This may open a can of worms - but, from what i have heard from friends in the breed who live abroad, UK breeders seem to be very reasonable when it comes to Stud fee's...often a Stud fee in the UK (Even if the Dog is a Champion/Top Winner etc) Stud fee's i have found to be less than the price of a Puppy.
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Stud Dogs
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I agree with pretty much all of what Pamela (Mossbawnhill) has said. If you think enough of the dog to use him in your breeding programme and you want him and can afford it, then you pay it. I'm not talking about ridiculous prices (but even then, if you want it and can afford it that's up to you). But how long is a piece of string. For me it's not about cost, it's about the lines (health, temperament, conformation, genotype, phenotype) and how they compliment my bitch or fit with my long term goals. If the dog I want to use costs a bit more, but I really want those lines/that breeding, then I wouldn't think twice about paying it. I would certainly never choose a dog based on price or convenience (ie how cheap it was or how close it was). Though if the price was too steep for what I could afford I would look elsewhere to see if I could find similar lines.
And personally I think £200 for a dog (even an unproven one) is still pretty cheap - and why shouldn't an unproven dog be charged for? It's still providing a service. As Russ said, the average Stud Fee over here is still wayyy less than they are abroad (either on the continent or in North America). For that matter our puppies are about half the price as well (but that's a whole 'nother topic).
Actually to be really frank, reading on an all breed board, stud fees and puppy prices in our breed are way less than most of the breeds out there (and I'm talking responsibly bred dogs, not backyard breeders or puppy farms).
Wendy
And personally I think £200 for a dog (even an unproven one) is still pretty cheap - and why shouldn't an unproven dog be charged for? It's still providing a service. As Russ said, the average Stud Fee over here is still wayyy less than they are abroad (either on the continent or in North America). For that matter our puppies are about half the price as well (but that's a whole 'nother topic).
Actually to be really frank, reading on an all breed board, stud fees and puppy prices in our breed are way less than most of the breeds out there (and I'm talking responsibly bred dogs, not backyard breeders or puppy farms).
Wendy
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i agree wendy the most i paid was £300 that was 6 years ago it was worth it, i wouldnt mind paying £200 for a maiden dog if i could have a return on a proven bitch,
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Stud fee is the least important issue I am considering when deciding on a stud dog. It really is only a fraction of the cost of the whole exercise, provided that it is within the "normal". Within this normal, the difference between the cheapest and most expensive fee, when divided between number of pups in the litter, is quite negligible. IMHO if somebody feels they need to use "cheaper" dog to save couple of hundreds, they really should not be breeding.
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Quite right . I dont think Ive ever asked how much a stud fee is until Ive actually agreed to use the dog . The price, unless a real `silly ` price would not stop me using the dog I want
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Wow--I don't check this forum that often anymore, but this is a very interesting topic and set of replies. I could write reams and reams about some of it (we don't technically have lamping over here--our open field competitions involve Jack Rabbits and western ranches and negotiating barbed wire fences, etc. in the Western parts of the US which is quite a bit different from what I read on these forums with regard to the working Whippet), but we do have tensions between show/racing/coursing folks and the usual discussions that entails.
But I'm going to jump on a couple of of the more recent topics.
First--stud fees in America:
HIGH, compared to yours.
Showbred Sire fees here range from $500 up to $1000 with most sires being priced at $800-1000 and this is even if they've no winning offspring in the ring at the time you use them. Personally, I find this high, but the amount of health testing we are expected to do on our stud dogs here is a contributing factor. By the time you've done your annual echo and eye exam, you have $300 into your stud dog already. Also, a lot of the US breeders airship their bitches to the stud, which means that the stud dog owner may end up keeping that bitch a week or more and having to deal with two airport runs. I don't mind paying more for that service, but I do think that someone who just brings their bitch to your hotel room at the National and manages the mating or helps with it shouldn't be charged the same as the bitch owner who expects you to go to the airport twice and essentially board and care for the bitch and manage the matings yourself.
That's just me, though, because that's not how it actually works.
But with all that higher fee comes the whole rigamarole of if the bitch doesn't take or you don't get two live puppies you get a repeat service, blah blah blah.
With frozen semen, it's different. Usually the stud fee is non-refundable because the stud owner has no control over the situation--it's up to the people on the bitch end to make sure that the insemination is done correctly at the correct time.
I actually really like the model that I have heard about from Europe and I'm going to adopt it, even though I don't like managing stud dogs and don't have dogs here that are of wide interest, I get a few bitches through the years, and this is how I want to do it: A $250 non-refundable "breeding fee". Then a per puppy charge for live puppies at six weeks of age. Extra charges for airport runs or extended stays on the part of the bitch. I love this fee-for-service model. It is very fair and it doesn't obligate me to offer a repeat breeding if the bitch doesn't take the first time (frankly, if I can't get them bred correctly the first time, I don't fancy my chances on a repeat) OR keep the dog unneutered if I decide I'm done using him just so someone can get their repeat service at their convenience. And it means that the bitch owner who gets a small litter with few puppies to sell has a lower fee and the bitch owner who gets a big litter with lots to sell pays more. It motivates me to make sure the bitch is bred to produce the most puppies she can produce. No puppies--you're only out the breeding fee, but I don't refund that under any circumstances.
