Wcra Reps Meeting Venue Change

[June Jonigk]

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It has already been suggested by the WCRA that they will bring in DNA profiling at time of passporting. We have DNA profiles for our dogs already, but to me that is not good enough. The dogs need to be profiled when passported as they can then be witnessed by seconders, and maybe a club representative, say racing manager, or secretary in attendance too . We certainly do need DNA profiling, but the situation needs handling properly, and not be open to abuse.

There are lots of other people eager to get going with a new democratic governing body Sue, but we have to await the outcome of the WCRA's decision, to certify whether people will or will not want a change, and I don't think people will want to make that decision until the know the alternative. If of course the alternative is possibly running with non peds, then I think it will go full speed ahead :thumbsup:

 

[captin fantastic]

I thought I heard her say that she last saw the dog the last season that he coursed, which was 4 or 5 years ago, not when he was 4 or 5 years old - presumably she had known the dog for years so it would have been easy to identify him. Come on we would all recognise dogs that we had seen week in week out, there have been threads on here where people have recognised dogs from years back. You've had dna results from a dog that was photographed having the test done, and a letter from a very well respected vet who confirms he did the test, and someone who can independantly verify the dog in the photograph was who he was claimed to be. Other DNA results match the ones taken from the sire direct, so does this not prove that the dog on the table is the father of all of the puppies? Obviously not ...........instead its easier to accuse the Vet, the stud owner and the breeder of fraud.

I saw the photo of the 'sire', and it was not a photograph taken for identity purposes. Perhaps you would like to post it here Rae and let others see if they could identify him? :blink:

For the record, no one has accused the breeder of fraud :thumbsup:

I wonder why not?

Instead there is a campaign of whispers, orchestrated by those skilled in the arts of mud-slinging, fuelled by jealousy and the pure enjoyment of watching people suffer.

All this is dressed up with concerns about "the purity of the breed" and "bringing racing into disrepute" etc.etc.

Then there`s the conspiracy theory suckers who are only too willing to believe that" them" above fiddle the system to help their mates up the ladder.

And of course any oik off the street is now "an expert" if he/she has manged to read a book.

I can think of at least three Science Graduates in our club but what do we know? Or the vet?

So when this new organistion is formed ,based on jealousy and hatred , how long will it last?

Gavin.

PS. How about posting this in it`s entirety if K9 is not biassed against "the litter" and its breeder?

i have been following this thread with interest and must say that i have been very impressed with the behaviour of the racers ,they have been civil,polite in thier replys under what must be very worrying times ,they have been a credit to pedigree racing and have shown there love of the sport ,of course there has been one or to exceptions

 

[June Jonigk]

I thought I heard her say that she last saw the dog the last season that he coursed, which was 4 or 5 years ago, not when he was 4 or 5 years old - presumably she had known the dog for years so it would have been easy to identify him. Come on we would all recognise dogs that we had seen week in week out, there have been threads on here where people have recognised dogs from years back. You've had dna results from a dog that was photographed having the test done, and a letter from a very well respected vet who confirms he did the test, and someone who can independantly verify the dog in the photograph was who he was claimed to be. Other DNA results match the ones taken from the sire direct, so does this not prove that the dog on the table is the father of all of the puppies? Obviously not ...........instead its easier to accuse the Vet, the stud owner and the breeder of fraud.

I saw the photo of the 'sire', and it was not a photograph taken for identity purposes. Perhaps you would like to post it here Rae and let others see if they could identify him? :blink:

For the record, no one has accused the breeder of fraud :thumbsup:

I wonder why not?

Instead there is a campaign of whispers, orchestrated by those skilled in the arts of mud-slinging, fuelled by jealousy and the pure enjoyment of watching people suffer.

All this is dressed up with concerns about "the purity of the breed" and "bringing racing into disrepute" etc.etc.

Then there`s the conspiracy theory suckers who are only too willing to believe that" them" above fiddle the system to help their mates up the ladder.

And of course any oik off the street is now "an expert" if he/she has manged to read a book.

I can think of at least three Science Graduates in our club but what do we know? Or the vet?

