What Drives A Breed

[dawn]

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Ok  as I didnt watch Dr Who so have NO idea what went on Ill kick things off! Certainly for me, since my return to this country, the dog that I feel changed the breed or moved it into another direction was Hillsdown Fergal and I do not think that his influence can be underestimated, not only in this country but Europe too and I think that even now several generations on you can still "see" him. So for me his influence was irrefutable.I think that in this country we are lucky that the majority of our judges are breeder judges, generally looking for more than "flash and dash". I think that when you have a country where allrounders out number breeder judges a breed can be driven into an altogether different direction and you can end up with a .generic show dog, not really one thing or another but flashy and able to fly around the ring at the speed of sound.

Nicky

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Although Hillsdown Fergal himself could not be called a great show dog he certainly was a great sire, his son the fabulous Dutch Gold was both, a great show dog and a great sire.

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Yes that is so, but Dutch Gold never really reproduced himself, a lot of his progeny were very different where as Fergal you could tell his stock from others. That is having an influence on the breed.

Also I do think all rounders tend to just put up the well know winners, where a breed specialist in theory should look at the dogs not the the owners.

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What makes an 'all-rounder' an 'All-Rounder'? Many (if not most) All-Rounders judging at CC level know the major breeders in our breed as well as we all do, and to say they are more (or less) likely to judge the wrong end of the lead is, I think, as likely/unlikely as a breed specialist so doing.

 

As Patsy said Fergal's and many other stud dogs' (Madrigal/Middleman/Single Malt/Kraka etc..) get could/can be easily identified in the ring and, when judging, if that is the type of whippet you like, it is the type you are more likely to place, rather than stock from other lines. This takes us back to the indefinable nuances, where the breed standard has been met, that influence the decision making

 

As to what determines the direction a breed takes it is jointly influenced by the judges and the breeders.

Do we breed dogs to win at the shows or to a type we like (not that this is always mutually exclusive)? Maybe the reasons for this are not always as clear as they should be.

 

A 'Great Dog' (in the context of the show ring) may only be great because the judges have thought fit to award him/her the CC's and/or has had a significant influence through their progeny. Obviously this is more likely to be through the dog line rather than the bitch line.

 

It would be interesting to see the total numbers of dogs sired by the 'Top Sires' through the years and the success, or otherwise, of these dogs in the showring, not just Ch X sired 5 Ch's but as a % of the total he's sired. Similarly for the Dam lines.

 

Gay posted previously that at one time she could but a few Brindles where Fergal was not in the pedigree. (My initial wonder was how many Fawns / Parti's etc he appears in the pedigree of - for example Fergal appears several times in the pedigree of all the dogs here at Aphrael irrespective of their colour) Does that make him a great dog?

 

Winning BIS at any show does not mean THAT dog is a great dog only that it has beaten ALL other dogs On THE Day - conversely a dog that doesn't win well (Fergal? ) may be a great dog for the breed or not depending on your point of view.

.

Apologies for my (in)coherent ramblings

 

[seaspot_run]

I have found breeder/judges to have just as many biases and be just as prejudiced for and against certain breeders or bloodlines (in some cases MORE) than all-breed judges. I feel all-breed judges in the USA are influenced more by advertising, but breeder-judges carry a lot more baggage (personal and emotional) into the ring with them when they judge an entry in their own country.

And even if they don't, active breeder-judges (by which I mean those who are still very active in breeding and showing themselves), are more open to that sort of charge of putting up their friends than an all-breed judge is. The all-breed judge probably has no friends in your breed, and so can't be said to be putting them up. Or putting up the puppies of the dog they just bred to. Etc.

My favorite kind of judge is someone who breeds a related breed and has spent a lot time WATCHING and learning about my breed and has a feel for it because they are also sighthound breeders. I think those people often make the best judges and I tend to look for them on slates and try to support them as I feel they have more insight into our breed than most, but don't have the personal ties to individuals who might be in their ring. My second favorite are the Hound Group specialists--there is much to be said for a good hound man or woman who has dedicated themselves to the Hound Group and who loves Hounds. My least favorite are the ex-professional handlers who were never breeders of anything, and judges from the Toy, Terrier, and Non-sporting groups because I think those judges tend to emphasize relatively unimportant cosmetics and showmanship at the expense of functional qualities and soundness. Breeder-judges run the gamut--there are some I think do a great job and would put up their worst enemy to Best in Show if he had the best dog and others who I think have a "list" of people and bloodlines that are "ok to put up" and so are among the very worst showring experiences one can have if one is not on the "ok list".

