What Drives A Breed

[T Hoare]

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One thing I have been thinking of since my post of 22:00 lastnight is:

I think a Male has 'more of a chance' to make an impact on a breed than a Female.

One of my reasonings for this would be a female would have 2 or maybe 3 litters of say 12-18 pups(maybe more) of which only 2 or 3 would 'shine'. During the time out for maternal duties she would be at a dissadvantage also.

Whereas a male could be used a fair bit more and over a longer period of time. With this in mind he could potentially sire numerous pups that would 'shine'. He also would be able to show without timeout thus having the advantage over the female.

I hope I have explained this for others to understand.

 

[neave]

Just out of interest does anyone think that Walkabout Whippets had an influence of some sort on Whippets ave always been a bit of an admire of Shelagh Thompson although i am too young to remember the likes of Ch Walkabout Warrior King (although my dad used him on one of his bitches), Ch Walkabout Whirlpool of Baxendale, American Ch Walkabout Wing and a Prayer and i dont know if anyone has any Walkabouts on their peds? My dads line with Walkabout was sadly broken when we lost a litter of 10 puppies and Ch Walkabouts Warrior King daughter our bitch Jess all died :( 

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How sad

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It was a very sad time for us !! the puppies all died inside of Jess and she sadly passed away 2 days later

 

[bertha]

I bred a litter by Ch Walkabout Woodpecker of Rivedo, he is nearly 12. Woodpecker was by Ch Nimrodel Wanderer, he was a very nice dog and threw some nice stock.

I agree with Tracey, males will have more influence than bitches, that is just the nature of things.

Mrs Thompson now lives in Devon and her last litter are now six month old so will be out in the ring soon.

 

[seaspot_run]

Couldn't a dam who produced a number of exceptional sons who were widely used and cornerstone sires be said to have had even greater influence than any one son of hers did? An "old-time" example that comes to mind for me was Ch. Greenbrae Laguna Lucia.

She produced Am.Ch. Greenbrae Barn Dance, and you will NOT find a show pedigree in the US today who does not go back to Barney, in many cases, multiple times. I think it is fair to say he had the greatest impact of any import on the modern American Whippet.

She produced UK/Can.Am.Ch. Coveydown Greenbrae Wayfarer, who had an immense influence on the development of the breed in Canada through the Winterfold kennel and also sired a lot of American champions who were used and carried forward.

And remaining in the UK was Ch. Samarkands Greenbrae Tarragon, who should need no history lesson given on a UK board.

If someone asked me the individual Whippet who had the most genetic influence on the breed worldwide, she would be at or near the top of my list.

 

[UKUSA]

Good point Karen and I would have to agree with you, too often the bitches tend to be for gotten. Your bit about Barney sent me of in search of my book by Louis Pegram to find not only the picture of him but as you had also mentioned the Winterfold kennel to look at the picture of Winterfold Bold Bid, was nt she the bitch who Cal Perry "used " as his blueprint, I think that I read in an interview years ago?

For those interested The Complete Whippet by Louis Pegram is an American book that charts the start of the Whippet in North America up until the70s.

Nicky

 

[playawhile]

Couldn't a dam who produced a number of exceptional sons who were widely used and cornerstone sires be said to have had even greater influence than any one son of hers did?  An "old-time" example that comes to mind for me was Ch. Greenbrae Laguna Lucia.
She produced Am.Ch. Greenbrae Barn Dance, and you will NOT find a show pedigree in the US today who does not go back to Barney, in many cases, multiple times.  I think it is fair to say he had the greatest impact of any import on the modern American Whippet.

She produced UK/Can.Am.Ch. Coveydown Greenbrae Wayfarer, who had an immense influence on the development of the breed in Canada through the Winterfold kennel and also sired a lot of American champions who were used and carried forward.

And remaining in the UK was Ch. Samarkands Greenbrae Tarragon, who should need no history lesson given on a UK board. 