So when this new organistion is formed ,based on jealousy and hatred , how long will it last?

Gavin.

PS. How about posting this in it`s entirety if K9 is not biassed against "the litter" and its breeder?

i have been following this thread with interest and must say that i have been very impressed with the behaviour of the racers ,they have been civil,polite in thier replys under what must be very worrying times ,they have been a credit to pedigree racing and have shown there love of the sport ,of course there has been one or to exceptions

Well we are quite a civilised bunch, and you only need to look at the number of people who have come together in this, to see that its not just a bunch of people jealous of other people's fast dogs. No one minds being beaten fair and square, in fact we are all very good at congratulating each other when someone else's dog wins. Personally, I love doing the video of the Champs, and giving them to others to remember their day, and their dogs win - so I'm certainly not jealous of anyone who wins. I get almost as much joy in seeing friends dogs win, as I do my own - and I think that is true for the majority of pedigree whippet racers. So thank you for your positive post, and for recognising what a nice bunch of people we are

 

[sue greenwood]

It has already been suggested by the WCRA that they will bring in DNA profiling at time of passporting. We have DNA profiles for our dogs already, but to me that is not good enough. The dogs need to be profiled when passported as they can then be witnessed by seconders, and maybe a club representative, say racing manager, or secretary in attendance too - that way it stops the situation we have now where racers feel that a certain seconder was used as they were a personal friend. We certainly do need DNA profiling, but the situation needs handling properly, and not be open to abuse.
There are lots of other people eager to get going with a new democratic governing body Sue, but we have to await the outcome of the WCRA's decision, to certify whether people will or will not want a change, and I don't think people will want to make that decision until the know the alternative. If of course the alternative is running with non peds, then I think it will go full speed ahead :thumbsup:

I agree DNA testing needs to be brought in and I also know it is open to abuse. The sad fact is no matter how closely you police it someone will find a way to cheat the system.

 

[Rae]

Id be in support of DNA profiling, perhaps this could be captured on the passport somehow? Would this mean that anyone applying for a passport would need to have an ear tattoo or a micrchip?

If this is the route that is decided upon, presumably to ensure everything is above board, then would it not be a good idea to think about drug testing in a new regime also?

 

[Judy]

Id be in support of DNA profiling, perhaps this could be captured on the passport somehow? Would this mean that anyone applying for a passport would need to have an ear tattoo or a micrchip?
If this is the route that is decided upon, presumably to ensure everything is above board, then would it not be a good idea to think about drug testing in a new regime also?

Whilst its a good idea and would definitely help to identify the dog, I don't think chipping/tattooing would be necessary if the sample was taken at the time of passporting or with the passport there to identify the dog against the pictures and nail and toe markings etc.. That way the profile would be linked to the passport and the passport to the dog.

As for drug testing........ well thats another debate!

 

[June Jonigk]

Id be in support of DNA profiling, perhaps this could be captured on the passport somehow? Would this mean that anyone applying for a passport would need to have an ear tattoo or a micrchip?
If this is the route that is decided upon, presumably to ensure everything is above board, then would it not be a good idea to think about drug testing in a new regime also?

Whilst its a good idea and would definitely help to identify the dog, I don't think chipping/tattooing would be necessary if the sample was taken at the time of passporting or with the passport there to identify the dog against the pictures and nail and toe markings etc.. That way the profile would be linked to the passport and the passport to the dog.

As for drug testing........ well thats another debate!

That's how I see it too. A profile taken at passporting stage with the dog identified at that stage would be enough. Within no time at all, dogs used at stud would have profiles on record, and any doubts could be soon put to rest. Personally I would not want to microchip or ear tattoo my dogs, as I like them the way they are :lol: I don't think you could enforce tattoing or microchipping without a battle.

Right, I'm off on my hols, so I can forget all of this contoversy, and when I get back, a decision should have been made and one way or another we can move forward :thumbsup:

 

[slimfast]

Id be in support of DNA profiling, perhaps this could be captured on the passport somehow? Would this mean that anyone applying for a passport would need to have an ear tattoo or a micrchip?
If this is the route that is decided upon, presumably to ensure everything is above board, then would it not be a good idea to think about drug testing in a new regime also?