But there are always exceptions! I just showed to an ex-handler and I thought he really loved Whippets and had tried very hard to come up with a consistent point of view which he then applied very fairly in the ring--with the result that some unknown handlers beat some famous ones. So, he was actually better than some of the breeder-judges that I have shown under in the last few years. I could at least follow him and I knew why the dogs I showed and did well with did well and why those who were left unplaced or placed low were standing where they were. I can't always say that about a breeder/judge--it often seems they are just passing it around to make sure that there are more people who aren't mad at them after the show.

There are two things that drive a breed. The breeders are first and foremost, because the judges can only choose from what breeders bring them. They can improve judging by not putting dogs in the ring who aren't of high quality, and the ones who have the money and time and high profile to get the extra look and really campaign a dog need to be judicious in what they campaign and advertise, as the top winners do shape consensus tastes and opinions.

The second thing is mentoring and judge education. Breeders who are successful need to mentor both new people and judges and do it in a way that develops an appreciation of the breed as a whole. Judges education can be shocking over here. I have been at seminars where it was pretty clear that the breeder who was doing the educating was educating the prospective judges that their dogs were all great, and the faults of their competitors too glaring to reward. I have strong opinions on this. Judges Education is not an opportunity to pimp your own dogs and kennel! Like seraphina, I can pretty much tell who has done the mentoring by listening to a new judge talk about the breed. A breeder who has nice underlines but bad heads will educate judges that heads don't matter at all, and one who hates blue dilutes will educate judges that a black eye is among the most important things to look for. :rant:

 

[UKUSA]

I suppose as I think Richard has said it depends on how you define the word GREAT, is it about show ring success? Well that can be part of it, is it about the number of winning progeny produced, maybe, or is it about that one very special dog that everyone in the breed acknowledges as the closest to their ideal?

I prefer breeder judges, I have shown under all the other kind but for me the breeder judge is the top of my list. To judge at the top level in this country is not an easy achievement , many hoops have to be jumped through, a lot of money spent driving around the country and even then you cannot be sure that you will get passed. So for me I would rather have a breed person who has poured their heart and soul into the breed rather than someone who wants to add Whippets to their c.v because it looks good and will get them overseas appointments.

As for breeders and judges driving a breed. I dont think that all rounders drive the breed in this country as they may do in the U.S and I think that the reason for this is that for the most part judges in the U.S, be they breeder, hound specialist or allrounder are not held accountable for their decisions , they do not have to explain why they placed a dog with straight shoulders or a narrow front etc over a dog that was infinitely better in all departments, so I think that yes, those kind of judges do drive a breed and that is how lesser dogs get made up thus devaluing the title of Champion.

Nicky

 

[T Hoare]

I suppose as I think Richard has said it depends on how you define the word GREAT, is it about show ring success? Well that can be part of it, is it about the number of winning progeny produced, maybe, or is it about that one very special dog that everyone in the breed acknowledges as the closest to their ideal?I prefer breeder judges, I have shown under all the other kind but for me the breeder judge is the top of my list. To judge at the top level in this country is not an easy achievement , many hoops have to be jumped through, a lot of money spent driving around the country and even then you cannot be sure that you will get passed. So for me I would rather have a breed person who has poured their heart and soul into the breed rather than someone who wants to add Whippets to their c.v because it looks good and will get them overseas appointments.As for breeders and judges driving a breed. I dont think that all rounders drive the breed in this country as they may do in the U.S and I think that the reason for this is that for the most part judges in the U.S, be they breeder, hound specialist or allrounder are not held accountable for their  decisions , they do not have to explain why they placed a dog with straight shoulders or  a narrow front etc over a dog that was  infinitely better in all departments, so I think that yes, those kind of judges do drive a breed and that is how lesser dogs get made up thus devaluing the title of Champion.

Nicky

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Very well put Nicky.

I am still thinking of what I want to say about your original question.

