Wcra 2nd Champs Results

[Scotty]

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My other dog was Artic Scott, Bred out of flying Scott X Apris Ski his litter brother was snowflake Flyer. he could fly up the straights. winning supremes by yds. used to run wide on the bends. He was put to sleep at 2 1/2 years old as all the muscles in his right shoulder were parted from and snaped when he was hit at the end of a race at Wokingham, he won by ten tds and was comming back to the lure after running over it at the finnish, a 30ld slower dog was comming in as he returned, resulting in a head on collision, I took him to Provesor Proll at Potters Bar £500 later and six months of I tried to race him again he lasted two race meetings onw which he reached the finals of the Feds at oxford, he only weighed 18 1/2 lbs that day when he normally weighed 20 lbs. His led broke down after this meeting and Mr Proll thought amputation was required, so i took the sad desision to put him to sleep. He only enterd one WCRA championship which he won.

The race was as follows at abbotts ann 11th April 1982

R. Sams Mirage 3rd

B. Gin spirit 2nd

W. Purdy 4rth

B. arctic Scott 1st Time 9.63 i was wondering how does this time compare to to-days 20 lb winners.

 

[Scotty]

Hi it's Peter Scott on line,DNA if im correct proved GOOD AS GOLD was the sire of the besap litter and were banned, most ended up in America where they started a second round of trouble regarding breeding lines.

Hi Peter,

I was interested in your observation that G as G had been confirmed by DNA testing to be behind the Besaps dogs. My interest is because I have several dogs that have Besaps four or five generations back in their pedigrees.

As far as I'm aware the discovery and certainly the technoligy of applying the principles of DNA testing were not perfected until the late 1980's and the practical application was not used by the greyhound Industry in the shape of The National Greyhound Association in the USA until 1991. How then is it possible that G as G was declared behind the Besaps dogs by the use of DNA?

There are very few Whippets racing successfully in the USA that don't have one of the three Besaps dogs imported into Canada (not the USA) in their pedigrees and as I'm not aware of the "round of trouble" to which you allude I am left wondering what I missed! I think they were imported into Canada in about 1981 so even when they do appear they are several generations back. Should we be concerned about something that happened over twenty years ago?

I understand your WCRA won't passport any dog that has Besaps, no matter how far back which effecively stops any dogs coming to the UK for racing purposes. There are a few exceptions and I happen to own a few of them! Do you know what other dogs in US pedigrees would be likely to not be allowed by the WCRA?

They are all of course eligable for KC registration. How does the WCRA make their decisions? In a public forum or behind closed doors?

I'm intrigued to know what happens if a dog with Besaps comes to the UK and has a successful show carreer.

Not so far fetched as it sounds as quite a few very nice show dogs have a Besaps dog in their pedigrees.

It would be rather odd, don't you think, if there was a show champion that was excluded by the WCRA? Has that happened before?

Sorry about all the questions but it's difficult to understand the problem from this side of the pond. :b

The picture is of a dog with Besaps several generations back and is a Championship show breed winner. There are others with a Champoin title.

One other point noteing The WCRA does not only eliminate non- peds because of looks, as there are plenty of very fast non peds that would win in the show ring. It is the speed that these dogs can attain that the WCRA needs to keep in check in order for true peds to have a chance on the race track. Maybe the kennel club would let these dogs with old besaps lines enter cruffts, but im sure the WCRA would still need to ban them in order to keep the lines pure,

Or they would end up like non-peds fast strong good looking, and able to do exactly what they were bred in the first place for. only kiddin theirs room for both.

 

[tlewis]

One other point noteing The WCRA does not only eliminate non- peds because of looks, as there are plenty of very fast non peds that would win in the show ring. It is the speed that these dogs can attain that the WCRA needs to keep in check in order for true peds to have a chance on the race track. Maybe the kennel club would let these dogs with old besaps lines enter cruffts, but im sure the WCRA would still need to ban them in order to keep the lines pure,
Or they would end up like non-peds fast strong good looking, and able to do exactly what they were bred in the first place for.   only kiddin theirs room for both.

It sure is a strange stance by the WCRA which is supposed to be a racing organization.

Last time I looked the object of racing was to be first over the line and the various racing organizations form a framework of rules for dogs to race within those guidelines. I understood that one of the WCRA guidelines is, or at least was, that they be KC registered. Maybe I'm wrong in that? It's just some registered dogs that can race under the WCRA. If you don't accept KC registration you might as well form your own registry and collect the fees. Maybe that's how it's done.

Like I say we are the other side of the pond!

If the idea of the rules is to keep out the competition it would seem to me that the quality of competition would eventually go down hill.

Is that happening? I suppose if all are going down hill together you'd never notice

From your remarks I'd gather that to be a true ped it must be slow.

Too bad!! So sad!!

