Stud Dogs

[liza]

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Maybe she just wanted to start a good discussion. Too bad it started to head down the usual route. If it can get back on track I think it's a good talking point, and there's been many good posts on it (if you can sort through the other stuff).
Maybe she's aware of that fact that being in the breed 30 years doesn't mean there's nothing left to learn from each other, no matter how long any of us has been in.

It would be nice if posts could be discussed on their own merit rather than trying to look for ulterior motives. The one-upmanship doesn't just happen between the different disciplines - it happens within them too

yes i have been in dogs for over 40 years but we do learn thing every day about our own breed and other breeds and we do have our own opinions on what we are looking for in a dog / bitch for show and what sort of stud dog we want to use on our girls i choose a dog for size and yes it did work but it could have gone either way you never know what you will get when using a stud dog no matter how good he is or how good your bitch is i think its just luck

when i am looking for a stud dog i look at what my bitch needs to improve on say shoulders so itry and find a dog with very good shoulder placement he must have a sound temprement in my case i needed to bring the size down my girl has the right conformation but she is upto size so i had a look around and came across zak and i used him we had a litter of 10 and only two were over sized they have taken after mum on her conformation but taken after dad on the size mum and dad have super temprements and that has come out in the pups i dont look at colour no dog is a bad colour

 

[JAX]

Here we go AGAIN!!! it is not just show people that breed!!!!

You are quite right Tracy . just look at a copy of the breed supplliment and I bet you well more than 60% or more are from either `pet folk or racing `, there are so many litters being bred from dogs Ive never heard of , and having been in showing whippets over 25 yearsI feel I know alot of names.

Ive nothing against racing /coursing bred whippets . I feel as passionate about racing Greyhounds and what they have done to that breed for showing , so i Know where you are coming from DarrenG , but I dont go on the greyhound forum and have a go at them at every opportunity. Its all down to individual tastes IMO :*

 

[DarrenG]

the metal chicken

stamina is something that is how long is a piece of string?

I have seen your dogs lure course and some others, and heard people say things like 3 runs this afternoon what stamina, but at Malton I timed mny of the runs, the longest being 22 secs so 3 runs would be 1 min 6 secs!But these dogs were blowing like a set of bellows and taking a long time to get there tongues back in

here on the fens we expect 3 or 4 runs from the dogs if they are retrieving hares we have recently been timing them and we expect each attempt to last over 2 mins now, very often going over 3 mins

however ......on rabbits if the conditions are right we would expect to run 50 rabbits(lamping) and catch around 25-30 each of these lasting around 20secs but a lot more energy draining that LC (not a dig) for the dog, now through winter my dogs and many others like them do this many days a week.

stamina for a successfull LC dog is very different for a working dog

take for instance Parkstone Take A Chance, an ok dog in his sphere came to my father in law as a pet (and a better dog for an elderly gent you couldnt find) he approx once a week accompanies us yet this dog you could set a watch by , 40secs running and he jacks, in those 40secs he busts a gut trying but he only has approx 3 runs like that in him and then just doesnt want to know, and the very next day he is stiff and sore.

For a good LC dog, the way I see it is you want a slowish racing dog, thats not to bright, but as far as racing dogs go lots of stamina(not compared to most dogs in the working field) because too fast a dog would over run the turn and too clever a dog and it runs cunning and a dog that has at least 3 or four 25 second runs in it.

For work I would pick show dogs over racing dogs every time AT THE MOMENT as racing dogs I believe have been to selectively bred for that short burst and are incredibly thick.

Anyway how does the saying go?

Theres always an exception that proves the rule

As for type l and type ll I googled your txt

 

[~Annie~]

We're not disagreeing with each other DarrenG ... I simply said that in the context of a debate about what to look for in a show sire I'd still want stamina, and tried to explain why that is important to me and why in my personal opinion the potential for stamina is in the breeding (even if all sorts of other factors also come into play, a fact I assumed was self evident).

As for you googling my text ... yup, I googled to check my facts, which you will find came from a handful of academic papers, references to which I'll be happy to provide.

