Speying

[~whitecross whippets~]

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This is always an interesting topic.  I'd be really interested in what people would do in a couple of hypothetical situations. Here goes
1.  A family approach you looking for a puupy or young bitch.  They are experienced owners of Whippets and currently have a rescue dog , (neutered before they got him).  He is about 6 and because of his past history is not very good with dogs though fine with bitches.  Husband is a teacher and so has long holidays. Wife is at home all day. two great kids, 8 and 10.  They own a caravan and go away every holiday as they enjoy walking.  They would like to have the bitch spayed at an appropate age as they feel if she is in season when they are away the bitch would not be able to come out with them and enjoy the freedom she loves. It would mean either leaving her in kennels or not going away.  Would you let them have a bitch from you?

2.  You keep dogs and bitches indoors. At season time the bitch is kept apart from the dogs, she has had a litter and is now 6 and has finished her show career.  She is very attatched to you and hates being shut up seperatley when she has a season.  Would you have her spayed?

Like I said these are just hypothetical situations, I'm just curious as to what you would decide

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1. No. I will not sell a bitch to be spayed just for their convenience, however good a home it may seem.

2. No. You must think about these sort of things when you plan to keep dogs and bitches. All my Whippets are indoors and they are separated when the bitches are in season but not 'locked away' somewhere away from their normal surroundings. If there is only one bitch in season, another one will constantly keep her company.

I would say here that I agree (OMG not again!!! (w00t) ) with Dawn and that is, if a bitch requires surgery for the good of her health then fine but NOT just for the convenience of the owner or for prophylactic (allegedly) reasons.

If I did have an accidental mating and puppies resulted, they would be treated in entirely the same manner as planned puppies ............. or put in a bucket.

[SIZE=14pt]NO ONLY JOKING[/SIZE]

Well, unless they were fawn.

And why is it that Dawn and I are insane for standing by what we believe. We may well be insane but we are allowed an opinion as well as those who 'do rescue'.

And if rescue are finding such good homes for their dogs, why do they all need to be neutered?????

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and for the record i dont "do rescue" and i do still think it is insane to specify that anyone who buys a pup from you cannot neuter it!!! in fact i think it is irresponsible!

are they allowed to feed them crap food or leave them in kennels or go out to work or do you monitor that too?

you should be concerned about how much they will be loved and cared for not concentrate on your extreme views.....you are entitled to your opinion but that is all it is...

 

[dessie]

i have cared for HUNDREDS of dogs who have been spayed and i know for a FACT they recover within a couple of days.....but advice against spaying seems to be being given by people who have never even spayed their pets yet they know the terrible trauma it causes!

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Very sweeping statement!! And actually, thanks for asking, but I have had spayed bitches and castrated dogs but they were done for MEDICAL reasons

 

[ja jumper]

This is always an interesting topic.  I'd be really interested in what people would do in a couple of hypothetical situations. Here goes
1.  A family approach you looking for a puupy or young bitch.  They are experienced owners of Whippets and currently have a rescue dog , (neutered before they got him).  He is about 6 and because of his past history is not very good with dogs though fine with bitches.  Husband is a teacher and so has long holidays. Wife is at home all day. two great kids, 8 and 10.  They own a caravan and go away every holiday as they enjoy walking.  They would like to have the bitch spayed at an appropate age as they feel if she is in season when they are away the bitch would not be able to come out with them and enjoy the freedom she loves. It would mean either leaving her in kennels or not going away.  Would you let them have a bitch from you?

2.  You keep dogs and bitches indoors. At season time the bitch is kept apart from the dogs, she has had a litter and is now 6 and has finished her show career.  She is very attatched to you and hates being shut up seperatley when she has a season.  Would you have her spayed?

Like I said these are just hypothetical situations, I'm just curious as to what you would decide

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1. No. I will not sell a bitch to be spayed just for their convenience, however good a home it may seem.

2. No. You must think about these sort of things when you plan to keep dogs and bitches. All my Whippets are indoors and they are separated when the bitches are in season but not 'locked away' somewhere away from their normal surroundings. If there is only one bitch in season, another one will constantly keep her company.

I would say here that I agree (OMG not again!!! (w00t) ) with Dawn and that is, if a bitch requires surgery for the good of her health then fine but NOT just for the convenience of the owner or for prophylactic (allegedly) reasons.

If I did have an accidental mating and puppies resulted, they would be treated in entirely the same manner as planned puppies ............. or put in a bucket.

[SIZE=14pt]NO ONLY JOKING[/SIZE]

Well, unless they were fawn.

And why is it that Dawn and I are insane for standing by what we believe. We may well be insane but we are allowed an opinion as well as those who 'do rescue'.

