Stud Dogs

[chelynnah]

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Temperament and Health of equal importance in the top spot followed closely by conformation. All three are of equal importance to me, but as all puppies would be pets first and foremost my primary concern is temperament and health. Of course conformation is equally, but I'd rather end up with a conformation fault than either of the other two. So yes, I would start off my search looking for a dog who conformationally complements my bitch, but if health or temperament (either in the dog or lines) is dodgy then I'd go elsewhere.

Re size - I include that in conformation and for me personally I feel it is an important part of conformation. We're breeding whippets, not greyhounds or IG's.

 

[jayp]

Temperament and Health of equal importance in the top spot followed closely by conformation. All three are of equal importance to me, but as all puppies would be pets first and foremost my primary concern is temperament and health. Of course conformation is equally, but I'd rather end up with a conformation fault than either of the other two. So yes, I would start off my search looking for a dog who conformationally complements my bitch, but if health or temperament (either in the dog or lines) is dodgy then I'd go elsewhere.
Re size - I include that in conformation and for me personally I feel it is an important part of conformation. We're breeding whippets, not greyhounds or IG's.

Good post :thumbsup:

 

[JAX]

Complement: Something which completes whole: full number, complete set or provision:

Compliment: expression or implication of praise.

/quote]

well if he dosnt tell my girl how beautiful she is I wouldnt let him mate her :thumbsup:

Picky lot arnt you :clown:

 

[liza]

zak told katie he loved her but she hasent seeen him since

 

[~Annie~]

thought the studs that get used most ie top stud dog were used because they had been campaigned succesfully in other words "won alot" breeders then used them to try and replicate that success, the main drive for show breeders is to win

It doesnt mean to say that the top stud dog is the best dog for your bitch, the best dog to use is one that best compliments your bitch.

The top stud dog may have the fault which your bitch has, so not the right dog to use.

If the best dog for your bitch, happens to be the top stud dog then thats just a bonus. :thumbsup:

This should be the same for all activities in Whippets(racing, working, show etc)

I agree a stud dog may be the "flavour of the moment" but it doesn't mean he will necessarily suit every bitch.

You have to research in depth to bring out and improve the qualities you want whilst retaining the bitches' good points and most of all avoid doubling up on any faults

At the same time not loosing sight of the breed standard for size etc.

Sorry, slightly off topic, but all this talk of 'sire of the moment' ... just wondering how many pups folk think it's reasonable for a dog to sire in its lifetime given the impact that can have on the gene pool and in turn on temperament/health/conformation, etc. etc.

 

[chelynnah]

temperament, prey drive, lack of injury, size a good mouth, tenacity, obedience, oh bugger I was talking about a real whippet not a 50p rossette chaser (w00t)

Now play nice! :unsure: There's no need to be insulting, it's a good topic and I'd hate to see it degenerate.

 

[quintessence]

Good question Themetalchicken. I personally think there ought to be a maximum number of litters a stud dog can sire each year. Stud dog owners have as much responsibility for producing puppies as the owners of bitches. I wonder how many people could tell you how many puppies their dog has sired off the top of their head without looking it up or working it out.

Jenny

 

[~Annie~]

I recently had someone brag that their whippet had sired 50 pups already this year, which seemed a tad excessive to me ... at that rate if the dog were at stud for just 6 years you'd be talking a total of 400 pups ... I think if I were choosing a stud dog that although obviously compatibility with the bitch, temperament, health and conformation would be enormously important I'd also be looking at how many pups the dog had sired or would be likely to sire.

 

[jok]

Temperament and Health of equal importance in the top spot followed closely by conformation. All three are of equal importance to me, but as all puppies would be pets first and foremost my primary concern is temperament and health. Of course conformation is equally, but I'd rather end up with a conformation fault than either of the other two. So yes, I would start off my search looking for a dog who conformationally complements my bitch, but if health or temperament (either in the dog or lines) is dodgy then I'd go elsewhere.
Re size - I include that in conformation and for me personally I feel it is an important part of conformation. We're breeding whippets, not greyhounds or IG's.

