it is generally accepted that a dark eye is preferrable.

Personally I can't see that a blue eye ruins an alert expression. I have not seen many adult whippets with blue eyes apart from the pics on here, but for me I can't say it makes them look less alert. It may not make them look as sweet but the standard doesn't call for a sweet expression, it calls for an alert expression.

However, the extended standard also lists harsh/staring eyes as a fault. This seems a contradiction to me when 'sweet' is not asked for in the standard wording.

I think if whilst I was judging in Australia or the UK (or any other country whose standard had the same wording) I found a dog that was extremely good in all other aspects, I would find it hard to not place it because of a blue eye alone, purely on what the standard says.

If I were judging in the US then I would have to disqualify the same dog.

Coming from a childhood in Dalmatians where a blue eye is considered a major fault - it is difficult to drag oneself away from that feeling. But I had to make myself look at the standard and then look at the dogs here with blue eyes and I really can't see that it makes them less alert looking. Just my opinion.

 

[Avalonia]

Blue eyes are a disqualifying fault here in Canada. Back in the mid 1980s we rescued a whippet bitch and dog that a local woman bred out of a widely popular US bloodline at that time. There was an analysis of incidences of blue eyes done in the US back in the 90s and the bloodline that our bitch came from was linked strongly to incidences of blue eyes in whippet. Since I know some of that line were exported to Scandinavia it would be interesting to go back a handful of generations and see what American lines are behind some of those dogs with blue eyes there.

In the case of our Laura, she was a beautifully conformed whippet and would have been pick of her litter except for the one blue, one chocolate brown eye. The blue eye does not affect vision and we were more than happy to take her in and give her a good home life as her breeder's decision was to quietly euthanize her so no one would know! So we paid her full puppy price to save Laura, who rewarded us with faithful companionship and affection for 14 wonderful years. Oh, and we did the same with her little brother, a male with a single testicle (on surgery no evidence of a second testicle was found). That boy became known as One Ball Jack in our household and I used to delight in telling friends who thought it a curious name that Jack was a boy of sweetness and steadfastness and courage, unlike a lot of the males I knew in the industry I worked in, who seemed to have no balls at all when it came to making difficult decisions! 'nuff said!

Lanny

 

[Lurca]

Back in the mid 1980s we rescued a whippet bitch and dog that a local woman bred out of a widely popular US bloodline at that time.  There was an analysis of incidences of blue eyes done in the US back in the 90s and the bloodline that our bitch came from was linked strongly to incidences of blue eyes in whippet. 

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Hi Lanny,

would you mind telling us the bloodline you are referring to?

Very interested,

Barbara

 

[Ridgesetter]

It was me who mentioned I'd bred a dog with one brown and one blue eye and I petted him out. I have been told that the same sire has produced a pup with one blue eye in another litter and my understanding is the breeder of that litter also petted out the pup. I hadn't thought much about it until someone else mentioned it but I probably wouldn't breed from a dog with a blue eye no matter how stunning he or she was.

Lana, as for the breed extension here in Oz, I've been vocal that I don't entirely agree with the slant towards a preference for dark eyes :angry: and am making a recommendation for a change along the lines of eyes harmonising with the coat colour.

I do believe that regardless of breed, eye colour should harmonise with the coat colour and should never be the first thing you notice on the dog or find offensive and I think most judges would agree. :- "

It's a difficult call with odd eyes but again, standards don't go into every possibility but outline the ideal. I think if odd or wall eyes were usual, the standard would mention it as it does with other breed standards. :thumbsup:

Should odd / wall eyes be included in our breed extension?

Cheers

 

[aslan]

In all honesty I don't think a blue eye harmonises with any coat colour - even in the breeds in which it is allowed.

To me a blue eye (even in the breeds where it is allowed - eg Huskies) is a little shock to the system upon first encounter and I have to accustom myself to the look and remind myself that it is acceptable. But again I have to ask myself, is this because of my Dalmatian beginnings?

If we were to include it in the whippet extension what would we say? The colour may not be usual but how do we decide whether it is a fault or not? Just because it happens rarely does this make it a fault? Some of the coat colours happen rarely (tri-colours) but they are not classified as faults. When the country of origin's standard does not single out blue eyes - why should we?

One also has to wonder - why is a blue eye a fault in a dalmatian and not in a harlequin Great Dane? Same coat colour :blink:

 

[dessie]

In all honesty I don't think a blue eye harmonises with any coat colour - even in the breeds in which it is allowed.
To me a blue eye (even in the breeds where it is allowed - eg Huskies) is a little shock to the system upon first encounter and I have to accustom myself to the look and remind myself that it is acceptable.  But again I have to ask myself, is this because of my Dalmatian beginnings?