If someone asked me the individual Whippet who had the most genetic influence on the breed worldwide, she would be at or near the top of my list.

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I agree with you on this Karen!! I actually wrote an article in our Swedish whippet club publication a few years ago about her, as her influence on the breed is so deep. Now in the days of computers it’s possible to do calculations to see how many times a single individual appears in a dog’s pedigree and Lucia is there thousands of times through her famous sons!! Tarragon Lucia’s son is present in todays whippets in both the UK and Sweden surprisingly many times considering he passed away in the beginning of the seventies!!

Henrik

 

[patsy]

Couldn't a dam who produced a number of exceptional sons who were widely used and cornerstone sires be said to have had even greater influence than any one son of hers did?  An "old-time" example that comes to mind for me was Ch. Greenbrae Laguna Lucia.
She produced Am.Ch. Greenbrae Barn Dance, and you will NOT find a show pedigree in the US today who does not go back to Barney, in many cases, multiple times.  I think it is fair to say he had the greatest impact of any import on the modern American Whippet.

She produced UK/Can.Am.Ch. Coveydown Greenbrae Wayfarer, who had an immense influence on the development of the breed in Canada through the Winterfold kennel and also sired a lot of American champions who were used and carried forward.

And remaining in the UK was Ch. Samarkands Greenbrae Tarragon, who should need no history lesson given on a UK board. 

If someone asked me the individual Whippet who had the most genetic influence on the breed worldwide, she would be at or near the top of my list.

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Of course most people will know what an influence Tarragon had on the famous Dondelayo kennel, a kennel that was inbred to him, it was fitting that he spent the last years of his life at Dondelayo. One of my favourite photos is of Tarragon lying down flanked by his daughter the exquisite Ch Dondelayo Duet, Duet was also his double granddaughter. The early Oakbarks were very much influenced by his daughter Samarkands Sun Corona, and by using his lovely son Ch Samarkands Sun Courtier. Not forgetting the strong Glenbervie kennel of the most beautiful bitches produced by his son Ch. Cockrow Tarquogan of Glenbervie, and down from Glenbervie the Peperones who have an unbroken bitch line.

Although Taragon and Barn Dance were half brothers they were not alike, in fact although he was Laguna bred I don't think Tarragon had a Laguna look. Not forgetting that his daughter Ch. Tiara sister to Duet was the foundation of the Courthills, Roger also had a brother Dondelayo Repetition who I used and produced the lovely Ch Lowglen Holly Go Lightly.

 

[anniewhippet]

:thumbsup: Now this is one interesting thread, keep it up as its a brilliant 'history' lesson and should get us all thinking & digging out those old books & pedigrees. I think Duet was the picture of curves & flowing lines & a credit to Annes kennel

 

[seaspot_run]

Good point Karen and I would have to agree with you, too often the bitches tend to be for gotten. Your bit about Barney sent me of in search of my book by Louis Pegram to find not only the picture of him but as you had also mentioned the Winterfold kennel to look at the picture of Winterfold Bold Bid, was nt she the bitch who Cal Perry  "used " as his blueprint, I think that I read in an interview years ago?For those interested The Complete Whippet by Louis Pegram is an American book that charts the start of the Whippet in North America up until the70s.

Nicky

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The Winterfold bitch you are thinking of is Ch. Winterfold Bold Bid--certainly among the top winning bitches of her era--I think she won her last Best in Show handled by a very young Debbie Butt when she was around 9??? (not sure about that, but pretty sure she was up there).

Bold Bid was genetically influential through certain offspring of hers, but I would say she was also definitely a "tastemaker". She was before my time, and from photographs, I would say she was certainly flashy and glamorous and may have shaped the American tastes which begin to go heavily towards the flashy and perfectly-marked brindle and whites during that period, but what I cannot see in photos is the star quality she must have possessed, given the lavish praise of .her by many of the older breeders who were interviewed during my first few years in Whippets. But she must have been very special in the flesh, to have garnered praise from so many.

