Select Just One Whippet

[playawhile]

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Hi!

Talking about critiques (we seem to have changed the subject completely in this thread). What I find refreshing about the FCI-way of doing it - the judge dictates a critique to a ring steward and after the dog is finished being judged the owner gets a copy. Hopefully this written critique will give you a hint as to why the judge did as he/she choose to do. Usually the critique tells both good things and things the judge did not like in my dog. Sometimes when reading the text from an English show report one gets frustrated as hardly ever anything negative is written. Often the text is full of "empty phrases" like: enjoyed his day out...... Why is it "no no" to actually say exactly what a judge thought??

I know that it would be impossible to have written critiques at English shows as it is to time consuming but a bit more honesty in the show reports would not hurt, would it??

Henrik Härling

 

[playawhile]

All this to say that I think you may have actually misread, or read more into the comment of the writer who mentioned the dark eye.  I don't think the writer was  saying it was desireable, or in keeping with the standard, as I am pretty sure the Irish and English standards are compatible.

I am sure I read more into the comment than was intended. Still, I don't see any harm in making this point clear for any novices (or American judges ) out there who might just also read it that way.

BUT  when Im judging , :- " eye colour comes well down the list    , but I might put a comment about `lovely dark eye` in my critique , cant SEE the problem with that  :lol:

Well, perhaps it should not be a problem, but it does send out the message that you find dark eyes desirable. If a sufficient number of judges send out the same message, I think there is a very real possibility it might affect some people's breeding decisions. Which I think it should not.

I personally prefer a slightly lighter eye. Were I a judge, would I compliment the lovely light eyes of a dog? Perhaps, to a handler/owner, but not in a written critique.

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WHY not ? Why would you want to breed a litter that could have a most beautiful bitch/dog who to you ( and lets be honest , we do breed for US, well I do ) isnt pleasing to look at . When you look at any animal ,or person for that matter the first thing you see is their face :b and if you arnt happy with what you see :- "

I know people who do like lighter eyes , but its as NINA said , some dont like Fawns or parti colours . I really cant see whats wrong with `lovely dark eyes` , same as putting `smart brindle` etc surely

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Hi!

I agree with JAX here. Isn't dog breeding in many ways an "ego trip". One of the fun parts of breeding dogs is to produce a type of dog that is pleasing to my eye (and hopefully others!!) within the standard. I think it's ok to try breeding dark eyes if one prefers that and I don't think that causes a problem when judging.

Personally, yes I prefer dark eyes with a mild expression but as I wrote earlier - I actually upset a judge when questioning that he penalised light eyes..... So if I was to judge I would not mind light eyes. I few years back I judged an open show for a whippet race club and best puppy was an odd eyed puppy with one blue and one brown eye. I was a bit hesitant at first but as the standard do not say anything about this “problem”. His expression was ok so therefore I did not mind putting him first.

Henrik Härling

 

[nina]

I think the difference is commenting on something like the eyes, which seem to suggest that the dog would have been placed differently if the eyes were darker (or lighter).  Personal likes and dislikes of points, which are immaterial to the breed, should only come to play part if the judge has to choose between 2 absolutely equal dogs.
And yes critiques can be misconstrued, just as everybody interprets the standard little bit differently, but therefore it is good if people do aproach the judge and ask what exactly did he/she mean.  Even if it is few weeks later, we should be able to email the judge and politely discuss the point you did not understand or disagree with.

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I agree that personal likes or dislikes should only come into play if the judge has to choose between 2 absolutely equal dogs. :thumbsup:

I also think it depends on how a certain comment is written, surely a judge could say about a number of dogs on the day "lovely dark eye" & not be insinuating anything more than they found the eye pleasing ?

Where as word it differently to say about one dog "would prefer a darker eye" & it has a whole different meaning & can be seen that perhaps the judge considers this a fault.

Same as "lovely feminine bitch", no one would question this BUT say "not the most feminine of bitches or "would prefer her slightly more feminine" & again it has a whole different meaning. I'm sure if this was commented on the owner again would be quite right to respond by saying well if my bitch is correct in every other way why has she been knocked for not being feminine enough, it does not state that a bitch has to be feminine in the standard.