If we were to include it in the whippet extension what would we say?  The colour may not be usual but how do we decide whether it is a fault or not?  Just because it happens rarely does this make it a fault?  Some of the coat colours happen rarely (tri-colours) but they are not classified as faults.  [SIZE=14pt]When the country of origin's standard does not single out blue eyes - why should we?[/SIZE]

One also has to wonder - why is a blue eye a fault in a dalmatian and not in a harlequin Great Dane?  Same coat colour  :blink:

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Hurrah! At last someone has remembered that Whippets are an English breed!!!

 

[05whippet]

In all honesty I don't think a blue eye harmonises with any coat colour - even in the breeds in which it is allowed.

To me a blue eye (even in the breeds where it is allowed - eg Huskies) is a little shock to the system upon first encounter and I have to accustom myself to the look and remind myself that it is acceptable. But again I have to ask myself, is this because of my Dalmatian beginnings?

If we were to include it in the whippet extension what would we say? The colour may not be usual but how do we decide whether it is a fault or not? Just because it happens rarely does this make it a fault? Some of the coat colours happen rarely (tri-colours) but they are not classified as faults. When the country of origin's standard does not single out blue eyes - why should we?

One also has to wonder - why is a blue eye a fault in a dalmatian and not in a harlequin Great Dane? Same coat colour :blink: I am wondering if that has anything to do with the fact that most harlequin Danes have grey/blue patches in their coats too as is the same as the merle Collies with which the blue eye coloring is synonimous as opposed to the Dalmation who is blk&wh?? or also liver & white, altho I am assuming you are referring to the blk&wh.

 

[glennSKii]

hello all,

My white-blue parti 5-month old has it like this:

as a young pup, he had a dark-blue eye and a light blue eye. i chose him from a litter of 6! and i had first choice! none of the other dogs had "abnormal" eyes. all the rest had perfect dark brown eyes. but i still choose him.

as he got to be an older puppy, the light-blue eye faded to very light-blue and the dark blue eye was exposed to larger and larger amounts of the brown pigmentation which gives us the following colors from pupil to the white of the eye:

pupil - dark blue - green - brown - white of the eye....

the green (which is a mix of the brown and the blue, i would think) part seems to be giving way to brown. im wondering if the eye will become completely brown or not. looks quite possible... but dark blue is still a major part of the eye's color make-up.

strange. i used to have a Dalmatian, and i am quite familiar with that breed. He sired litters of 7, 8, and 12. and i took part in all that stuff. Based partially on this experience maybe, i thought that the fact that Astro is a Blue Parti , along with the fact that his blue patch didn't "catch" his right eye (left eye, looking at his photo) caused the light-blue eye.

Looking at the examples that the owners sent above here in K9, it makes me begin to question my theory. my theory was based much upon what i know about Dalmatians... When a Dalmatian's eye doesnt get a black (or liver) spot pigment, they usually get a blue eye. I think its similar goings-on with the marble-coated dogs like australian shepard....

Well, even though these examples seem to make me wonder again what is going on, i guess my theory is still plausable, cuz it could be for different reasons for different dogs...

Nice to see this topic here... I wouldnt trade my 2-eye color dog for anything! i picked him first for his personality, second for his build early on compared to the others, and third for the striking look he gives to you! And as i read above, i wouldnt expect him to be much more likely to have blue-eyed offspring, but of course i could be wrong. and his vision seems great as well.

and as for the opinion that a blue eye doesnt "harmonize" with any coat color... hmmm.... i beg to differ. since when does blue not go with blue? i like it with fawn too. and perhaps others. Astro is my little David Bowie.

and as for the differences in breeds.... one calling it a fault and the other not... its actually quite easy, i think. if it has an adverse affect on health/performance, its a fault. Blue eyed Dalmatians tend to have more eye problems. they also do better with the black pigment around the eyes too (which goes hand in hand with the brown eye-color)

if blue eyes in Whippets cannot be connected with health or performance issues, then i think UK and the other countries' standards are right. If it can, then the AKC is right. I hope (and also assume), that the Brits are right!! and the Whippet being a UK breed gives this theory a bit more leverage.

if we were martians breeding humans, would we want to eliminate green eyes and left-handers from the field?

glenn, the american in poland...

ps - i STILL cant find racing blankets for whippets on the net payable by paypal. grrrrrrrrrrrrr......

 

[glennSKii]

dang! i sent the wrong foto! dont know how it happened!