All around a winner of an idea, in my book. I love this way of handling it. The motel room drive-by pays less and the person who requires me to go to the airport, run the vet for progesterone tests/smears, keep the bitch an extra week so they can get back from vacation, etc. pays more. Fair structure.
Racing/coursing sires are much less expensive--I'd say $400-600 from what I have heard. Puppies bred for performance events sell for a lot less than show prospects, as a rule, and are often given to proven performance homes.
Second, with regard to the criteria for choosing stud dogs, I think that one thing that has not been mentioned is that when choosing an outside sire, the integrity and character of the stud dog owner should come into play a lot more than it does, particularly if you are a newer person to the hobby. It is a great compliment to to have your stud dogs used by outside breeders and I feel that this requires more than just the possession of a male who has won prizes, but that the owner needs to be someone who has a good reputation in the breed and also has the willingness to provide good input and mentoring if someone who is relatively new uses that dog. I have not used several dogs over the years which had good siring records and probably would have sired winners out of my bitch simply because I do not trust the ethics and honesty of their owner. I do not trust that individual to disclose any known defects of the line to me, nor do I admire their own ethics in selling puppies, and/or their sportsmanship. I will not reward such individuals with a stud fee, no matter how impressive their stud dog might be. There are plenty of people who feel otherwise, but chasing the win is not important enough to me to compromise on this. There are lots of good males in the hands of people who are honest and accessible and will contribute good insights into the puppy grading process, or even direct potential good homes my way. For a novice breeder, this is even more important. Not to mention, if you are trusting someone to take care of your bitch for a week, they need to have a good set-up and your bitch needs to come back in whelp to the dog of your choice, not random other dogs they own who got to her by accident. This happened to my mom in Poodles and it was before DNA and it was not a good thing.
Temperament is important in the stud dog, clearly, but the temperament of the stud dog owner is also a consideration with me. My pleasure in using an outside stud dog is enhanced when I can share the puppies with the owner of the sire and get feedback...and after all, this is a hobby and is supposed to be fun. It's more fun to use a stud dog who is owned by a nice person who is not too haughty to take your calls. :angry:
Bottom line.
But I'm going to jump on a couple of of the more recent topics.
First--stud fees in America:
HIGH, compared to yours.
Showbred Sire fees here range from $500 up to $1000 with most sires being priced at $800-1000 and this is even if they've no winning offspring in the ring at the time you use them. Personally, I find this high, but the amount of health testing we are expected to do on our stud dogs here is a contributing factor. By the time you've done your annual echo and eye exam, you have $300 into your stud dog already. Also, a lot of the US breeders airship their bitches to the stud, which means that the stud dog owner may end up keeping that bitch a week or more and having to deal with two airport runs. I don't mind paying more for that service, but I do think that someone who just brings their bitch to your hotel room at the National and manages the mating or helps with it shouldn't be charged the same as the bitch owner who expects you to go to the airport twice and essentially board and care for the bitch and manage the matings yourself.
That's just me, though, because that's not how it actually works.
But with all that higher fee comes the whole rigamarole of if the bitch doesn't take or you don't get two live puppies you get a repeat service, blah blah blah.
With frozen semen, it's different. Usually the stud fee is non-refundable because the stud owner has no control over the situation--it's up to the people on the bitch end to make sure that the insemination is done correctly at the correct time.
I actually really like the model that I have heard about from Europe and I'm going to adopt it, even though I don't like managing stud dogs and don't have dogs here that are of wide interest, I get a few bitches through the years, and this is how I want to do it: A $250 non-refundable "breeding fee". Then a per puppy charge for live puppies at six weeks of age. Extra charges for airport runs or extended stays on the part of the bitch. I love this fee-for-service model. It is very fair and it doesn't obligate me to offer a repeat breeding if the bitch doesn't take the first time (frankly, if I can't get them bred correctly the first time, I don't fancy my chances on a repeat) OR keep the dog unneutered if I decide I'm done using him just so someone can get their repeat service at their convenience. And it means that the bitch owner who gets a small litter with few puppies to sell has a lower fee and the bitch owner who gets a big litter with lots to sell pays more. It motivates me to make sure the bitch is bred to produce the most puppies she can produce. No puppies--you're only out the breeding fee, but I don't refund that under any circumstances.
All around a winner of an idea, in my book. I love this way of handling it. The motel room drive-by pays less and the person who requires me to go to the airport, run the vet for progesterone tests/smears, keep the bitch an extra week so they can get back from vacation, etc. pays more. Fair structure.
Racing/coursing sires are much less expensive--I'd say $400-600 from what I have heard. Puppies bred for performance events sell for a lot less than show prospects, as a rule, and are often given to proven performance homes.