I think in theory that being able to approach a judge & ask them to comment & explain their placing of your dog would be great ) BUT in practice i personally would never do it as i think a lot of people over here may see it differently & it be frowned upon. :- "

I remember many years ago an all rounder judging a breed for the first time & a long standing breeder of over 40 years approached him afterwards to ask him to comment why he had placed her dog where he had. Unfortunately he felt that he was being intimidated & refused to answer her saying "An exhibitor should never question a judges decision, read my critique when its done thats what its there for!" :unsure:

 

[quintessence]

This reminds me of a friend of mine (not a whippet exhibitor I hasten to add) who was bemoaning a recent show report on her young dog. The judge had made a comment on his hind movement not being too good, as she had often said this to me I asked what the problem was, well came the reply he didn't need to put it in the report, now everone knows, don't worry said I, everyone knows anyway. She laughed, and we are still great friends, I think!!!!

Jenny

 

[janfiers]

:thumbsup: Definitely the best whippet in my eyes is Ch. Nutshell of Nevedith. I had the pleasure of seeing her at home completely relaxed as well as in the show ring.

When she came to a show and it was time for her to go in the ring you could see her almost say "Showtime" never slacking or lacking.

One thing to consider about the best whippet is the influence they have on the breed either as a stud dog or brood bitch. Shelley for instance produced 3 UK champions and 4 overseas champions.

Looking through the Whippet manuals recently there are many (dogs in particular) who sired 10 plus champions - of the most well known affixes (oops sorry kennel names) eg. Laguna. Allgarth, Samarkands, Nevedith. How many dogs of recent times will be able to boast the same in years to come?

As for eyes, I totally agree with Jax, I personally don't like whippets with light eyes, but when judging this aspect of the overall exhibit, it enters the equation only if I am nit picking. Generally it doesn't as there are other features which will separate them.

PS. Not that it's today with Whippets but passed my Aghan Hound assessment this morning.

 

[Avalonia]

Henrik, a China blue eye obviously doesn't disqualify in FCI countries? Here in North America both the Canadian and American standards disqualify any whippet with a china blue eye.

Back in the early 1980s we actually purchased and owned a whippet bitch with a china blue eye that we rescued from a breeder who was going to quietly put her down rather than admit she had bred this problem (we now know from which American line this trait came from). We also bought her litter brother who was a monorchid male she was also going to put down because we could not see two perfectly healthy dogs being put down to hide their faults from the world. They were our second and third rescues long before we contemplated breeding.

Laura -- the blue and brown eyed girl -- became best friends with my Irish Setter Sheelagh, whom I was field trialing (I grew up with collies and English and Irish Setters), and they did everything together from eating, sleeping and playing to training to the gun for field. Laura became one of the best field dogs I have ever seen, flushing and retrieving pheasant and grouse with the best of the sporting dogs. You haven't lived till you have seen a whippet standing perfectly on point beside an Irish Setter, also perfectly on point, then teaming together on cue to flush the field.

Jack became a sworn enemy of squirrels and was a relentless hunter of those rodents. Each spring friends who owned a small island with a summer home in the St. Lawrence River accessible only by boat except in winter when vermin could cross via the frozen ice would borrow Jack for a weekend to rid their island of the squirrels. Laura and Jack rewarded us with long, healthy lives, both being nearly 15 when they died.

Lanny

 

[doris]

PS.  Not that it's today with Whippets but passed my Aghan Hound assessment this morning.

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that has never stopped anyone posting before (w00t) :lol:

well done anyway :cheers:

 

[dragonfly]

All this to say that I think you may have actually misread, or read more into the comment of the writer who mentioned the dark eye.  I don't think the writer was  saying it was desireable, or in keeping with the standard, as I am pretty sure the Irish and English standards are compatible.

I am sure I read more into the comment than was intended. Still, I don't see any harm in making this point clear for any novices (or American judges ) out there who might just also read it that way.

BUT  when Im judging , :- " eye colour comes well down the list    , but I might put a comment about `lovely dark eye` in my critique , cant SEE the problem with that  :lol:

Well, perhaps it should not be a problem, but it does send out the message that you find dark eyes desirable. If a sufficient number of judges send out the same message, I think there is a very real possibility it might affect some people's breeding decisions. Which I think it should not.

I personally prefer a slightly lighter eye. Were I a judge, would I compliment the lovely light eyes of a dog? Perhaps, to a handler/owner, but not in a written critique.

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WHY not ? Why would you want to breed a litter that could have a most beautiful bitch/dog who to you ( and lets be honest , we do breed for US, well I do ) isnt pleasing to look at . When you look at any animal ,or person for that matter the first thing you see is their face :b and if you arnt happy with what you see :- "

I know people who do like lighter eyes , but its as NINA said , some dont like Fawns or parti colours . I really cant see whats wrong with `lovely dark eyes` , same as putting `smart brindle` etc surely

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Hear hear ...........