Richard

Your text is very difficult to read in big blue :wacko: but I got there in the end :sweating:

 

[bertha]

I don't quite understand the bit about Gay Robertson in your very blue thread John, I agree with Tracey it is difficult to read.

There have been many unfluential stud dogs in the breed going back years, also some great brood bitches.

These animals will appear time and time again in various blood lines, it really does depend on what type of whippet you like, the type you breed, it is all as they say "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

As for what type of judge, a fair and honest judge who looks only at the dogs!!!!!!!!!

:- "

 

[seaspot_run]

Just because a judge puts a dog up doesn't mean everyone has to breed to it.

It's still the people who are breeders who determine the direction of the breed. I can think of many examples here in the US of dogs who put up a very average win record who were very popular with breeders because they consistently produced certain desired qualities, and dogs who had a big high national ranking who were seldom used. The lack of big glamorous wins by the former was offset by their obvious ability to produce quality winners, and in the case of the latter, either breeders saw some major fault that the judges didn't, or the first litters out of those top winners weren't very inspiring, so their stud careers never really took hold.

Judges don't drive a breed, it's the breeders who make the choices who will be used. There are big winning kennels here who seldom get an outside bitch although the kennels' dogs do very well at shows. There are smaller kennels with modest win records at all-breed shows who are greatly in demand for puppies and stud service from their fellow breeders.

 

[UKUSA]

Just because a judge puts a dog up doesn't mean everyone has to breed to it.
It's still the people who are breeders who determine the direction of the breed. I can think of many examples here in the US of dogs who put up a very average win record who were very popular with breeders because they consistently produced certain desired qualities, and dogs who had a big high national ranking who were seldom used.  The lack of big glamorous wins by the former was offset by their obvious ability to produce quality winners, and in the case of the latter, either breeders saw some major fault that the judges didn't, or the first litters out of those top winners weren't very inspiring, so their stud careers never really took hold.

Judges don't drive a breed, it's the breeders who make the choices who will be used. There are big winning kennels here who seldom get an outside bitch although the kennels' dogs do very well at shows.  There are smaller kennels with modest win records at all-breed shows who are greatly in demand for puppies and stud service from their fellow breeders.

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I don't think that's quite what I mean. You are absolutely right, you don't have to use a dog just because a judge has put it up. I remember a top winning Bichon in the U.S who was very "well owned", top professional handler money no object, he became the NO1 dog in the U.S BUT Bichon people didn't like him and I never saw any of his progeny, he was not used.All rounders and heavy advertising sent him to the top. We are probably saying the same thing. My feeling is that something a breed specialist would not entertain, an all rounder will allow and not always wisely.

Nicky

 

[anniewhippet]

Out of interest.....what or who do you think has influenced the breed over the last 20/30 years when you look at the pictures on another topic 'Turning Back The Clock'.

 

[dawn]

I don't quite understand the bit about Gay Robertson in your very blue thread John,

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[SIZE=14pt]You've been talking to Edith Newton! :cheers: [/SIZE]

 

The bit about Gay is in regard to a post where she said

I recently did a database search for brindle dogs with stud book numbers aged 10 or less who did not have Hillsdown Fergal in their pedigree. -

I was merely wondering how many non-brindles in the stud book have Fergal in their pedigree.

 

[dawn]

BTW - I am not suggesting Gay does a search- I am merely making a comment/point that a sire can appear in many pedigrees and appears in more & more as years go by albeit more removed from the immediate sire & dam

 

[T Hoare]

off topic - Richard that font size is easier to read :thumbsup: and I wondered where the john bit came from :wacko:

 

[larruu]

FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE I PREFER ALL ROUNDERS TO BREED SPECIALISTS.

BREED SPECIALISTS IN MY HUMBLE OPINION INVARIABLY HAVE TOO MANY FRIENDS, AQUAINTANCES AND THE DOYENS TO APPEASE, ALL ROUNDERS LESS SO . I HAVE ALWAYS DONE BETTER UNDER ALL ROUNDERS AND OVERSEAS JUDGES. I HAVE, IT SHOULD BE SAID, ONLY BEEN IN THE BREED FOR FOUR YEARS.