Me thinks your tongue was firmly in your cheek :sweating:

 

[Strike Whippets]

I personally think that as time goes on with more and more show bred Whippets being imported, that if there are lines that are banned or undesirable that it will end up being a massive problem in the peddie racers .........As we all know alot of us peddie racers started with a show bred Whippet, so is it ok for dogs with undesirable pedigrees to race at club level but not at opens ?? :wacko: dosn't make any sense does it ..........but small racing clubs like South Cotswolds rely on our show bred club dogs to keep our little clubs ticking over ...............As for the Besaps as Tony said .....20 years was a long time ago, and i can't find ANY evidence of any test etc.........so it was all based on hear say imo :thumbsup:

 

[Scotty]

In reply, it would not matter where Mr lytham lived, if his dogs looked like they did in the late seventies -early eighties, they stood out like a sore thum in looks and performance, and like I said where else does this breeding produce racing or show winners. apart from that one litter.! need I say more.

 

[BeeJay]

>Don't wish to be pedantic but she was bred by Terry AND Sheila Smith. I'm the inspiration Sheila's the persperation.

Sorry about that Sheila. :b

 

[Strike Whippets]

In reply, it would not matter where Mr lytham lived, if his dogs looked like they did in the late seventies -early eighties, they stood out like a sore thumb in looks and performance, and like I said where else does this breeding produce racing or show winners.  apart from that one litter.! need I say more.

I was only born in the 70's so i don't know about what the Besaps looked like or performed like .............but i do know that i have a very well bred bitch that is line bred, and out of the 6 pup's in this litter as they have grown, they look sooo different and their racing performances are also so different (ie one bitch was shown at Crufts and the other sister won her 1st champs at 14 months old ) .....So if we were to gauge say this one litter (like the Besaps were) what would/should people say ?? :unsure: .....

 

[malin]

For example what about descendants of Andy Thor (known non-KC registered whippet) who was exported to France.  My understanding is that once there he was assessed by whippet experts and was deemed to be a whippet and his name changed to J'Andy Thor

That is how it was. When I look at his pedigree most of it consists of well known purebred whippet lines.

If I understand things correctly about France (correct me if I'm wrong!) the offspring of a dog that is deemed a Whippet and consequently registered but doesn't have a pedigree will not be able to compete for the International Champion title until at least 3 generations down the line. Noteworthy is also that EVERY Whippet whatever the descent is (or lack thereof) must be assessed by whippet experts and deemed a Whippet. Just because the parents are Whippets the offspring might not look like it... too big, too small, etc.

Andy Thor appears in the 5th line of the great Multi Ch Taraly Malcom X's pedigree.

Certainly does! And that is only a problem if there is pup going to the UK and a home interested in racing... THEN it is a problem!!! Show home = not a problem.

I know that a very well known show breeder from the UK is going to assess him in person this year with a view to breeding from him.

If this breeder (it sounds as if this person has some clout) gets some successful offspring in the show ring (and after using this dog twice I find it very probable). It might ease the way... if it doesn't the WCRA might find that the acceptable bloodlines are very few and not very numerous in a few decades.

Would the WCRA then be refusing passports to his progeny?  This could affect people on this list directly for instance Malin mated him to a bitch that Terry Smith bred.  Would any of those pups or progeny from them be able to get passports?  As we all know they are lovely looking dogs and I don't find it unthinkable that someone will wanted to import into the UK one of them or one of their pups.

Thank you for the compliment! This question has already arisen and it was one of the reasons that the pup stayed in Sweden... but maybe the next generation?

I'm wondering if any of the European dogs that have competed in the UK show ring and won would be deemed to be unsuitable for granting a racing passport to.

Might be the case :- ) My belief is that the WCRA are very slowly painting themselves into a corner. There should at least be some sort of clearly stated generation limit. e.g. if a to them non-acceptable Whippet appears once 12 generations down the line it is plain silly to deem the dog unacceptable for a passport... The 'offensive' dog would be contributing with less than 0.05% to the genetic make-up of its distant descendant.

The situation stands that a pedigree whippet can be shown and win BIS at The Whippet Club champ show but not raced at an open based on the facts that The Whippet Club finds it is pedigree acceptable and the WCRA says that it isn't?

Sums it up nicely.

 

[Vicky]

There should at least be some sort of clearly stated generation limit. e.g. if a to them non-acceptable Whippet appears once 12 generations down the line it is plain silly to deem the dog unacceptable for a passport... The 'offensive' dog would be contributing with less than 0.05% to the genetic make-up of its distant descendant.

I agree, for what difference a descendant from Andy Thor would make it's not worth stopping these people from racing in this country. Having Blue Peter as a descendant isn't like having a current non ped in the bloodline anyway, as off times he was probably slower than the current pedigree's anyway! I would like to bet the litter you bred Malin (no offence) wouldn't be any faster than some of the peds we get at Gin Pit that don't have that breeding in, because that line was so far back.