You have seen my whippets lure course once, in fact you have seen my only mature lure cousing dog (who is not racing bred but working x show) run twice before being pulled out with a knocked toe. Personally I would not think that enough to judge any dog on, but then wouldn't life be boring if we all thought the same way

the metal chicken
stamina is something that is how long is a piece of string?

I have seen your dogs lure course and some others, and heard people say things like 3 runs this afternoon what stamina, but at Malton I timed mny of the runs, the longest being 22 secs so 3 runs would be 1 min 6 secs!But these dogs were blowing like a set of bellows and taking a long time to get there tongues back in

here on the fens we expect 3 or 4 runs from the dogs if they are retrieving hares we have recently been timing them and we expect each attempt to last over 2 mins now, very often going over 3 mins

however ......on rabbits if the conditions are right we would expect to run 50 rabbits(lamping) and catch around 25-30 each of these lasting around 20secs but a lot more energy draining that LC (not a dig) for the dog, now through winter my dogs and many others like them do this many days a week.

stamina for a successfull LC dog is very different for a working dog

take for instance Parkstone Take A Chance, an ok dog in his sphere came to my father in law as a pet (and a better dog for an elderly gent you couldnt find) he approx once a week accompanies us yet this dog you could set a watch by , 40secs running and he jacks, in those 40secs he busts a gut trying but he only has approx 3 runs like that in him and then just doesnt want to know, and the very next day he is stiff and sore.

For a good LC dog, the way I see it is you want a slowish racing dog, thats not to bright, but as far as racing dogs go lots of stamina(not compared to most dogs in the working field) because too fast a dog would over run the turn and too clever a dog and it runs cunning and a dog that has at least 3 or four 25 second runs in it.

For work I would pick show dogs over racing dogs every time AT THE MOMENT as racing dogs I believe have been to selectively bred for that short burst and are incredibly thick.

Anyway how does the saying go?

Theres always an exception that proves the rule

As for type l and type ll I googled your txt

 

[DarrenG]

you need a chill pill TMC I wasnt knocking you lol all I was trying to point out is stamina was something that no one will agree on or could agree on, and it doesnt matter what dog you used non of the dogs there ran for more than 22 secs and all were blowing hard,these dogs in that condition physically wouldnt be able to cope with 6hrs hard lamping in rough weather, I was trying to be sincere in my last post, and most working dogs would lose as I no doubt a good many of them would run cunning even after just watching.

 

[~Annie~]

you need a chill pill TMC I wasnt knocking you lol all I was trying to point out is stamina was something that no one will agree on or could agree on, and it doesnt matter what dog you used non of the dogs there ran for more than 22 secs and all were blowing hard,these dogs in that condition physically wouldnt be able to cope with 6hrs hard lamping in rough weather, I was trying to be sincere in my last post, and most working dogs would lose as I no doubt a good many of them would run cunning even after just watching.

Not mine. Not saying he didn't have his tongue out, but no way was he "blowing hard". Trouble is I can't win here ... answer you and be told I need a chill pill, or let your comments stand and have others think my dog comes back knackered after every run on the lure. Luckily plenty of people have seen him run and know that's not the case.

 

[whippetfan]

whippet fan I agree with most of what you have written except this
A dog that is over muscled (starting to be a bit of an issue with 'chunky' dogs) will overheat sprinting and lack the flexibility to turn and corner.

I live here on the fens you need a muscular dog to have the strength to pull its self through the turns, it needs muscle to cope with the strength needed to drive through the plough or the drilled land, I let the dogs out in the morning and there is often a hare or two in the garden , and see a lot of coursing, we also get to go on land the day after hare shoots, in order to look for the possible injured hares, and dogs without muscle never seem to have more then 1 or 2 runs in them.