Good post :thumbsup:

I agree with this post Wendy and it sums up what myself and Rach think too :thumbsup:

 

[starswift]

maybe zac and katie arent meant to be,things happen for a reason maybe its fate

 

[meeka123]

To quote the KC standard -
"a balanced combination of muscular power and strength with elegance and grace of outline. Built for speed and work. All forms of exaggeration should be avoided"

ie fit for purpose

i was at a show recently and a very small percentage fitted the above, very sad when you look at some of noble working breeds this country has perfected for purpose to be ruined by trophy hunters

below taken from -

http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm

in working dogs, utility is beauty, and "beauty is as beauty does."

E.L. Hagedoorn, a Dutch consulting geneticist to dog breed societies around the world, believed the show ring would ruin working dog breeds, and time has proven him right. As he noted in his 1939 book:

"In the production of economically useful animals, the show ring is more of a menace than an aid to breeding. Once fancy points are introduced into the standard of perfection, the breeders will give more attention to those easily judged qualities than to the more important qualities that do not happen to be of such a nature that we can evaluate them at shows. Showing has nothing to do with utility at all, it is simply a competitive game."

so would you say that working shows at say game fairs produce better quality winners as the judges are using different criteria when judging ie the dogs working ability not its conformation?

No, its not possible to judge working ability at a show it is only possible to judge "fit for purpose"

ok so would you say that at game fairs 'fit for purpose dogs' are chosen more so than at beauty shows ie dog shows,the reason im asking is i attended a few game fairs this year for the first time and i was surprised at some of the judging.dogs with undershot mouths winning, dogs with slipping patellas etc etc

 

[masta]

To quote the KC standard -
"a balanced combination of muscular power and strength with elegance and grace of outline. Built for speed and work. All forms of exaggeration should be avoided"

ie fit for purpose

i was at a show recently and a very small percentage fitted the above, very sad when you look at some of noble working breeds this country has perfected for purpose to be ruined by trophy hunters

below taken from -

http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm

in working dogs, utility is beauty, and "beauty is as beauty does."

E.L. Hagedoorn, a Dutch consulting geneticist to dog breed societies around the world, believed the show ring would ruin working dog breeds, and time has proven him right. As he noted in his 1939 book:

"In the production of economically useful animals, the show ring is more of a menace than an aid to breeding. Once fancy points are introduced into the standard of perfection, the breeders will give more attention to those easily judged qualities than to the more important qualities that do not happen to be of such a nature that we can evaluate them at shows. Showing has nothing to do with utility at all, it is simply a competitive game."

so would you say that working shows at say game fairs produce better quality winners as the judges are using different criteria when judging ie the dogs working ability not its conformation?

No, its not possible to judge working ability at a show it is only possible to judge "fit for purpose"

ok so would you say that at game fairs 'fit for purpose dogs' are chosen more so than at beauty shows ie dog shows,the reason im asking is i attended a few game fairs this year for the first time and i was surprised at some of the judging.dogs with undershot mouths winning, dogs with slipping patellas etc etc

"Beauty shows"?? - should'nt matter if a whippet is shown at Crufts or the Midland game fair, to quote the standard again === "a balanced combination of muscular power and strength with elegance and grace of outline. Built for speed and work. All forms of exaggeration should be avoided" if ALL breeders bred to that standard ALL whippets would be "fit for purpose

 

[JAX]

temperament, prey drive, lack of injury, size a good mouth, tenacity, obedience, oh bugger I was talking about a real whippet not a 50p rossette chaser (w00t)

you breed the type of whippet YOU want and we `show` folk will breed the type we want .

Mine win BIS at shows and still catch rabbits , squrriels and Crows . Could yours win a best in show ?

If you dont like what you read , then dont look in the Show section ,

Thankyou

 

[chelynnah]

ok guys - lets not go any further down the show v working route please. Only insult and flaming lies there and we've all been there before. The original question (and subsequent ones about the dog du jour) are really interesting ones and it would be nice if we could stick to discussing those points and not get sucked into the usual side debate please :thumbsup: .

Wendy

 

[masta]

temperament, prey drive, lack of injury, size a good mouth, tenacity, obedience, oh bugger I was talking about a real whippet not a 50p rossette chaser (w00t)

you breed the type of whippet YOU want and we `show` folk will breed the type we want .

Mine win BIS at shows and still catch rabbits , squrriels and Crows . Could yours win a best in show ?