So, Bold Bid might be an example of a great show dog who "drove" the breed, especially here in the US.

Probably her most influential offspring was Ch. Morshor's Appraxin Ariel, who sired what may very well be the most extreme example of American show style, and an enormously influential sire, Ch. Misty Moor's Chalmondoley. "Chummy" was, in addition to having Wayfarer on the top side of his pedigree, a Barn Dance Grandson. I was struck by the number of times Laguna Lucia's children showed up in the pedigrees of our most influential dogs of the 70's back when I was just learning about Whippets and lines. I resolved to try to learn more about her, but couldn't seem to find much by way of description, and many of the photos are blurry (there's a sharp one on the Archives).

It is interesting to me that this little solid fawn English bitch appears over and over in the pedigrees of our most extreme and flashy and high-glamour, swan-necked American sires and winners. All I can tell from photos is that she was smooth-bodied and may have had a bit more bend of stifle and rear angulation than some of her contemporaries. Of course, Barney's sire Laguna Ligonier is another cornerstone producer, but it is hard to tell from looking at his photos where the extreme necks and length of body of many of his US descendants came from, so I have always thought that Lucia must have had a lot to do with that.

 

[anniewhippet]

Good point Karen and I would have to agree with you, too often the bitches tend to be for gotten. Your bit about Barney sent me of in search of my book by Louis Pegram to find not only the picture of him but as you had also mentioned the Winterfold kennel to look at the picture of Winterfold Bold Bid, was nt she the bitch who Cal Perry  "used " as his blueprint, I think that I read in an interview years ago?For those interested The Complete Whippet by Louis Pegram is an American book that charts the start of the Whippet in North America up until the70s.

Nicky

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The Winterfold bitch you are thinking of is Ch. Winterfold Bold Bid--certainly among the top winning bitches of her era--I think she won her last Best in Show handled by a very young Debbie Butt when she was around 9??? (not sure about that, but pretty sure she was up there).

Bold Bid was genetically influential through certain offspring of hers, but I would say she was also definitely a "tastemaker". She was before my time, and from photographs, I would say she was certainly flashy and glamorous and may have shaped the American tastes which begin to go heavily towards the flashy and perfectly-marked brindle and whites during that period, but what I cannot see in photos is the star quality she must have possessed, given the lavish praise of .her by many of the older breeders who were interviewed during my first few years in Whippets. But she must have been very special in the flesh, to have garnered praise from so many.

So, Bold Bid might be an example of a great show dog who "drove" the breed, especially here in the US.

Probably her most influential offspring was Ch. Morshor's Appraxin Ariel, who sired what may very well be the most extreme example of American show style, and an enormously influential sire, Ch. Misty Moor's Chalmondoley. "Chummy" was, in addition to having Wayfarer on the top side of his pedigree, a Barn Dance Grandson. I was struck by the number of times Laguna Lucia's children showed up in the pedigrees of our most influential dogs of the 70's back when I was just learning about Whippets and lines. I resolved to try to learn more about her, but couldn't seem to find much by way of description, and many of the photos are blurry (there's a sharp one on the Archives).

It is interesting to me that this little solid fawn English bitch appears over and over in the pedigrees of our most extreme and flashy and high-glamour, swan-necked American sires and winners. All I can tell from photos is that she was smooth-bodied and may have had a bit more bend of stifle and rear angulation than some of her contemporaries. Of course, Barney's sire Laguna Ligonier is another cornerstone producer, but it is hard to tell from looking at his photos where the extreme necks and length of body of many of his US descendants came from, so I have always thought that Lucia must have had a lot to do with that.

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To quote The Whippet by CH Douglas-Todd about USA Ch. Laguna Lucky Lad ...." A flashily marked dog he made a strong appeal 'on the other side' " and from his pictures he looks to have the length of neck & flashy colouring and to me quite a 'glamour' boy.