 

[Strike Whippets]

Lets hope that there are some WCRA members reading this thread :thumbsup: ..............I do think that it's going to be very hard to find a racing bred import (or any import quite frankly) that would meet the "standards" of the WCRA :angry: .........But i'll keep looking h34r: as theres got to be some out there

 

[malin]

I would like to bet the litter you bred Malin (no offence) wouldn't be any faster than some of the  peds

No offense taken! I am quite sure that the dames part (bred by Terry & Sheila) of the pedigree contains MUCH more speed than the heavily show bred French sires side. Dame is wholly acceptable to the WCRA...

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

[
I agree, for what difference a descendant from Andy Thor would make it's not worth stopping these people from racing in this country.  Having Blue Peter as a descendant isn't like having a current non ped in the bloodline anyway, as off times he was probably slower than the current pedigree's anyway!  I would like to bet the litter you bred Malin (no offence) wouldn't be any faster than some of the  peds we get at Gin Pit that don't have that breeding in, because that line was so far back.

I visited a Belgian whippet racing site some years ago. Their results were from 350 metres & the times broke down to the best of them doing around 17 yds per sec. Almost all the peds of these went back (way back) to J'Andy Thor, Good as Gold & the Besaps. I don't know what times most open class peds are clocking these days but the times we got when we ran snap dog gave the very best of them (Sunshine, Red Wind) around 16 yds per sec.Incidentally these dogs have strict height limitations (don't know about weight) so should please the WCRA's small is beautiful policy. I think they have pretty strict rules on mono's/cyrptos too but again I can't be certain. These dogs have been strictly bred for many years & IMO would be a welcome infusion to british lines.

I think Int. Ch Taraly Malcom X has some good performance dogs pretty close up in his ped something few if any british show champions have.

Terry Smith

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

, they stood out like a sore thum in looks and performance, and like I said where else does this breeding produce racing or show winners.  apart from that one litter.! need I say more.

Good as Golld was noted as a good looking dog that conformed to the ped standard in most aspects. So it's inclusion in a ped line shouldn't have stood out that much. All this is cold & dead & not worth wrangling over but doesn't some breeding throw up exceptional individuals against the grain of the breeding? Red Rum was first auctioned as "should make a decent 6 furlonger". We had a dog who could beat good open class dogs at club handicaps usually giving them yds. He has never thrown anything as fast as he was however. This is the defining mark of good breeding stock. They pass their qualities on. Dog & horse racing have many examples of fast animals that never produced anything as good as them. If a show bred dog turned up that was faster than anything else would it's breeding be considered suspect because there was nothing at the back of it that was fast?

Terry Smith

 

[Scotty]

Good as Gold would never qualify as looking like a Pedigree, when race fit he was very stocky, full of muscle, no way he coiuld pass as a ped, sorry but it's true.

 

[Vicky]

Good as Golld was noted as a good looking dog that conformed to the ped standard in most aspects

Don't actually know what the ped standard was back then (& still dont) but anyone with an eye for a non ped would have picked him out.

Good as Gold would never qualify as looking like a Pedigree, when race fit he was very stocky, full of muscle, no way he coiuld pass as a ped, sorry but it's true.

Yeh, was gonna post the same thing, from what i've seen on pics and everything my grandad has said he was pretty stocky built - that imo would definitely stand out when put across a ped.

 

[John E Greenwood]

What TRIPE................this is livestock we are talking about....nature under OUR control.........The word PEDIGREE imposes parameters within which the breeding of our whippets is acceptable for inclusion within certain competitions ...(W.C.R.A.)..If we realize that our stock can be improved upon (ALL stock can be improved)...for the purpose for which we are breeding it.....then there should be some mechanism from within both the W.R.C.A. and the K.C. which allows the stock to BE improved.

If genes are introduced and they DON'T improve the population, then I'm sure they will soon loose favour and be diluted out of existance.

There are VERY few new ideas in the world......perhaps the W.C.R.A. should look at other livestock breeding for parallels.

Some of the points Terry and Sheila raise are explained in one word ..HERETABILITY.... performance is generally of a low heretability...... phenotype (looks, showing, etc.) is generally of a high heretability.

 

[Judy]

performance is generally of a low heretability

About 30% according to studies into Thoroughbred racehorse breeding. I dare say it would be about the same for dogs.

 

[John E Greenwood]

EXACTLY Judy......coat length, number of legs, number of heads, number of tails..100%........I did that study myself

 

[Nigel]

Just thought it was interesting that they had actually managed to come up with a figure for performance factors.

Judy on Nigels computer.

 

[Scotty]

Well , what are the times for the 20lb winners over 150 nowdays ? I would love to know. Thanks . Scotty.