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Stud Dogs

Discussion in 'Dog Showing' started by liza, Sep 24, 2010.

  1. June Jonigk

    June Jonigk Active Member Registered

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    Unfortunately not just in show whippets. [mod edit as this appears to be an ongoing personal issue and this is not the place to air personal grievances]

    On the stud dog issue, I think each to their own. We have to learn to agree that each type of breeding is favourable to supporters of each discipline. A dog who has a fast sprint speed has no less value than one who runs not so fast, but for longer - unless you are the person wanting them to do just that. They are all whippets at the end of the day. It does disappoint me when I hear people saying they won't use a dog unless it is a racing champion - it looks good on a pedigree, but doesn't always make for fast puppies. It amazes me that some folks think that just putting fast bitches to fast dogs produces fast puppies - it doesn't. IMO temperament is the most important consideration in breeding racing whippets, with other attributes coming after.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 30, 2010
  2. bertha

    bertha New Member Registered

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    Right, what do you June look for in a stud dog?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2010
  3. June Jonigk

    June Jonigk Active Member Registered

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    I already said earlier, temperament above all else, but I haven't bred a litter for almost 9 years. I looked for good bone as my bitch was quite fine boned - she had very good breeding coming from the top dog and bitch for 2 years running, but she wasn't super fast herself. She did manage Championship finals, but her size held her back as she only had little legs! It's wasn't the most important thing to me what the dog looked like, but I do appreciate a fine looking whippet! I do have a preference for correct ears even though I don't show anymore, and I was trying to breed for a parti colour, so the stud dog had to be carrying the parti gene. I chose Costabob before he was a Champion, as he had just about everything I would look for in a dog, his temperament was brilliant, he was a very keen racer, and I liked his owners, which has to be a consideration in racing. You have to be sure you wouldn't mind the stud dog owner having a puppy if they so wished - and they did, which was fine by me. I knew they wouldn't part with the puppy if it didn't make the grade, and a few do. Having previously saying I wouldn't keep 2 from a litter again, I did. I kept the cream parti bitch, but the fawn dog became very special to me. I kept him too, he was the first dog I have owned having always had bitches. I decided to change to dogs, and all my bitches are now spayed, so I won't be breeding again. I have a bitch from my stud dogs litter, and she is just having her first season, but she will be spayed in 3 months time.

    It is true to say that breeding for racing is quite different to breeding for showing, but we would pick a stud dog from good breeding, and because our gene pool is so small we would go away from the bitches breeding as much as possible - with maybe a common ancestor 3-4 generations back. It is increasingly difficult now in racing to find a dog that is not closely bred, as the same dogs tend to get used over and over again. The conformation thing is a funny one. I hate to see cow hocked dogs, and none of mine are, but I have seen very fast dogs that are cow hocked. Good shoulders are a consideration, as are pasterns and feet - as these have a bearing on injury. I don't intend to breed again in the future, as I have a problem letting the pups go, but I would be happy for my young boy to be used at stud if he proves to be a good racer.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2010
  4. chelynnah

    chelynnah Whippet Servant Registered

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    Posts rehashing personal grievances which are nothing to do with the thread have been removed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2010
  5. bertha

    bertha New Member Registered

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    Thank you!!!!!!!!!! :thumbsup:
     
  6. bertha

    bertha New Member Registered

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    June, I don't find conformation a "funny" thing. It is, for a show dog mist important. It is IMO very sad that the racing whippet, I hasten to say not all. is drifting away from the breed standard.

    Surely the the race and show dog should be aiming for the same thing. An all round whippet who fulfills the standard, and to that end, the stud dog plays a big part.

    Maybe the racing whippet could us the odd show bred stud dog to widen the gene pool????????? On the same wave length, size in the show dog could may be be helped by going down the racing way?????

    Very hypothetical I know, but food for thought???????

    :unsure:
     
  7. wild whippies

    wild whippies Super-D-Duper Registered

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    I have to say I think the breed standard is subject to an individuals perception. (Excluding height or weight restrictions which both disciplines are effected by)

    What you've got to ask yourself is why?

    Why would one want to add racing breeding into a show bred dog?

    and vice versa why would one wish to show breeding to a racing line?

    Whilst I'm all for diversity, it can be managed within the realms of each discipline. Show peds are not clones of one another and neither are racing whippets.

    Neither breed (to date) has developed any dire health conditions that would indicate dangerous inbreeding.

    Both disciplines would initially produce offspring that's function would be compromised. The racer would loose it's speed, the show dog it's conformation.

    Persuading breeders who have devoted a life long breeding plan specific to their dicipline would be impossible. It's a matter of ''if it ain't broke don't fix it''

    Massive diversity should only be sought when either the breedline has a fault so inbred that a complete outcross is the only solution and worth the compromises that will be produced in the offspring. Or to those clueless 'breeders' who want to breed a whippet. By this I mean what I consider to be an average whippet that isn't aimed for a specific dicipline and the novice breeder's main priority is to breed healthy dogs of sound character.