 

[gajo]

To answer the first question- I think its a combination of the three but surely the most dominant of these would have to be the breeders- after all it is they who ultimately decide which judges to enter under( if they also exhibit), which judges opinions they value and act on, and then ultimately which dogs to use, which bitches to breed from and finally which puppies to keep for breeding and showing.

Given that breeders are so influential the above decisions can effect the breed, positively or negatively for years to come.

We've only been in the breed for 10 or so years and have been fortunate to have been able to use the years of expertise of some very established breeders and bloodlines. Having said that our own opinions have changed as we've learnt and in having kept an open mind and ear to the knowledge of those with more experience has been really important.

To illustrate this let me use a real example of how we as breeders have changed perspective as our experience has grown and we've listened and tried to learn from others.

About 6 years ago (we'd had whippets for a very long time by then- a whole 4 years :- " ) when we exhibited under a well known breed specialist judge with international experience. The judge awards tickets in the UK, and bred whippets behind the pedigrees of some of todays leading kennels in the UK- we don't get too many opinions like that down here in Australia. The judge placed other dogs much more highly than ours, and put up some dogs that we with our 4 years of experience didn't rate very highly. Unfortunately we didn't get any critiques or get to hear the judge's reasons for his placings. At the time we didn't value his opinions much and certainly weren't going to use his judgements as a basis for any of our decisions about the breeding of whippets.

More recently we exhibited under this judge again, one of our dogs did very well and a couple of our bitches did poorly. This time around we had enough experience to work out what it was that this particular judge valued in type and other key qualities of the breed. This time around we had the chance to talk with him after his judging and hear his thoughts and reasons for his placings. We learnt that he wanted more shape than we orginally would have thought ideal in a whippet, he wanted dogs who moved very soundly coming and going at the walk or very slow trot("didn't want them to fall apart- as he put it) and he wanted whippets in firm condition.

Now 10 years down the track from our start we still wouldn't take on everything that this judge thought ideal but at least we had a bit more knowledge upon which to make an assessment of his opinion next to our own. We certainly valued his decisions a lot more because we could understand where he was coming from with his placings and were able to see more merit in his winners than we had 6 years earlier.

But at the end of the day it won't be that (former) breeder judge - or the many others we've exhibitor under or will in the future - , or any single dog or bitch, who determines what happens in influencing the breed here. It will ultimately be us as the breeders who make the decisions, good and bad, that shape the whippet into the future.

 

[UKUSA]

To answer the first question- I think its a combination of the three but surely the most dominant of these would have to be the breeders- after all it is they who ultimately decide which judges to enter under( if they also exhibit), which judges opinions they value and act on, and then ultimately which dogs to use, which bitches to breed from and finally which puppies to keep for breeding and showing.
Given that breeders are so influential the above decisions can effect the breed, positively or negatively for years to come.

We've only been in the breed for 10 or so years and have been fortunate to have been able to use the years of expertise of some very established breeders and bloodlines. Having said that our own opinions have changed as we've learnt and in having kept an open mind and ear to the knowledge of those with more experience has been really important.

To illustrate this let me use a real example of how we as breeders have changed perspective as our experience has grown and we've listened and tried to learn from others.

About 6 years ago (we'd had whippets for a very long time by then- a whole 4 years :- " ) when we exhibited under a well known breed specialist judge with international experience. The judge awards tickets in the UK, and bred whippets behind the pedigrees of some of todays leading kennels in the UK- we don't get too many opinions like that down here in Australia. The judge placed other dogs much more highly than ours, and put up some dogs that we with our 4 years of experience didn't rate very highly. Unfortunately we didn't get any critiques or get to hear the judge's reasons for his placings. At the time we didn't value his opinions much and certainly weren't going to use his judgements as a basis for any of our decisions about the breeding of whippets.