Second, with regard to the criteria for choosing stud dogs, I think that one thing that has not been mentioned is that when choosing an outside sire, the integrity and character of the stud dog owner should come into play a lot more than it does, particularly if you are a newer person to the hobby. It is a great compliment to to have your stud dogs used by outside breeders and I feel that this requires more than just the possession of a male who has won prizes, but that the owner needs to be someone who has a good reputation in the breed and also has the willingness to provide good input and mentoring if someone who is relatively new uses that dog. I have not used several dogs over the years which had good siring records and probably would have sired winners out of my bitch simply because I do not trust the ethics and honesty of their owner. I do not trust that individual to disclose any known defects of the line to me, nor do I admire their own ethics in selling puppies, and/or their sportsmanship. I will not reward such individuals with a stud fee, no matter how impressive their stud dog might be. There are plenty of people who feel otherwise, but chasing the win is not important enough to me to compromise on this. There are lots of good males in the hands of people who are honest and accessible and will contribute good insights into the puppy grading process, or even direct potential good homes my way. For a novice breeder, this is even more important. Not to mention, if you are trusting someone to take care of your bitch for a week, they need to have a good set-up and your bitch needs to come back in whelp to the dog of your choice, not random other dogs they own who got to her by accident. This happened to my mom in Poodles and it was before DNA and it was not a good thing.
Temperament is important in the stud dog, clearly, but the temperament of the stud dog owner is also a consideration with me. My pleasure in using an outside stud dog is enhanced when I can share the puppies with the owner of the sire and get feedback...and after all, this is a hobby and is supposed to be fun. It's more fun to use a stud dog who is owned by a nice person who is not too haughty to take your calls. :angry:
Bottom line.
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Top notch post Karen. And (being relatively new) I also totally agree with your thoughts on the owner of the stud dog as well. I guess for me it goes without saying (though it should be said), even if I loved the dog and felt it had a lot to add, I wouldn't want to tie myself up with someone who I couldn't trust or share the experience with totally, so I would have to look elsewhere. AndTemperament is important in the stud dog, clearly, but the temperament of the stud dog owner is also a consideration with me. My pleasure in using an outside stud dog is enhanced when I can share the puppies with the owner of the sire and get feedback...and after all, this is a hobby and is supposed to be fun. It's more fun to use a stud dog who is owned by a nice person who is not too haughty to take your calls. :angry:
Bottom line.
I think the reverse is also true. Someone with a stud dog shouldn't feel obligated to allow their dog to be used on a bitch (no matter what her quality) if they don't trust the integrity of the owners (no matter who they are). After all - when there are problems isn't it always 'the stud dog's fault'? I know it isn't, but that's definitely the impression you can get when problems crop up.
I do also very much like the European way of charging stud fees. I think it's fairer all round to everyone involved, and there are a few people here who have been doing similar for a few years. But it also relies on the integrity of the two people involved - so again, dealing with someone you trust is of utmost importance :cheers:
Wendy
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Like Karen, I have only just seen this excellent thread and cannot resist joining in
Jenny wrote
In addition why do we coin the term "old fashioned whippet", why do we not describe dogs as "modern type of whippet".
We do. In my Darlington critique I did just that. And people who say, "two small to show" may just be trying not to say, "not good enough" to show more politely because I have also given a ticket to an 18.5" bitch recently.
Having tried over many years as chairman of the Whippet Club to maintain the concept of "one breed" I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that it is a lost cause - people will always breed to win in their chosen venue, whether show or racing, with the result that all-round whippets are few and far between and as Liz has said, it is virtually impossible now to find a racing line that could be successfully incorporated into show stock although I am not convinced that it would be impossible the other way round. Choosing a stud dog is a real minefield now that we know more about the genetics of health problems but the bottom line is that if you go for an outcross, you are going to get the full range of sizes unless at least one side has been consistent for size in all siblings for several generations - and even then, it is not a given . The breeder's personal selection plays a big part here.
Gay
www.moonlake.co.uk
Jenny wrote
In addition why do we coin the term "old fashioned whippet", why do we not describe dogs as "modern type of whippet".
We do. In my Darlington critique I did just that. And people who say, "two small to show" may just be trying not to say, "not good enough" to show more politely because I have also given a ticket to an 18.5" bitch recently.
Having tried over many years as chairman of the Whippet Club to maintain the concept of "one breed" I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that it is a lost cause - people will always breed to win in their chosen venue, whether show or racing, with the result that all-round whippets are few and far between and as Liz has said, it is virtually impossible now to find a racing line that could be successfully incorporated into show stock although I am not convinced that it would be impossible the other way round. Choosing a stud dog is a real minefield now that we know more about the genetics of health problems but the bottom line is that if you go for an outcross, you are going to get the full range of sizes unless at least one side has been consistent for size in all siblings for several generations - and even then, it is not a given . The breeder's personal selection plays a big part here.
Gay
www.moonlake.co.uk
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