Also regarding the overheating, I believe you are wrong there, as we all know panting is the dogs way of cooling down, all dogs pant, but (and I am talking working here) a dog develops more muscle the fitter it is gotten(to a point) now give me a very well put together show dog that is known to chase rabbits and a fit(muscular) non descript whippet that is also known to chase rabbits(I am not talking about catching just chasing) and they are both allowed to run together on the same rabbits, then the latter whippet will have its tongue away quicker than the former, it will also probably go on longer. jmo

Darren there's muscled and there's incorrectly muscled. I'm not talking about fitness or racing condition but muscle type. Whippets generally have long lean muscle, not short bulky muscle like a Stafford or similar. Its also like comparing a racing thoroughbred with a chunky cob. Doesn't matter how much work you give a sighthound, you shouldn't be able to make it chunky.

My dogs see rabbits most mornings and the odd hare. We also see a lot of those big Australian hares that jump on their hind legs but I don't allow my boy to chase these. :unsure:

 

[DarrenG]

you need a chill pill TMC I wasnt knocking you lol all I was trying to point out is stamina was something that no one will agree on or could agree on, and it doesnt matter what dog you used non of the dogs there ran for more than 22 secs and all were blowing hard,these dogs in that condition physically wouldnt be able to cope with 6hrs hard lamping in rough weather, I was trying to be sincere in my last post, and most working dogs would lose as I no doubt a good many of them would run cunning even after just watching.

Not mine. Not saying he didn't have his tongue out, but no way was he "blowing hard". Trouble is I can't win here ... answer you and be told I need a chill pill, or let your comments stand and have others think my dog comes back knackered after every run on the lure. Luckily plenty of people have seen him run and know that's not the case.

ok then let me re phrase it

every dog that ran the lure that day was blowing extremely hard compared to most working whippets that I have seen , infact TMC I would like to extend an invitation to you to come spend 5 or 6 hrs lamping with us, then maybe we will both have a better understanding of what each other means :thumbsup:

 

[DarrenG]

whippet fan I agree with most of what you have written except this
A dog that is over muscled (starting to be a bit of an issue with 'chunky' dogs) will overheat sprinting and lack the flexibility to turn and corner.

I live here on the fens you need a muscular dog to have the strength to pull its self through the turns, it needs muscle to cope with the strength needed to drive through the plough or the drilled land, I let the dogs out in the morning and there is often a hare or two in the garden , and see a lot of coursing, we also get to go on land the day after hare shoots, in order to look for the possible injured hares, and dogs without muscle never seem to have more then 1 or 2 runs in them.

Also regarding the overheating, I believe you are wrong there, as we all know panting is the dogs way of cooling down, all dogs pant, but (and I am talking working here) a dog develops more muscle the fitter it is gotten(to a point) now give me a very well put together show dog that is known to chase rabbits and a fit(muscular) non descript whippet that is also known to chase rabbits(I am not talking about catching just chasing) and they are both allowed to run together on the same rabbits, then the latter whippet will have its tongue away quicker than the former, it will also probably go on longer. jmo

Darren there's muscled and there's incorrectly muscled. I'm not talking about fitness or racing condition but muscle type. Whippets generally have long lean muscle, not short bulky muscle like a Stafford or similar. Its also like comparing a racing thoroughbred with a chunky cob. Doesn't matter how much work you give a sighthound, you shouldn't be able to make it chunky.

My dogs see rabbits most mornings and the odd hare. We also see a lot of those big Australian hares that jump on their hind legs but I don't allow my boy to chase these. :unsure:

we used to drive to Cannock chase to play with the small version and plenty still play with them on the Isle of Man (and no its not illegal folks)

 

[bertha]

This topic has changed into a fitness one!!! I know we all like a fit whippet. Liza who started the thread only shows her dogs and bunny catching doesn't enter the equation.

All of us have different ideas about stud dogs, I must say I think Darren's idea about a stud dog being used on just a few bitches then withdrawn until the off spring can be evaluated is a very good idea.

Instead of everyone using the latest champion and loads of puppies coming out with the same sire, his idea makes a lot of sense.