DEVIATING SLIGHTLY - SEASPOT RUN I WOULD LIKE TO COMPLIMENT YOU ON YOUR EMINENTLY SENSIBLE AND ELOQUENT OPINIONS.NOT JUST ON THIS THREAD,BUT IN OTHERS WHERE YOU HAVE GIVEN YOUR VIEWS.

 

[T Hoare]

FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE I PREFER ALL ROUNDERS TO BREED SPECIALISTS.BREED SPECIALISTS IN MY HUMBLE OPINION INVARIABLY HAVE TOO MANY FRIENDS, AQUAINTANCES AND THE DOYENS TO APPEASE, ALL ROUNDERS LESS SO . I HAVE ALWAYS DONE BETTER UNDER ALL ROUNDERS AND OVERSEAS JUDGES. I HAVE, IT SHOULD BE SAID, ONLY BEEN IN THE BREED FOR FOUR YEARS.

DEVIATING SLIGHTLY - SEASPOT RUN I WOULD LIKE TO COMPLIMENT YOU ON YOUR EMINENTLY SENSIBLE AND ELOQUENT OPINIONS.NOT JUST ON THIS THREAD,BUT IN OTHERS WHERE YOU HAVE GIVEN YOUR VIEWS.

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So we should all judge a breed other than the one we show/own then.

Also we aren't allowed to speak to anyone at a show when we exhibit.

 

[patsy]

FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE I PREFER ALL ROUNDERS TO BREED SPECIALISTS.BREED SPECIALISTS IN MY HUMBLE OPINION INVARIABLY HAVE TOO MANY FRIENDS, AQUAINTANCES AND THE DOYENS TO APPEASE, ALL ROUNDERS LESS SO . I HAVE ALWAYS DONE BETTER UNDER ALL ROUNDERS AND OVERSEAS JUDGES. I HAVE, IT SHOULD BE SAID, ONLY BEEN IN THE BREED FOR FOUR YEARS.

DEVIATING SLIGHTLY - SEASPOT RUN I WOULD LIKE TO COMPLIMENT YOU ON YOUR EMINENTLY SENSIBLE AND ELOQUENT OPINIONS.NOT JUST ON THIS THREAD,BUT IN OTHERS WHERE YOU HAVE GIVEN YOUR VIEWS.

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I think that you will find the good dogs win under specialist and all rounders, I think that you do breed specialist a great injustice with your comments. As you say you have been in the breed for four years, these people have given a life time dedication to the breed and through their experience of breeding for this length of time you would expect them to show good dogs, and yes along the way make good friends, there are dog show friends and there are very special friends, I think you will find that these special friends do not show under each other, Nicky and I have a special friendship and would not dream of showing under each other.

We all started somewhere and yes there were the doyens, if you stay in the breed and dedicate yourself to it you will be a doyen one day what will you have to say then.

 

[T Hoare]

FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE I PREFER ALL ROUNDERS TO BREED SPECIALISTS.BREED SPECIALISTS IN MY HUMBLE OPINION INVARIABLY HAVE TOO MANY FRIENDS, AQUAINTANCES AND THE DOYENS TO APPEASE, ALL ROUNDERS LESS SO . I HAVE ALWAYS DONE BETTER UNDER ALL ROUNDERS AND OVERSEAS JUDGES. I HAVE, IT SHOULD BE SAID, ONLY BEEN IN THE BREED FOR FOUR YEARS.

DEVIATING SLIGHTLY - SEASPOT RUN I WOULD LIKE TO COMPLIMENT YOU ON YOUR EMINENTLY SENSIBLE AND ELOQUENT OPINIONS.NOT JUST ON THIS THREAD,BUT IN OTHERS WHERE YOU HAVE GIVEN YOUR VIEWS.

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The non specialists have to take the same training(seminars etc) as specialists then are 'passed' by breed clubs(specialists) before then being approved by KC.

Your dog won his stud book number under a breed specialist.

 

[quintessence]

http://www.bernesemountaindog.com.au/foundations.htm

I found a llink to this article titled 'Seven Foundations to Successful Dog Breeding' when I was searching for something else, this happens regularly to me, I spend so much time reading things which are not pertinent to my research. :- "

I thought it well worth reading but as I do not have permission to copy can only post the link, however, I felt others might find it interesting and thought provoking.