Whilst its a good idea and would definitely help to identify the dog, I don't think chipping/tattooing would be necessary if the sample was taken at the time of passporting or with the passport there to identify the dog against the pictures and nail and toe markings etc.. That way the profile would be linked to the passport and the passport to the dog.

As for drug testing........ well thats another debate!

i do not think dna testing is a good idea due to cost / we have had are dogs microchip. if some one wants to cheat they will dna test or not

 

[Judy]

I suppose the DNA profiling could be voluntary as long as it is still witnessed but people should then be made aware that if there is a controversy and one of the parents has died it could cause a problem. Sort of a 'don't have a witnessed profile done at your own risk' thing.

 

[Rae]

Perhaps a DNA proile is irrelevant at the time of passporting if it would only become relevant if a dog was used at stud, so would the be best practice be to put this in place before a dog was used?

 

[peppermint lady]

Perhaps a DNA proile is irrelevant at the time of passporting if it would only become relevant if a dog was used at stud, so would the be best practice be to put this in place before a dog was used?

i agree All stud dogs should be DNA'd before going to stud, and this witnessed by the relevant people to match the passport :thumbsup:

this has all been such a sorry state of affairs and fingers crossed many lessons have been learnt along the way by both breeders, WCRA and general racers :thumbsup:

as June has said, i would not want to tattoo/micro chip my dogs, and as many of us don't breed it seems lots of expense in an already very expensive hobby.

having said that if it needs to be done then i will be happy to comply, as long as with the current situation its not a matter of "closing the stable door after the horse has bolted" so to speak.

 

[dolly]

The cost of a DNA profile is £15, both my boys have been done, not really very much, IMO all stud dogs should be done.

 

[peppermint lady]

The cost of a DNA profile is £15, both my boys have been done, not really very much, IMO all stud dogs should be done.

no its not a lot if your only doing 1 or 2, but with us having 10 (w00t) it adds up a bit :sweating:

especially if we don't intend breeding from any of them :thumbsup:

 

[gracie]

DNA testing of suspect litters - the investigation that took place into the Powerful Paddy x Gracious litter has been mentioned on this site on a few occasions. It is true that the WCRA Committee were instrumental in carrying this out - however their were plenty of racers and clubs who also doubted their pedigree. I wonder what the reaction would be now if the DNA results concerning the Alamo Flyer x Graceful Chimes litter came back with markers against them, they would be dead and buried by most of you. We were lucky enough to be given the opportunity to have an independent DNA tests carried out at the same time as WCRA which proved the litter kosher and after a meeting with the KC the WCRA and the Whippet Club plus the owners of the dogs a decision was made to reinstate the passports. Rumours of some kind always seem to surround anyone who owns or breeds fast dogs. The first litter I bred from On a Promise which contained Striker caused people to mutter as I had given On a Promise a home when her owner had given up the sport and I owned a BESAPS (taken in and spayed) indeed Len and John heard committee members say when the Gracie litter was being investigated that they were 10 years to late. Most of you racing today have pups which originate to the Gracious x Paddy mating - just think if everyone had been so entrenched in their views back then and not given me the chance to prove my innocence none of you would be racing those dogs now. So lets wait and see what happen when the WCRA gets all the info in before we make up our mind to the legitimacy of this litter.

June Mc

 

[peppermint sue]

I agree with some of your comments june and yes all we can do now is wait and see.

but like you and as you already know this litter was given the chance to have a dna done in the proper manner with impartial witnesses

but the sire is no longer with us but was long before it got to this stage

I remember a conversation we had a few months ago and you felt the same as the rest of us .

at the end of the day june this is not about speed their are loads of fast dogs out their which no one has doubted .

these dogs were doubted long before they hit the track .

as for your on a promise litter most of the racers i knew back then knew pity me was spayed .

lets hope we have an end to this sorry afair sooner rather than later I for one am sick of it

 

[IanGerman]

To further the DNA debate, may I add that DNA registering alone will not be sufficient to prevent these kind of problems from re-occuring, and will be very difficult to co-ordinate and administer.