And if rescue are finding such good homes for their dogs, why do they all need to be neutered?????

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and for the record i dont "do rescue" and i do still think it is insane to specify that anyone who buys a pup from you cannot neuter it!!! in fact i think it is irresponsible!

are they allowed to feed them crap food or leave them in kennels or go out to work or do you monitor that too?

you should be concerned about how much they will be loved and cared for not concentrate on your extreme views.....you are entitled to your opinion but that is all it is...

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i also agree when your pup is sold you can do what ever with your pup as its been sold on , breeders should not think they have the right to tell others whats right or wrong as everyone has their own views ,they have got the best homes for the puppies so leave it to others to make their own choices,its like if you bought a puppy to breed from and the breeder said your not to breed her,shes only sold as a pet, its your choice when youve paid your money the breeder has no rights over the dog as shes sold her

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

but dogs do develop behavioral problems where the answer lies in them being neutered

What utter rubbish!!!!!!

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really...so some dogs never develop sexual related behavioural problems...what planet do you live on then?

 

[Lynn-Alexandria]

I have to say that when it comes to breeders who have puppy contracts i would be more inclined to buy from them. It shows that they actually care for their dogs and will not just sell to the first person who walks in deciding that they want a dog. When your dog has pups you want the best for those pups, your dog is like your child and those little pups are a part of your dog. I admire breeders who have puppy contracts, you find that they are more approachable if a problem ever arises with the dog that you may be unsure about.

It is important that breeders become more careful about who they give their dogs out to. It means that the chances of the dog ending up in a rescue centre a few months down the line are very low.

 

[mazza]

How do u know she would have had moody seasons and phantom pregancies?

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I will never Know, yes she may have been lucky and not had any problems,

but I am now 100% certain she will not suffer from any of the conditions arising from being intact.

 

[Lynn-Alexandria]

but dogs do develop behavioral problems where the answer lies in them being neutered

What utter rubbish!!!!!!

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really...so some dogs never develop sexual related behavioural problems...what planet do you live on then?

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Sexual related problems in dogs do not need to result in the dog being neutered...it results in a trainer being called to help with owners overcome the problem with training methods. Again i say patience and time is what it takes rather than surgery.

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

I have to say that when it comes to breeders who have puppy contracts i would be more inclined to buy from them.  It shows that they actually care for their dogs and will not just sell to the first person who walks in deciding that they want a dog.  When your dog has pups you want the best for those pups, your dog is like your child and those little pups are a part of your dog.  I admire breeders who have puppy contracts, you find that they are more approachable if a problem ever arises with the dog that you may be unsure about. 
It is important that breeders become more careful about who they give their dogs out to.  It means that the chances of the dog ending up in a rescue centre a few months down the line are very low.

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i am an excellent owner actually and my puppy didnt come with a contract and my breeder knew that she was going to a good home or he wouldnt have sold her to me....he actually would have preferred a working home but he put his views to one side and cared more about the love and care she would get from me...i think that makes him a very sensible breeder!

 

[Lynn-Alexandria]

In my view what makes a sensible breeder is someone who actually cares for the breed of dog they are breeding. They know everything they can find about the breed and they question those buying their pups extensively. To just hand over a pup to anyone who walks in the door with cash in their hand should be banned...it is breeders who hand over their pups to just anyone whos pups end up in rescue centres and breed rescues. And most of the time the dogs that I am called on to help because the owner had no idea how to train the dog.

 

[Strike Whippets]

I really wish I hadn't just read through this thread (hope your feeling better though Dawn :flowers: ) ........Miya's being speyed next Friday for medical reasons, as she has Polycythemia Vera, and her seasons disrupt her bloods .......she has also started having phantoms and last time she had to have AB's due to a high temp and fluid in the womb .........My Dob x has to go in with her just in case she needs a blood transfussion during the op (which is a fare possibility)   .......Either way having or not having her speyed is life threatening for her    ..........All this aside though, IMHO its up to each and every owner as to wether they spey/neuter THEIR dog or not ...........Everyone has their dog's best interests at heart ..........It never occured to me to ask the owners of my last litter if they were going to have them done......I was just glad that the pup's had found such good homes ........What really turns me is people who have a pedigree pup, who then later breed from her not knowing lines, breeding etc ........Then they don't even keep a pup  ......To me that would be more mortifying than finding one of my owners had speyed one of my pup's  ........but as I said .....this is JMHO 

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Good luck with Miya Hannah :luck:

If its any consolation I would have done exactly the same thing if it was one of mine.

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Thank's Dawn :cheers: ......