Jenny

 

[UKUSA]

FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE I PREFER ALL ROUNDERS TO BREED SPECIALISTS.BREED SPECIALISTS IN MY HUMBLE OPINION INVARIABLY HAVE TOO MANY FRIENDS, AQUAINTANCES AND THE DOYENS TO APPEASE, ALL ROUNDERS LESS SO . I HAVE ALWAYS DONE BETTER UNDER ALL ROUNDERS AND OVERSEAS JUDGES. I HAVE, IT SHOULD BE SAID, ONLY BEEN IN THE BREED FOR FOUR YEARS.

DEVIATING SLIGHTLY - SEASPOT RUN I WOULD LIKE TO COMPLIMENT YOU ON YOUR EMINENTLY SENSIBLE AND ELOQUENT OPINIONS.NOT JUST ON THIS THREAD,BUT IN OTHERS WHERE YOU HAVE GIVEN YOUR VIEWS.

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I think that you will find the good dogs win under specialist and all rounders, I think that you do breed specialist a great injustice with your comments. As you say you have been in the breed for four years, these people have given a life time dedication to the breed and through their experience of breeding for this length of time you would expect them to show good dogs, and yes along the way make good friends, there are dog show friends and there are very special friends, I think you will find that these special friends do not show under each other, Nicky and I have a special friendship and would not dream of showing under each other.

We all started somewhere and yes there were the doyens, if you stay in the breed and dedicate yourself to it you will be a doyen one day what will you have to say then.

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I was waiting for someone to come on and say about their preference for all rounders and overseas judges to home grown breed specialists, twas ever thus. I cannot recall the number of times that I have heard that and always from those new to the show ring. Do not think for one minute that all rounders and overseas judges don't know whose who in the zoo! Their placings through the classes may differ slightly to those of a breed specialist but invariably they will end up with the same dogs because a good dog is a good dog no matter who is judging it. If a dog is pulled from obscurity by one of these judges and given top honours there is generally a reason why that dog has languished there and the chances are it will not hit the heights again. It will have nothing to do with "friends looking after friends" more that the breed specialists have not liked the dog enough. We are a very numerically strong breed and top honours are hard fought for, the cream will always rise to the top!

Karen does speak well but showing dogs in this country is TOTALLY different to showing dogs in the U.S. This is STILL the hardest country to make a dog up in, this is STILL the most sought after title, there are no "cheap champions " in the Whippet ring here, we without doubt have the toughest system in large part in my opinion to the dominance of the breed specialist and long may it continue. The rest of the world may not be beating a path to our door anymore to buy our dogs but the British title is still the most coverted in the world.

Nicky

 

[bertha]

off topic - Richard that font size is easier to read :thumbsup: and I wondered where the john bit came from :wacko:

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Brain not working properly sorry Richard! :blink:

 

[bertha]

I don't quite understand the bit about Gay Robertson in your very blue thread John,

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[SIZE=14pt]You've been talking to Edith Newton! :cheers: [/SIZE]

 

The bit about Gay is in regard to a post where she said

I recently did a database search for brindle dogs with stud book numbers aged 10 or less who did not have Hillsdown Fergal in their pedigree. -

I was merely wondering how many non-brindles in the stud book have Fergal in their pedigree.

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For Richard not Dawn

I have not been talking to any to the Newton family apart from hello at a show, I really do not understand why you should say that. Explain please!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kerrie.picolo@btinternet.com]

Well, it seems a while since we ve had a good old discussion on here so how about this, for a new topic. What do people think?What drives a breed and moves it forward? Is it a great dog or bitch whose mark left on the breed is irrefutable. What part do judges play, specialist versus all rounder , that in itself is interesting as probably we in this country have more breeder judges than I believe our friends in Europe or the U.S, so how great is the influence of the all rounder  in these countries? And how do exhibitors feel here? Specialist or all rounder? Do judges "change" a breed or do the breeders? So what do you all think?

Nicky

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What a good topic Nicky, its been so boring of late.

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So why havnt YOU given us something exciting to read then Patsy :lol: Im sure you must know some funny stories :wacko:

I too watch Dr Who and im not sure what it was about either :wacko: , changing the subject :- " I do so love Cpt Jack :wub: ok I do know hes gay

will have to think about reply too , brain dead at mo

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