No one can tell a prospective breeder which sires she/he can choose from, and if they want to use a dog from outside the racing fraternity, it is their right to do so. And as long as it has KC registration and presumably without any Sooty Sam in it ( :- ) then it meets all current requirements. We can insist that all stud dogs be DNA tested, but how will that happen with someone coming into racing for the first time with a predigree whippet who sire has died?

IMHO we need both DNA swabs AND ear tattoos of all racing dogs to be anywhere close to keeping purity. Ear tatooing isn't wildly expensive and if all puppies in a racing litter were done, come passport time DNA could be taken and matched with the ear tattoo. As the system progresses over the years it becomes more and more robust - the fly in the ointment being of course people bringing in outside dogs. I would suggest that any dog wishing to get a racing passport should be tattoo'd and swabbed, regardless of there being no previous breeding history apart from the KC registration. For those not familiar with ear tattooing - it is painless and over with in seconds - although your little treasure will be wearing some green fur from the overspill for a week or so!

As a sport, we have - unfortunately - painted ourselves into a corner, by insisting that we race predigrees only, but then having to rely on an imperfect system (KC registration) to decide on what is pedigree and what isn't. The simplest solution by far would be to remove the word "pedigree" from our sport and accept that if a dog is within the physical limits of height and weight it is a "whippet", regardless of it's antecedants. But then K9 would lose one of it's forums and we wouldn't want that would we?! (w00t)

 

[beaker]

The cost of a DNA profile is £15, both my boys have been done, not really very much, IMO all stud dogs should be done.

just to update, the cost of a DNA profile has gone up to £25

 

[junefoster8]

Perhaps a DNA proile is irrelevant at the time of passporting if it would only become relevant if a dog was used at stud, so would the be best practice be to put this in place before a dog was used?

i agree All stud dogs should be DNA'd before going to stud, and this witnessed by the relevant people to match the passport :thumbsup:

this has all been such a sorry state of affairs and fingers crossed many lessons have been learnt along the way by both breeders, WCRA and general racers :thumbsup:

as June has said, i would not want to tattoo/micro chip my dogs, and as many of us don't breed it seems lots of expense in an already very expensive hobby.

having said that if it needs to be done then i will be happy to comply, as long as with the current situation its not a matter of "closing the stable door after the horse has bolted" so to speak.

I agree that all stud dogs should be DNA'd. I for one have thought this for along time now. WCRch Evansent been DNA'd, so his DNA is now logged with the Kennel club. I have now decided to have WCRch VC Elovado done, i was not going to as he is eleven now, but he has lots of puppy's out there so i think it's now only fair that i should get this done. Because of his age i will get my club seconder to do it for me. Its just imo and the fact that i feel its the way to go for stud dogs, and that is why i have made the decision to do this.

 

[Jane Rankin]

I had WCRCh Talk of the Devil DNA'd, the test was witnessed by my next-door-neighbour who is a solicitor. If a club seconder or vet is not available at the time to witness the test being carried out, what about considering someone who is allowed to witness human passport applications?

 

[LJH]

I had WCRCh Talk of the Devil DNA'd, the test was witnessed by my next-door-neighbour who is a solicitor. If a club seconder or vet is not available at the time to witness the test being carried out, what about considering someone who is allowed to witness human passport applications?

The flaw with this is that your solicitor friend may not recognise your dog as opposed to another similarly marked dog. So IF someone wanted to cheat the system,a .'ringer' could be used. Did your friend see you place the sample in a sealed envelope and watch you post it?

I know this is an extreme senario, I am just playing devils advocate. On the whole I am in favour and have had Xplicit tested,but didn't consider a witness at the time. Guess I just thought, at the time, trust was enough. This does need to be thought through very carefully. Perhaps the WCRA need a brainstorming exercise which might throw up a solution.

What about two officials running a stand at the champs and/or other opens. People buy a kit, fill in the paperwork, then return to the stand with the dog + passport for the sample to be taken. This is then sent by the WCRA in one batch.

Please feel free to pick holes in this idea. Perhaps this way we can find a good system