 

[Seraphina]

What worries me most is the claim that it is necessary to spay bitch in order to save her from pyometra and mammary tumors. Over the years I have had many bitches, all but 2 entire all their lives, none got pyometra or cancer. What more; breast cancer tumors (at least in people) are not all estrogen sensitive. If that applies to dogs it would not would not necessarily help if the bitch was spayed before her first season . Research on breast cancer causes in people is far from conclusive - some indicated The Pill increases incidents, others that it reduced them etc. As far as I know there has not been done really good long term survey in dogs to see how prevelant these problems are.

Pyometra is a nasty thing, but how often it ocurs? I never had it in my bitches and the one I know who had it at the age of 1 year, was spayed because of it and now, ages 2 1/2 is incontinent. To say that older bitches get incontinent regardless is also not quite honest; lets say if a spayed bitch becomes incontinent at 8 (only half way through her life) it is quite possible that if left entire she may have not get this problem until much later.

Hormones released by the ovaries and testicles affect the whole body in many ways which we do not completely understand. I prefer to interfere as little as possible.

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

In my view what makes a sensible breeder is someone who actually cares for the breed of dog they are breeding.  They know everything they can find about the breed and they question those buying their pups extensively.  To just hand over a pup to anyone who walks in the door with cash in their hand should be banned...it is breeders who hand over their pups to just anyone whos pups end up in rescue centres and breed rescues.  And most of the time the dogs that I am called on to help because the owner had no idea how to train the dog.

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do you not think their is a middle ground? a breeder should care whether their dog will be loved and cared for....but a person who enforces their extreme views on someone is missing very good homes and a breeder who hands a dog over to anyone who hands the cash over is also wrong but there is a middle ground as well...i wouldnt breed my dog because i could not give them away and gypsy is the first dog i have ever paid for...i have owned 8 rescue dogs in my life and find it just as frustrating as you do!

 

[Lynn-Alexandria]

There could very well be a middle ground. But the amount of dogs who are ending up in rescue centres and breed rescues needs to be cut down. And it is my opinion that breeders can vet those taking their dogs to make show they know exactly what they are taking on.

 

[BeeJay]

Firstly good luck with Miya Hannah. Try not to worry too much about her. You are doing the right thing and you've got great vets. :thumbsup:

Secondly now I'm confused here.

> i have cared for HUNDREDS of dogs who have been spayed

What kind of job do you do Whitecross whippets that you have cared for hundreds of bitches who have been speyed?

 

[Seraphina]

Also, I think we need to separate this discussion into 2, firstly how invasive is the surgery and second the long term impact - positive or negative.

I have also cared for many animals (mainly cats) after they were desexed, when I was helping my vet (friend). And I was always amazed how quickly they recovered after the op. It was not unusual for female kitten to run around and play as soon as her legs stopped to wobble.

But long term effects are lot more difficult to judge.

I suspect most research was done by people who advocate desexing. Lets face it there is a very strong pro-desexing loby, especially in the USA and the vets are not exactly going to oppose it, are they? And of-course, it is a sure way to reduce unwanted pups being born, so ordinary people are not going to object.

All this is rather academic for us here in Australia as from next year ALL dogs have to be desexed (by some ridiculous early age), unless owned by a registered breeder.

 

[BeeJay]

Wow that's interesting Seraphina. Bit of a nanny state move that.

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

Firstly good luck with Miya Hannah.  Try not to worry too much about her.  You are doing the right thing and you've got great vets. :thumbsup:
Secondly now I'm confused here.

> i have cared for HUNDREDS of dogs who have been spayed

What kind of job do you do Whitecross whippets that you have cared for hundreds of bitches who have been speyed?

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i used to work as a veterinary nurse

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

There could very well be a middle ground.  But the amount of dogs who are ending up in rescue centres and breed rescues needs to be cut down.  And it is my opinion that breeders can vet those taking their dogs to make show they know exactly what they are taking on.

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i agree but how does a breeder that insists their dog is not spayed going to help unborn pups being born and then put in rescue...which then go to new homes with behavioural problems...im confused...that seems like a contradiction?

 

[Lynn-Alexandria]

Breeders who insist that their dogs are not spayed then explain to the new owners on how to prevent such measures. I am not saying that accidents dont happen, but new owners will need to be aware on how to deal with their bitch when she comes into season.

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

Breeders who insist that their dogs are not spayed then explain to the new owners on how to prevent such measures.  I am not saying that accidents dont happen, but new owners will need to be aware on how to deal with their bitch when she comes into season.

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as i have said before.... i agree in a perfect world it would be lovely.......but i dont live there! and neither do most people!