:thumbsup:

 

[liza]

This topic has changed into a fitness one!!! I know we all like a fit whippet. Liza who started the thread only shows her dogs and bunny catching doesn't enter the equation.
All of us have different ideas about stud dogs, I must say I think Darren's idea about a stud dog being used on just a few bitches then withdrawn until the off spring can be evaluated is a very good idea.

Instead of everyone using the latest champion and loads of puppies coming out with the same sire, his idea makes a lot of sense.

:thumbsup:

yes you are right bertha i do just show talk about bunny catching my bill has caught a few

i also think it would be a good idea to use a dog a couple of times and see how his progeny comes along

 

[~Annie~]

you need a chill pill TMC I wasnt knocking you lol all I was trying to point out is stamina was something that no one will agree on or could agree on, and it doesnt matter what dog you used non of the dogs there ran for more than 22 secs and all were blowing hard,these dogs in that condition physically wouldnt be able to cope with 6hrs hard lamping in rough weather, I was trying to be sincere in my last post, and most working dogs would lose as I no doubt a good many of them would run cunning even after just watching.

Not mine. Not saying he didn't have his tongue out, but no way was he "blowing hard". Trouble is I can't win here ... answer you and be told I need a chill pill, or let your comments stand and have others think my dog comes back knackered after every run on the lure. Luckily plenty of people have seen him run and know that's not the case.

ok then let me re phrase it

every dog that ran the lure that day was blowing extremely hard compared to most working whippets that I have seen , infact TMC I would like to extend an invitation to you to come spend 5 or 6 hrs lamping with us, then maybe we will both have a better understanding of what each other means :thumbsup:

I definitely think we must mean different things by 'blowing hard". Thanks for the invite, I'm sure the dogs would love a nights lamping, trouble is with the arthritis in my feet and hips I wouldn't, not sure I'd fancy the drive from North Wales to the Fens either ... time was though when I'd have taken you up on the offer :thumbsup:

 

[DarrenG]

no worries

 

[JAX]

This topic has changed into a fitness one!!! I know we all like a fit whippet. Liza who started the thread only shows her dogs and bunny catching doesn't enter the equation.
All of us have different ideas about stud dogs, I must say I think Darren's idea about a stud dog being used on just a few bitches then withdrawn until the off spring can be evaluated is a very good idea.

Instead of everyone using the latest champion and loads of puppies coming out with the same sire, his idea makes a lot of sense.

:thumbsup:

yes you are right bertha i do just show talk about bunny catching my bill has caught a few

i also think it would be a good idea to use a dog a couple of times and see how his progeny comes along

One of the main reasons I used Ch Elvancharm Zola at Turnstone , was becasuse I liked most of his progeny . and the fact they were all to dif lines of bitches but still looked a`type` was another factor too , and I am more than pleased how Peanut has turned out , shes a super girl to live with too ,even if she is a serious thief

 

[bertha]

This topic has changed into a fitness one!!! I know we all like a fit whippet. Liza who started the thread only shows her dogs and bunny catching doesn't enter the equation.
All of us have different ideas about stud dogs, I must say I think Darren's idea about a stud dog being used on just a few bitches then withdrawn until the off spring can be evaluated is a very good idea.

Instead of everyone using the latest champion and loads of puppies coming out with the same sire, his idea makes a lot of sense.

:thumbsup:

yes you are right bertha i do just show talk about bunny catching my bill has caught a few

i also think it would be a good idea to use a dog a couple of times and see how his progeny comes along

One of the main reasons I used Ch Elvancharm Zola at Turnstone , was becasuse I liked most of his progeny . and the fact they were all to dif lines of bitches but still looked a`type` was another factor too , and I am more than pleased how Peanut has turned out , shes a super girl to live with too ,even if she is a serious thief

Zola certainly puts his stamp on his offspring. Well done for following through. Some stud dogs really put their stamp on their pups, that is a good reason for using him if that is the way you decide to go.

I used Ousebank Secret Mission on a bitch I bred. A lot of people questioned why. I just knew he would be the right dog from what he produced. The best and last litter I bred.