When breeding for orselves we are free to choose whatever characteristics make a whippet beautiful in our eyes, and we all have our own personal feelings about colour, eyes and expression in the dogs we want to live with and take into the ring. Why shouldn't we have coats and eyes to suit ourselves.

Judging is a totally different matter and if eye colour is mentioned in a critique it leads the reader to believe that the judge has not judged according to the standard. In reality I would be surprised if a good breed specialist had put up a dog based on that characteristic even if they commented upon it.

Sadly from a non specialist it is not uncommon particularly at open shows. very irritating if your excellent specimen of the breed is passed over as a result of ignorance of the breed standard. One has to wonder if they have read a few critiques in the paper, seen eye colour mentioned and made the erroneous link, so perhaps judges should think before they write for that reason alone, and perhaps non specialists should read the standard with greater attention.

Cathie

 

[bardmand]

2 KC Standard as copied from The Kennel Club website

Eyes

Oval, bright, expression very alert.

As stated sveral times above - the colour level of dark/light relative to eye colour is NOT designated. Thus a simple comment such as typical expression which would be all the better with a darker eye

is just that - a comment.

Well, I am not sure which colour eye fit the description "bright and very alert" the better. Maybe it is because English is not my first language, but I know which of these two dogs I think look the more alert (both correct according to THEIR breed standard by the way):

I am not saying any eye colour should be given preference in the show ring, only that I really do not see how a darker eye could give a more "typical" expression (if "typical" is what is described in the standard).

 

[playawhile]

Hi!

I think this whippet has an very alert expression and her eyes are pitch black!! Am I wrong?? I have 5 whippets at home, all fawn with different amount of white. Two have blue pigmentation and three have black pigmentation. I really like all five of them and all of them have nice expressions but the bitch I am sending a photo of has the favourite expression to me.

To me the pharao hound expression is alert but if it was a whippet I woud not like it as it looks a bit "higly strung".....

Henrik Härling

 

[playawhile]

Henrik, a China blue eye obviously doesn't disqualify in FCI countries?  Here in North America both the Canadian and American standards disqualify any whippet with a china blue eye. 
Back in the early 1980s we actually purchased and owned a whippet bitch with a china blue eye that we rescued from a breeder who was going to quietly put her down rather than admit she had bred this problem (we now know from which American line this trait came from).  We also bought her litter brother who was a monorchid male she was also going to put down because we could not see two perfectly healthy dogs being put down to hide their faults from the world.  They were our second and third rescues long before we contemplated breeding. 

Laura -- the blue and brown eyed girl --  became best friends with my Irish Setter Sheelagh, whom I was field trialing (I grew up with collies and English and Irish Setters), and they did everything together from eating, sleeping and playing to training to the gun for field.  Laura became one of the best field dogs I have ever seen, flushing and retrieving pheasant and grouse with the best of the sporting dogs.  You haven't lived till you have seen a whippet standing perfectly on point beside an Irish Setter, also perfectly on point, then teaming together on cue to flush the field. 

Jack became a sworn enemy of squirrels and was a relentless hunter of those rodents.  Each spring friends who owned a small island with a summer home in the St. Lawrence River accessible only by boat except in winter when vermin could cross via the frozen ice would borrow Jack for a weekend to rid their island of the squirrels.  Laura and Jack rewarded us with long, healthy lives, both being nearly 15 when they died.

Lanny

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Hi!

I think that whippets with odd eyes are rarely shown here in Sweden and it's also very seldom that you actually here of any being born.

Henrik Härling

 

[bardmand]

Hi!
I think this whippet has an very alert expression and her eyes are pitch black!! Am I wrong?? I have 5 whippets at home, all fawn with different amount of white. Two have blue pigmentation and three have black pigmentation. I really like all five of them and all of them have nice expressions but the bitch I am sending a photo of has the favourite expression to me.

To me the pharao hound expression is alert but if it was a whippet I woud not like it as it looks a bit "higly strung".....

Henrik Härling

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She certainly has a lovely expression (and the contrast between her pale coloration and dark eyes is stunning!), but I am not sure her expression would be any less alert if her eyes were lighter. I guess the point I am trying to get across is that I do not think that the standard description of eyes and expression could be interpreted to favour dark eyes (which many other breed standards do). I have yet to encounter any stories about judges that favoured light-coloured eyes, but that would obviously be equally wrong.