 

[sander]

One also has to wonder - why is a blue eye a fault in a dalmatian and not in a harlequin Great Dane?  Same coat colour  :blink:

This is off topic to an extent, but - my total amateurs understanding is that this is so in dalmatians solely due to the very close link between blue eyes and bilateral deathness in dalmatians. Reportedly disallowing of blue eyes in FCI / UK standards (as opposed to the AKC one) and the resulting breeding away from them is one of the reasons that there is a marked difference in the percentage of dalmatians that are death.

Of course one cannot derive an implication that the same applies in whippets, though in general, BAER testing dogs used in breeding that have large amounts of white (or really all dogs used in breeding) can hardly be a bad thing.

 

[glennSKii]

well,

in fact i didnt want to get into the Dalmatian thing too deep....

but yes, apparently its true that it is linked to deafness.

generally, i understand that the Dalmatians with very few spots, which are usually the ones who don't get the spots on the eyes and the nose, are often the litters full of deafness, skin problems, and sight/eye problems. I have heard that deafness is way up in Dalmatians (due to breeding for attractive spotting without patching which means less spots in practice.) . I think the deaf and under-exercised Dalmatians are the main reason that so many people think they the breed has bad temperaments and/or are unintelligent. They are actually very intelligent dogs in general. Mine served beers from the fridge... i never had to get up from the couch! (he opened and closed fridge, brought can, and put it in trash when i finished it.

I do not regret my time with Dalmatians... But these days, i have emersed in the world of Whippet, and i don't think it could be any better.

 

[bardmand]

One also has to wonder - why is a blue eye a fault in a dalmatian and not in a harlequin Great Dane?  Same coat colour  :blink:

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I don't think they are, actually. Not genetically, anyway. The harlequin pattern in the GD is a modified expression of the merle gene, and can never breed true (a fact which has cost many a merle-coloured GD puppy their lives :rant: ). Whether it is associated with deafness, I am not sure.

 

[05whippet]

One also has to wonder - why is a blue eye a fault in a dalmatian and not in a harlequin Great Dane?  Same coat colour   :blink:

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I don't think they are, actually. Not genetically, anyway. The harlequin pattern in the GD is a modified expression of the merle gene, and can never breed true (a fact which has cost many a merle-coloured GD puppy their lives :rant: ). Whether it is associated with deafness, I am not sure.

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Yep,that is what I was trying to say too,only I put it in more laymans terms as I am not up on coat color genetics. :thumbsup: Our harlequin bitch came from a litter out of a harley dam and a black sire and there was only her who was the harley in the entire litter of 10,there were 2 solid blacks, 2 boston blacks and the rest were merles.they all went into companion homes and none were PTS,but I know it does go on. :angry:

 

[dessie]

Yep,that is what I was trying to say too,only I put it in more laymans terms as I am not up on coat color genetics.  :thumbsup: Our harlequin bitch came from a litter out of a harley dam and a black  sire and there was only her who was the harley in the entire litter of 10,there were 2 solid blacks, 2 boston blacks and the rest were merles.they all went into companion homes and none were PTS,but I know it does go on.  :angry:

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Nooooooooooooooooo. Don't even go there!!!!!! (w00t) LOL!!!

 

[dessie]

dang!  i sent the wrong foto!  dont know how it happened!

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He is just soooooooooo cute!! :wub: :wub:

What do you mean racing 'blankets', do you mean the jackets they wear to race in (red, blue, white, striped etc)??

 

[05whippet]

Yep,that is what I was trying to say too,only I put it in more laymans terms as I am not up on coat color genetics.  :thumbsup: Our harlequin bitch came from a litter out of a harley dam and a black  sire and there was only her who was the harley in the entire litter of 10,there were 2 solid blacks, 2 boston blacks and the rest were merles.they all went into companion homes and none were PTS,but I know it does go on.  :angry:

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Nooooooooooooooooo. Don't even go there!!!!!! (w00t) LOL!!!

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HAHAHAHAHAHA.........note that is why I did'nt!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Seraphina]

The really blue eye is connected with the merle gene, deafness and other possible problems. That is why it is better to stay away from animals having them. In Harlequin Great Danes the merles are more likely to produce albinos with 2 blue eyes who will go blind usually by the age of 6 months. I am not sure if they are all deaf. I knew some people who had an albino puppy, kept him thinking they can avoid him going blind if they keep him out of sunlight, only letting him out at dusk, but by the time he was 4 months old he was already running into things. This puppy was also deaf so it was not even possible to help him directing him vocally.

Saying that, I am not talking about Whippets with very pale eyes. I have seen some so pale yellow they are almost blue, that is not the same though. But I do wonder about desirability of such a pale eyes, as the dark pigment protects the retina from UV rays I believe.