Look behind the dog, where it comes from, look at the progeny of it's sire. Think carefully, don't just use the favourite, think about it's sire.

Got to go, chilli waiting.

 

[liza]

This topic has changed into a fitness one!!! I know we all like a fit whippet. Liza who started the thread only shows her dogs and bunny catching doesn't enter the equation.
All of us have different ideas about stud dogs, I must say I think Darren's idea about a stud dog being used on just a few bitches then withdrawn until the off spring can be evaluated is a very good idea.

Instead of everyone using the latest champion and loads of puppies coming out with the same sire, his idea makes a lot of sense.

:thumbsup:

yes you are right bertha i do just show talk about bunny catching my bill has caught a few

i also think it would be a good idea to use a dog a couple of times and see how his progeny comes along

One of the main reasons I used Ch Elvancharm Zola at Turnstone , was becasuse I liked most of his progeny . and the fact they were all to dif lines of bitches but still looked a`type` was another factor too , and I am more than pleased how Peanut has turned out , shes a super girl to live with too ,even if she is a serious thief

Zola certainly puts his stamp on his offspring. Well done for following through. Some stud dogs really put their stamp on their pups, that is a good reason for using him if that is the way you decide to go.

I used Ousebank Secret Mission on a bitch I bred. A lot of people questioned why. I just knew he would be the right dog from what he produced. The best and last litter I bred.

Look behind the dog, where it comes from, look at the progeny of it's sire. Think carefully, don't just use the favourite, think about it's sire.

Got to go, chilli waiting.

i used rearsbylea wild attraction as i liked some of the pups i had seen from him all were a nice size and had good conformation and were doing well in the show ring i am very pleased with dolly

 

[beaker]

i know someone has to be the first one to use a stud dog in order to see just what he can produce but i'm afraid i'm just not that brave and i only breed very occasionally when i want something for myself so i can't just keep trying out new dogs.

i also like to know that a dog has longevity and has remained sound and kept his qualities well into old age, so i tend to shop for studs in the veteran section of whippets... the dog i'm hopeing to use is nearly 10, still fit, healthy and sound, still has good movement and still wins

he's not over used and though he doesn't have an overly strong'stamp' he, in my mind at least, compliments my girl nicely with a little bit of --> :luck: :luck: :luck:

 

[JAX]

As most of you know my last litter was sired by a dog that I had given a cc to ( SA CH Savuka Mambo Sun) , but no one had used him at that time . I felt that he had what I needed in my bitch and although hed no pups around for me to see what he would throw I felt confident enough to use him >

I just think what a shame hes now gone over seas , i think he sired 3 maybe 4 litters . I would loved to have used him again but this time on India ( M Maykyn Me Happi)

Some one has to be the first to use a dog Becka

Ive heard some folk use`new` stud dogs hoping they get cheap/free studs irrespective of breeding/ lines etc (w00t) :thumbsup:

 

[beaker]

:thumbsup:

i think it's the careful and critical thought thats put into finding the most suitable dog thats one of the most important aspects of breeding, and though not foolproof, researching as much as possible about that dog, his health, temperament, suitablity of skills and conformation, lines and type etc and also that of his relatives is essential in order to minimise the chance of unpleasant suprises.

using a stud because he's the nearest or the cheapest or because you think his name and reputation will help shift the pups or the name and reputation of his owner will do you favours just by association, really does the breed no good whatsoever. (IMO)

now here's a thought.. what do people feel about all these stud ads around? i know it's not logisticaly always possible for everyone to get out to meet a stud prior but i'd never pick a dog simply from a photo, i like to get my hands to a dog and spend a little time trying to get to know him

has the internet improved our choice but stunted some of ours ability to be selective and thoughtful about a stud dog?

 

[DarrenG]

there will always be people who use the nearest, yes the internet aids it but if there was no internet it would still happen, and its not right in most cases but it will never stop .Most people who have used my dog have been and seen him catch as well I say he can catch and tbh they arent bothered if he was the ugliest whippet in the world (looks dont kill) but most on here would probably cringe if they saw a pic of him