Incidentally, my own whippet has fairly dark eyes as well (and IMHO a very nice expression):

 

[playawhile]

Hi!
I think this whippet has an very alert expression and her eyes are pitch black!! Am I wrong?? I have 5 whippets at home, all fawn with different amount of white. Two have blue pigmentation and three have black pigmentation. I really like all five of them and all of them have nice expressions but the bitch I am sending a photo of has the favourite expression to me.

To me the pharao hound expression is alert but if it was a whippet I woud not like it as it looks a bit "higly strung".....

Henrik Härling

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She certainly has a lovely expression (and the contrast between her pale coloration and dark eyes is stunning!), but I am not sure her expression would be any less alert if her eyes were lighter. I guess the point I am trying to get across is that I do not think that the standard description of eyes and expression could be interpreted to favour dark eyes (which many other breed standards do). I have yet to encounter any stories about judges that favoured light-coloured eyes, but that would obviously be equally wrong.

Incidentally, my own whippet has fairly dark eyes as well (and IMHO a very nice expression):

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I agree with you, dark eyes do not equel more alert expressions, on the contrary, I find whippets with lighter eyes to look more alert on many occasions. While inetracting with my own dogs at home I do prefer the dark eye.

 

[Karen]

I understand what Henrik means about the hound in the 2nd picture. Sometimes a paler eye gives an alert dog a wild expression. because you see the always dark pupil surrounded by a lighter iris and as the pupil shrinks to focus on the prey this spot becomes sharper looking.

I have no preference when judging, only looking at shape and position. my dogs have a mixture of colours but 'I' prefer a darker eye in my dogs

 

[Seraphina]

I do not think light eyes make dog to look more allert, just sort of startled (w00t) , I personally definitely prefer darker eyes

 

[Ridgesetter]

I'll put my hand up and say I bred a pup with a blue and dark brown eyes (from a bitch with really dark eyes). I was stunned as I'd never seen this or heard of it but when I spoke to a long time whippet breeder, the breeder admitted they had seen it on occasion. The owner of the sire didn't indicate that this had occurred in any of the sire's other litters. Anyway, I sold the boy and the new owners called him'Bowie' after David Bowie who had odd eyes.

Eye colour is something I'm personally looking at in our Breed Extension at the moment as I believe it is slanted to dark eyes. Owning mainly blue dilutes, I rarely enter under USA judges as their standard and what they are used to is dark eyes as many can't come to grips with anythinig not black. :angry:

It's a bit like judging Siberian Huskies. The do look odd and the expression is different, but once you're trained and judge a few dogs with odd eyes, 2 blue eyes, 2 brown eyes or wall eyes and any mixture, you start to bypass the colour and look for the set, shape and expression. The blue eye looks bigger and to some, a more startled look than the brown but it was explained to candidates that the pupil is larger and in the lighter colours, gives an illusion of being bigger. This same analogy applies to whippet coat colour as well - some colours look big / small or markings can give an illusion of straight / well angled.

What I think the whippet standard should say is that eyes should harmonise with the coat colour. In that I mean the eyes should never stand out but blend with the dog as a whole. Emphasis should be on shape and set just and colour should compliment the picture.

I'm sure many breeders in any breed would agree once you start breeding for one specific trait, ie dark eyes, you often start to get other problems, for example, small 'piggy' eyes.

Cheers

 

[chakrata]

What an interesting topic. I guess I'm entering a bit late into this topic..... however I have to say that having just been on a jaunt with Ms Molly and Ann Knight to the Hound Club in England and then to visit the fabulous Sobers Kennel in Rome.... plus.... my own sojourn to Sweden.... clearly there are many fabulous Whippets across the globe. I noticed that Barnesmore Galileo has been included amongst the selection of so many wonderful Whippets. Apart from his breed quality, this dog has fabulous character. I would like to throw a favourite Whippet of mine into the pool.... this Whippet bitch is the reason I now have traded my Basset Hounds and Pointers in for Whippets. I do not have a pic, but Cartman may... her name is Aust Ch Skyeway Movie Star..... a gorgeous Whippet Bitch.... oozed quality and type. I had an opportunity to judge her at my final Hound exam at an Open Show when she was about 7 months old.... I gave her Best in Group ... she then went on to Best In Show. I said to Cartman and Mrs Cartman "if ever you have another one like this.... can I have him/her" as luck would havr it about 10 yrs ago they did and here she is: Aust Cha Skyeway In Hollywood