 

[bardmand]

In Harlequin Great Danes the merles are more likely to produce albinos with 2 blue eyes who will go blind usually by the age of 6 months. 

Isn't that only when you double the merle gene? I think GD breeders generally only breed harlequin/merles non-harlequin/merles to avoid double merles, just like merle collies/shelties are only bred to tricolours.

But I do wonder about desirability of such a pale eyes, as the dark pigment protects the retina from UV rays I believe.

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Possibly, but it seems to me there must be different genes responsible for blue eyes in dogs. One is obviously associated with a general widespread lack of pigment (in high white dogs), whereas one (or possibly several) is not - as in huskies and those solid coloured whippets we have seen with blue eyes. I don't think the blue eyes in huskies would have been so prevalent if they made them more susceptible to snow blindness.

 

[Seraphina]

In Harlequin Great Danes the merles are more likely to produce albinos with 2 blue eyes who will go blind usually by the age of 6 months. 

Isn't that only when you double the merle gene? I think GD breeders generally only breed harlequin/merles non-harlequin/merles to avoid double merles, just like merle collies/shelties are only bred to tricolours.

But I do wonder about desirability of such a pale eyes, as the dark pigment protects the retina from UV rays I believe.

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Possibly, but it seems to me there must be different genes responsible for blue eyes in dogs. One is obviously associated with a general widespread lack of pigment (in high white dogs), whereas one (or possibly several) is not - as in huskies and those solid coloured whippets we have seen with blue eyes. I don't think the blue eyes in huskies would have been so prevalent if they made them more susceptible to snow blindness.

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I have never looked very deeply into the harlequin genetics, as i have never been tempted to breed them. My grandfather did and in those times all missmarks (including merles) had to be PTS, it was a regulation of the KC. But I do know the harlequin marking is caused by merle gene, which is dominant to the non-merle = full pigmented one.

Yes, I am sure that the pale eye in huskies is caused by a different genes, although I do not know much about these breeds, I really wouldn't want to speculate.

 

[Ridgesetter]

This is a bit long winded and may be boring to some so stop here if you haven't got time. :thumbsup:

I'm no geneticist (as you'll soon work out ) but my understanding of eye colour has always been that in MOST instances eye colour is separate from coat colour. I've never worried much about eye colour in whippets because it isn't an issue but the blue eye topic has got me all interested. I got my books out this morning and trying to simplify it, here's what Willis and Robinson say:

Blue eyes, regardless of which gene causes them, are the result of a lack of pigment mixed with blood which we see as blue. (Total loss of pigment is albino.)

Eye colour means the colour of the iris.

Eye colour and coat colour are controlled by two separate genes except where there is a modifying coat colour gene.

The gene for eye colour has incomplete dominance, therefore, normal dog iris is brown but polygenes control/modify the depth of colour (Pigment) which can vary from dog to dog, ie, dark brown to hazel to amber

The same colour eye can appear different because of coat colour and dark pigment around the eye rim.

Breeding light to light eyes doesn't produce dark eyes but breeding dark to dark can produce light eyes.

Chocolate/Liver (b) and Dilute (d) genes independently affect iris colour (less pigment so they appear lighter). Dilution gene (smokey grey colour) and Liver coat allele (chestnut, hazel to pale yellow).

The Merle (M) gene has a range of effects on eye colour as it does on coat colour.

In most instances, blue eyes are caused from:

albinotic alleles

merle gene

So I'm still confused as to why whippets exhibit the odd blue eyes. You would think the genes would control the colour of both eyes to be expressed the same and not just one eye blue. Reading the books, the d and b genes don't produce blue in any other breeds. There was a mention of a blue eye in Poodles in 1932 independent of coat colour which was a recessive and bred out.

Willis states "Many judges seem to be obsesses by eyes in that light-eyed dogs, regardless of other qualities, will be summarily dismissed from the ring. Eye-colour is basically aesthetic and it seems particularly futile to pay more attention to it than to some important structural and mental characteristics."

He further states "It cannot be overemphasised that insistence upon dark eyes is, in many instances, an attempt to seek the impossible. .... Several breed standards insist upon dark eyes and in doing so make some coat colours impossible to achieve. Such standards should be revised and their continued existence emphasises the dangers of allowing breeders, with no genetic understanding, free rein on issues they are not competent to decide. It is high time that all standards were examined by geneticists to eliminate such inconsistencies."

If you believe in this statement and Dr Willis' credentials, methinks the AKC Whippet standard should be revised either in coat or eye colour! :- "

Cheers