    This isn't in anyway critical of those in the latter category, I include myself in this group when I bred my pedigree bitch. Whilst I had years of knowledge of other breeds, I wasn't active enough in a particular discipline to feel confident of breeding genetically sound pups when I didn't have the 'inside' knowledge of any defects, faults etc. As such I chose a total outcross knowing the offspring was going to already secured pet homes and maybe some club whippet racing. The offspring are now 7yrs old and I consider the outcome to be a sucess because, they met the purpose I, (and their owners) were seeking.

    My non-ped racers are a different matter and are bred with a purpose of speed AND durability. We have inbred (quite tightly at times) but the dogs have had phenotypes that are very diverse.

    Anyone with knowledge of the breeding of chinooks will know that this can be done and done well, providing you know what your doing.

    The problem is many do not.
     
  8. June Jonigk

    June Jonigk Active Member Registered

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    My stud dogs last mating was to a half show bred bitch, so we are introducing some new genes to the racing gene pool. I don't think we should both aim for the same thing though, as I don't personally like the fact that whippets in the ring are so big! We have a height limit in racing, so that is an important factor. Also show bred dogs are slow, so why would racing breeders want to breed for whatever show breeders are breeding for? The whippet standard just isn't important to racing people. It might not suit everyone, but that's the way it is ;)
     
  9. liza

    liza New Member Registered

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    a lot of show people have used racing dogs on their bitches not all show bred whippets are slow my little bitch is so fast i would race her if i didnt show her ive had horse people say if she was a 2yo fillie she would be favourite for next years 1000 guinease

    sometimes anoutcross works you look at your bitch and see what you need to inprove on and try and find a dog with the things you are looking for line breeding is a way of knowing what type you are going to get if you do line breed you have to do an outcross every third generation to bring a fresh gene pool in my next litter will line bred on the third generation going back to the old lines which i find keeps the good cinformation and mivement and super temprement and good size

    we dont all breed the same everyone breeds to what they see the standard
     
  10. June Jonigk

    June Jonigk Active Member Registered

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    You should come and give her a go Liza, its great fun, and at the end of the day the best dog wins, and its not just someone's opinion :thumbsup:
     
  11. liza

    liza New Member Registered

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    hi june i would love to give my dogs a run but i dont know of any race tracks round my way
     
  12. June Jonigk

    June Jonigk Active Member Registered

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    Which area are you in Liza?
     
  13. liza

    liza New Member Registered

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    march nr cambridgeshire
     
  14. Liz Third

    Liz Third New Member Registered

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    In reply to "why would anyone want to use a race bred dog on a show type" some of us like to race and show our dogs and as has been pointed out, show breds are not very fast these days, and if I liked the look of any of the racers enough I would like to introduce a bit of speed. The fact that many racers do not worry about the appearance or whether the males are entire makes this rather difficult.
     
  15. Happy Humber

    Happy Humber New Member Registered

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    I have to say I agree with Liza about some show dogs being fast.

    I race at sussex long dogs and we have classes for KC pedigree whippets the races are over 150 250 and 350 yards one race at each distance per meeting.

    There is a dog running very well at the moment who is half way to becoming a wcra racing champ but he is often beaten by a new members dog who is show bred by Ch Airescot Ruby Rascle out of a dam with mostly Kaymark and Spyanfly lines.

    I do think however the old coursing lines did much to keep the breed whole as they seemed to bridge the gap between racing and showing
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 30, 2010
  16. liza

    liza New Member Registered

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    which kaymark lines are there in the pedigree
     
  17. bertha

    bertha New Member Registered

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    Couldn't agree more. My show bred dog is up with the race whippets for speed, but would be better on a longer run as he has loads of stamina. He has not been at optimum fitness this last couple of years due to me not being able to give him the amount of exercise needed to get and keep him fit.

    This has now drifted right away from the original question and is becoming a racing thread!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  18. June Jonigk

    June Jonigk Active Member Registered

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    I also agree that some show breds can have some speed. I don't know which dog you are referring to but being a half champ or even a champ with the wcra means nothing in the racing world these days. They don't get the entry of fast dogs anymore - and before bertha shouts me down (again), just look at the Whippet News Top Ten, only two owners run with the wcra, the rest will not. The Veteran Top Ten, there are only 2 dogs who race with the wcra, and it must be remembered that those dogs had more opens in which to qualify. Also since the wcra lost credibility, and the fast dogs don't go, more people go with their slow dogs which previously they wouldn't have bothered entering.
     
  19. bertha

    bertha New Member Registered

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    Time to get back to the original topic isn't it???? This is now becoming a racing versus show debate.
     
  20. cairo

    cairo New Member Registered

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    Think this must be about my Oscar!....he has quite a lot of Kaymark on his Dams side....Kaymark willie wonker at redbar, Kaymark set the fashion, Kaymark just willie, Fleetway graceful of kaymark, susie sue of kaymark, Kaymark mad max and Kaymark step to the beat.

    His mum is very fast.
     

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