More recently we exhibited under this judge again, one of our dogs did very well and a couple of our bitches did poorly. This time around we had enough experience to work out what it was that this particular judge valued in type and other key qualities of the breed. This time around we had the chance to talk with him after his judging and hear his thoughts and reasons for his placings. We learnt that he wanted more shape than we orginally would have thought ideal in a whippet, he wanted dogs who moved very soundly coming and going at the walk or very slow trot("didn't want them to fall apart- as he put it) and he wanted whippets in firm condition.

Now 10 years down the track from our start we still wouldn't take on everything that this judge thought ideal but at least we had a bit more knowledge upon which to make an assessment of his opinion next to our own. We certainly valued his decisions a lot more because we could understand where he was coming from with his placings and were able to see more merit in his winners than we had 6 years earlier.

But at the end of the day it won't be that (former) breeder judge - or the many others we've exhibitor under or will in the future - , or any single dog or bitch, who determines what happens in influencing the breed here. It will ultimately be us as the breeders who make the decisions, good and bad, that shape the whippet into the future.

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I think that if you live in a country that is dominated by breeder judges then yes I think and quite rightly so that the breeders do drive the breed but if you live in a country dominated by allrounders then the allrounder wields a lot of power and under systems where champions are made up a lot easier than in this country a large number of mediocre dogs slip through the net and become champions. In my opinion then what happens is that the owners of these dogs decide to breed on perpetuating the same faults and along come these judges again and away we go so nothing changes. No one takes these people off to one side to point out that they might want to go a dog with a better front, after all why should they listen, they ve just made their dog up and as the allrounder does not have to write a critique and explain why A beat B so away he goes to continue wreaking havoc!

Yes Karen I must admit that from the photos that I saw of Bold Bid I wondered as well but as you say she was spoken of in reverential tones and quite probably she was one you had to see in the flesh. I do remember Chalmondelay I think that he was at the end of his career when I was in the States. A dog that I think really drove the breed in the States was Ch Delacreme De La Renta, maybe the start of those long necks though I do recall Cathy Gaidos saying to Mary Dukes that you could have to long a neck!

Nicky

 

[seaspot_run]

Yes Karen I must admit that from the photos that I saw of Bold Bid I wondered as well but as you say she was spoken of in reverential tones and quite probably she was one you had to see in the flesh. I do remember Chalmondelay I think that he was at the end of his career when I was in the States. A dog that I think really drove the breed in the States was Ch Delacreme De La Renta, maybe the start of those long necks though I do recall Cathy Gaidos saying to Mary Dukes that you could have to long a neck!Nicky

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Chalmondoley goes back three times to Barney and his brother Wayfarer, and "Oscar" goes back 12 times to Barney/Wayfarer, and I really do think Lucia/Ligonier was the wellspring from whence the long American necks sprouted. You didn't see that here prior to his importation.

And with regard to neck, at the time Oscar was just coming out, we at Surrey Hill were getting absolute SWANS simply by doubling and tripling up on Chalmondoley and Barn Dance. No doubt the Americans were more enthusiastic and tended to select for longer necks than others did elsewhere, working with the same gene pools, but that was the source of the long-necked Nile, so to speak. Oscar was far from being the only source of long necks in the USA. It probably really began to be cemented when Wayfarer and Barn Dance descendants were crossed, repeatedly, resulting in dogs like Chalmondoley, who I believe more than any other sire, has served to create a uniquely American style. He is still controversial, as he was in his lifetime, but he is also unavoidable if you want to breed winning show stock here.

 

[seaspot_run]

Chalmondoley goes back three times to Barney and his brother Wayfarer, and "Oscar" goes back 12 times to Barney/Wayfarer, and I really do think Lucia/Ligonier was the wellspring from whence the long American necks sprouted. You didn't see that here prior to his importation.

Sorry to be unclear--I meant prior to bringing over Barney and Wayfarer--the two sons of that litter.

Now, Fleetfoot was a great winner and sire over here and he put a lot of shape on his offspring, but I wouldn't say he produced the same sort of neck.