If you dont like what you read , then dont look in the Show section ,

Thankyou

there shouldnt be a "you" and "we" it should be about the breed and the standard, all my dogs fit the standard but they sure as hell would'nt win diddley squat at a KC show and im sure a high percent of the dogs at those shows would'nt last a full day in the field with mine

 

[liza]

temperament, prey drive, lack of injury, size a good mouth, tenacity, obedience, oh bugger I was talking about a real whippet not a 50p rossette chaser (w00t)

you breed the type of whippet YOU want and we `show` folk will breed the type we want .

Mine win BIS at shows and still catch rabbits , squrriels and Crows . Could yours win a best in show ?

If you dont like what you read , then dont look in the Show section ,

Thankyou

there shouldnt be a "you" and "we" it should be about the breed and the standard, all my dogs fit the standard but they sure as hell would'nt win diddley squat at a KC show and im sure a high percent of the dogs at those shows would'nt last a full day in the field with mine

i agree we should breed to the standard but we all choose to do diffrent things with our dogs some like to show some like to race and some like to work we shouldnt knock a person for what he / she wants to do with their dogs

i have breed two dogs who have gone for racing and done very well and one i have bred does work and is very good we can breed dual purpose whippets i have a dog i dont show but he is a realy good worker

so lets stop all this bickering i put this post on about stud dogs

 

[Mark Roberts]

had a call from a lad a few days back who had an 8 month old pup bought from the wigan area that was already 23"

 

[DarrenG]

its impossible for a judge at a game fair to pick the best worker, also game fairs nowadays dont have many judges who have working experience.A worker isnt a dog that catches an occassional rabbit, a worker is a dog who can mark , quarter, find rabbits etc where ordinary dogs wouldnt, a worker knows what lamps are, what fences are, that is in tune with the handler, recently I saw someone on FB bragging about catching their 500th rabbit on the lamp in 2 and a bit seasons, lets be honest we all know thats a paltry figure!

If you want an outright show dog you use a show dog that has proven its self in the ring, but just because it has CCs is it really the best dog?What you have to ask yourself in the show ring has the dog justly got its title, was any bias involved in choosing, was any allegiances formed, etc etc you all know the arguements.I am sure you all know dogs that you feel have been unfairly over looked, but if this dog never won a title would you use it or not?In working dogs most bitch owners tend to go out and see the dog working first, the dog proves its self in the field infront of the bitch owners, where you can see if the dog IS fit for purpose.TBH most show dogs I have seen dont even appear to be fit, let alone fit for purpose the exception being Debs dog, he is a dog I would love to get my hands on for a season as theres something about him that draws me to him(Otto),

anyway IMO which is usually hated here if breeding solely for show maybe a dog should be at stud for a year, then removed for 2yrs to give his offspring time to develop and mature to see if they meet the standard the show world requires, if they do then put him back at stud and leave him at stud.

In the working world the pups will be entered the following winter and believe you me if they turn out crap the world and THL would know about it and people would stop using the dog anyway

btw I saw a great T Shirt the other day it said

The Kennel Club would be Darwins worst nightmare :wacko:

 

[liza]

what i would like is for all stud dogs from the age of 18 months is to be health checked and d n a profiled and all bitches to be health checked before mating thats my opinion

 

[masta]

temperament, prey drive, lack of injury, size a good mouth, tenacity, obedience, oh bugger I was talking about a real whippet not a 50p rossette chaser (w00t)

you breed the type of whippet YOU want and we `show` folk will breed the type we want .

Mine win BIS at shows and still catch rabbits , squrriels and Crows . Could yours win a best in show ?

If you dont like what you read , then dont look in the Show section ,

Thankyou

there shouldnt be a "you" and "we" it should be about the breed and the standard, all my dogs fit the standard but they sure as hell would'nt win diddley squat at a KC show and im sure a high percent of the dogs at those shows would'nt last a full day in the field with mine

i agree we should breed to the standard but we all choose to do diffrent things with our dogs some like to show some like to race and some like to work we shouldnt knock a person for what he / she wants to do with their dogs

i have breed two dogs who have gone for racing and done very well and one i have bred does work and is very good we can breed dual purpose whippets i have a dog i dont show but he is a realy good worker

so lets stop all this bickering i put this post on about stud dogs

No bickering, it is called discussion you posted re stud dogs and everyone has responded re the subject, it is an open forum

i have witnessed many show bred whippets that are excellent workers/racers (their purpose)