Laguna Lucky Lad was a very elegant dog, but not as genetically influential.

 

[UKUSA]

I have always felt that the American Whippets excelled in, amongst other things, fabulous long necks, so no nothing new there but it certainly seems that Oscar had a longer neck than most! As has been said before when the Americans get it right ,no one can touch them.

Looking through both British and American books on the breed it is quite fascinating to see how the breed has evolved and moved off into different directions. Both sides of the pond had kennels whose type was instantly recognisable not so now, is that because of the explosion of popularity and the resultant over breeding? I dont know if that has happened in the States but certainly it has happened here.

Nicky

 

[bertha]

A "fabulous long neck" is incorrect! for a whippet to work and pick up a hare or rabbit, the last thing you need is a "fabulous long neck" the whippet originally was a working dog, a functional animal who could pick up its prey on the run. Long neck. broken neck, overlong hind quarter, too long in loin, not functional.

Go back to Tiptree, and the rest, they were functional, Samarkands, Shalfleet, Laguna, Allgarth etc, all were true whippets.

A lot of todays whippets in the ring could not catch a rabbit. They have lost something.

Think about it. :unsure:

 

[jok]

A "fabulous long neck" is incorrect! for a whippet to work and pick up a hare or rabbit, the last thing you need is a "fabulous long neck"  the whippet originally was a working dog, a functional animal who could pick up its prey on the run. Long neck. broken neck, overlong hind quarter, too long in loin, not functional.
Go back to Tiptree, and the rest, they were functional, Samarkands, Shalfleet, Laguna, Allgarth etc, all were true whippets.

A lot of todays whippets in the ring could not catch a rabbit. They have lost something.

Think about it. :unsure:

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I always find it interesting to see the comments that a lot of Whippets in the ring could not catch a rabbit...

Why? Is this actually true?

Mine all can with ease. I have never given them any encouragement in this department (and wouldn't know how to), but Frankie in particular picks rabbits off very easily.

I expect i've strayed off topic somewhat. :- "

 

[midlanderkeith]

A "fabulous long neck" is incorrect! for a whippet to work and pick up a hare or rabbit, the last thing you need is a "fabulous long neck"  the whippet originally was a working dog, a functional animal who could pick up its prey on the run. Long neck. broken neck, overlong hind quarter, too long in loin, not functional.
Go back to Tiptree, and the rest, they were functional, Samarkands, Shalfleet, Laguna, Allgarth etc, all were true whippets.

A lot of todays whippets in the ring could not catch a rabbit. They have lost something.

Think about it. :unsure:

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Absolutely bang on our Bertha, all whippets should be allowed to do what they where bred for, to deprive them of this, is taking the whippet out of the whippet

:cheers:

 

[maggie217]

A "fabulous long neck" is incorrect! for a whippet to work and pick up a hare or rabbit, the last thing you need is a "fabulous long neck"  the whippet originally was a working dog, a functional animal who could pick up its prey on the run. Long neck. broken neck, overlong hind quarter, too long in loin, not functional.
Go back to Tiptree, and the rest, they were functional, Samarkands, Shalfleet, Laguna, Allgarth etc, all were true whippets.

A lot of todays whippets in the ring could not catch a rabbit. They have lost something.

Think about it. :unsure:

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Absolutely bang on our Bertha, all whippets should be allowed to do what they where bred for, to deprive them of this, is taking the whippet out of the whippet

:cheers:

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But Keith your Jill is beautifully bred from show stock and she certainly can catch rabbits can't she?

 

[Seraphina]

Absolutely bang on our Bertha, all whippets should be allowed to do what they where bred for, to deprive them of this, is taking the whippet out of the whippet

                      :cheers:

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But Keith your Jill is beautifully bred from show stock and she certainly can catch rabbits can't she?

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Well there are nice elegant necks without being too long, and then there are those that are getting too long.